9/12/2021 Steelers @ Bills Post Game thread

[billsherd]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

Good perspective:

 

 

Last Bills made the play (pick six) this year's Steelers made the play(blocked punt) that's the difference.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

That was the big bummer for us yesterday! What a return to action it was for us fans in a full stadium, and the noise levels reminded my family and I of the 90's levels in there. It was amazing (and our seats are at the 300 level where sound can kind of bleed off at lower levels) for the entire game. My voice is shot 😉

 

I'd put the scene commensurate to the 51-3 AFC Championship game versus Raiders in January 1991.    Most raucous environment from start (until punt block) since that, IMO.    That won't continue........might be able to get there again if they reach the AFCCG but the crowd won't be like that again in-season.  

[34-78-83]

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I'd put the scene commensurate to the 51-3 AFC Championship game versus Raiders in January 1991.    Most raucous environment from start (until punt block) since that, IMO.    That won't continue........might be able to get there again if they reach the AFCCG but the crowd won't be like that again in-season.  

That was a loud one indeed what with us all basically celebrating our first SB trip in the 2nd quarter and on, haha!

[WideNine]

The oline needs to bounce back with all of them on the same page.

 

Even when we had 4 blockers doing their job, too often there would be one on the ground rolling past Allen blown up and beat or standing around looking sheepish after missing their guy.

 

Not every play, but often enough to keep the offense from finding any rhythm.

 

With 11 and 12 personnel I wonder if the DEs take such a deep speed rush off the edges as they do on empty 5-wide sets....

 

Seems they would be vulnerable to RBs and TEs releasing into the flat behind that on either side.

 

Will be interested in seeing that game broken down by better football minds.

 

I know that 5 vs. 4-man rush should give our offense the blocking numbers advantage (on paper), but better teams were often able to pressure our front 5 last year with 4 too.

 

That is on our oline coach and Daboll to counter better. We had our chances this game, Pittsburgh capitalized on more of theirs and some pretty sketch calls on our secondary at key moments.

 

Allen plays well against Miami so have hopes for a more focused game from him and our oline.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Good perspective:

 

 

This is great perspective. It's even better if you throw in 2019 and include TD/INT:

 

2019:  13-25-139 1TD/1INT

2020:  24-43-243 2TD/1INT

2021:  30-51-270 1TD

 

 

 

[SCBills]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Good perspective:

 

 

Very interesting… 

 

Last year we seemed to figure out some things in the 2nd half.  
 

That adjustment never seemed to come this year.  
 

Still, a good tweet about how some teams just match up better against you.  

[Spun]

IMHO, over the last couple of season's I have see the Bills struggle with their running game and their pass rush.  The Bills seemed to chase Rothlisberger yesterday fairly well but we know how he is (still).  The d-line appeared gassed at the end of the game.  The running logic is to develop the run in September because it is harder to pass, pass, pass in November onward especially in O. P.  An effective run game can make Allen more dangerous to opponents.  Teams are better able to defend against the Bills if the pass overemphasized.
 

There is a lot to work on.  Much of it is fixable.  Humble pie is nasty.  Get it fixed.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

It was yards per play.

 

OK cool.  Got some data then.

 

From Sharp Football Stats.

5 WR (0,0) 1% of plays (8 plays).  Pass rate 75% Pass YPA 22.3 (Air YPA 21.5)

4 WR (1,0) 15% of plays (186 plays). Pass rate 74% Pass YPA 8.4 (Air YPA 7.4)

3 WR (1,1) 71% of plays (860 plays). Pass Rate 64% Pass YPA 7.6 (Air YPA 8.8)

2 WR (1,2) 8% of plays (91 plays).  Pass Rate 36% Pass YPA 9.6 (Air YPA 12.2)

 

Unsure why Air YPA are higher than YPA in some cases - guys running backwards trying to find some room?

 

The most successful was 5 WR, but we only ran it 8 plays.  Someone whose stat mojo is weak sauce might look at that and say "Oh, OK, look at that, we should run it more often" but the Franks Hot Sauce Stats Mojo says "danger Will Robinson when you compare two groups where one group has 10 or 100x higher numbers than another"

 

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

When you bring defenders into the box you create more space for your receivers downfield.

 

More space = RAC opportunities..........instead of every catch being followed by an immediate and violent tackle for no additional yardage.

 

They have spent a fortune on veteran WR's who specialize at getting separation..........boxing them in with 5 options in the pattern and flooding the field with pass defenders and getting them beaten to a pulp on short passes is not the best use of the $ and draft pick compensation expended on Diggs, Beasley and Sanders.

 

What you say here seems logical, not to mention that the threat of an occasional run or such might be of assistance in keeping the defense guessing.

 

20 minutes ago, Spun said:

IMHO, over the last couple of season's I have see the Bills struggle with their running game and their pass rush.  The Bills seemed to chase Rothlisberger yesterday fairly well but we know how he is (still).  The d-line appeared gassed at the end of the game.  The running logic is to develop the run in September because it is harder to pass, pass, pass in November onward especially in O. P.  An effective run game can make Allen more dangerous to opponents.  Teams are better able to defend against the Bills if the pass overemphasized.
 

There is a lot to work on.  Much of it is fixable.  Humble pie is nasty.  Get it fixed.

 

I agree with you completely.  The open question to me is whether McDermott will have a raging mad-on sufficient to persuade Daboll to work on it.  I would kinda like to be a fly on the wall for that discussion.

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think I have ever disagreed with that.

 

 

Yeah you disagreed with the dink and dunk portion of the argument...........your reasoning was the perceived matchup advantages created in coverage.

 

I overheard Jeremy White on the radio today say something about Beasley lamenting the lack of room to operate yesterday.........which would be very consistent with one of my very key points regarding the limiting nature of running 5 wide.........congesting the field makes it easier for the defense to cover as a unit.   

[BADOLBILZ]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK cool.  Got some data then.

 

From Sharp Football Stats.

5 WR (0,0) 1% of plays (8 plays).  Pass rate 75% Pass YPA 22.3 (Air YPA 21.5)

4 WR (1,0) 15% of plays (186 plays). Pass rate 74% Pass YPA 8.4 (Air YPA 7.4)

3 WR (1,1) 71% of plays (860 plays). Pass Rate 64% Pass YPA 7.6 (Air YPA 8.8)

2 WR (1,2) 8% of plays (91 plays).  Pass Rate 36% Pass YPA 9.6 (Air YPA 12.2)

 

Unsure why Air YPA are higher than YPA in some cases - guys running backwards trying to find some room?

 

The most successful was 5 WR, but we only ran it 8 plays.  Someone whose stat mojo is weak sauce might look at that and say "Oh, OK, look at that, we should run it more often" but the Franks Hot Sauce Stats Mojo says "danger Will Robinson when you compare two groups where one group has 10 or 100x higher numbers than another"

 

 

What you say here seems logical, not to mention that the threat of an occasional run or such might be of assistance in keeping the defense guessing.

 

 

I agree with you completely.  The open question to me is whether McDermott will have a raging mad-on sufficient to persuade Daboll to work on it.  I would kinda like to be a fly on the wall for that discussion.

 

 

Yeah one pass play out of 00 for every 10-11 quarters of play is probably too insignificant to note.

 

But while 00 is "5 wide".........00 is of course not the only personnel set they've run empty backfield from and send 5 players out into the pattern.   In fact it's most certainly the LEAST frequent.   We saw the results of putting a Devin Singletary outside the numbers in the passing game yesterday........less than nothing.......it's like playing with 10 players on the field.  

 

Not "quite" as bad as Kevin Gilbride running Sam Gash out to the X receiver position...........but not much different.    And hey, Daboll even ran an homage play(literally) to 2004 Gilbride with that "4th and stupid" 8 yard lateral.  Yeah, we got a good taste of empty backfield football in the Gilbride/Bledsoe days.

 

While receivers are better now.........the matchup advantages created by "empty" really are not.    LB's can cover better now.   Safeties are smaller and more like CB's.   And CB's get paid top dollar and the position draws quality players.   Turning the pattern into a stew of those players negates the talents of guys like Diggs and Beasley.  

 

  

[Nitro]

On 9/12/2021 at 7:24 PM, Big Gun said:

Hmmmm....... could of had Spain and Teller as our guards

Spain???  He would not make this team.  Teller was traded for picks one of which went to Minnesota for Diggs and the other was used to draft Bass. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Maybe the idiots that have to stand for every play, will realize that the team does not play any better, when most everyone stands, for every Goddamn play.

 

 

Yes as you know there were a handful of people in the lower bowl (above the concourse level) who were being really D-baggish about unapologetically standing up right at the snap and just causing people to miss the play and/or a line two people wide to have to stand up for 20 rows when everyone else in the section was seated.

 

Well there was a highly visible issue in 133 where two dudes just refused to sit down despite being the only ones standing.......and wouldn't listen to the usher so security yanked them........... when other obnoxious standers saw the dudes getting carted out they sat their asses down without any urging and stayed there.

 

If everyone is standing,  fine.   If you are the only one.......read the room.

[Nitro]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah you disagreed with the dink and dunk portion of the argument...........your reasoning was the perceived matchup advantages created in coverage.

 

I overheard Jeremy White on the radio today say something about Beasley lamenting the lack of room to operate yesterday.........which would be very consistent with one of my very key points regarding the limiting nature of running 5 wide.........congesting the field makes it easier for the defense to cover as a unit.   

Tasker explained the coverage.  To beat it you have to go deep and the O line did not afford Allen that opportunity expect for a handful of times.  Hard coverage takes away one side and a DB is behind on the other side.  The other out in routes have to win the one on one battles. 

23 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

i feel Bad suggesting that Haack is the main problem. It was a jail Break today— but to My untrained eye, it seems like Haack takes longer than most. 

He is a slow punter but that block was due to a blown assignment.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Nitro said:

Spain???  He would not make this team.  Teller was traded for picks one of which went to Minnesota for Diggs and the other was used to draft Bass. 

 

 

Yeah.......the Vikings squeezed every ounce they could get out of Beane for Diggs..........but let's be honest that pick was in the single digits wrt % of the value of the package they dealt for Stefon.   Disingenuous to try to sell "Teller was traded for Diggs".

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Nitro said:

Tasker explained the coverage.  To beat it you have to go deep and the O line did not afford Allen that opportunity expect for a handful of times.  Hard coverage takes away one side and a DB is behind on the other side.  The other out in routes have to win the one on one battles. 

 

 

Yeah, I didn't listen to Tasker.......he's generally all over the place with his takes but not wrong about that.

 

I pointed out that aspect of their "empty backfield" gameplan in the preseason game against GB.........in that game Allen bailed them out on 3rd and 20 on their first drive with a ridiculous TD throw to Davis.   Forced the Pack into a man coverage situation.   But that was a precarious down and distance to have ended up in for the Bills starters against GB backup defenders.

 

Expecting to have time to throw deep when running empty backfield sets against a good defense was quite the combination of arrogance/stupidity from the Bills.

 

Instead of defiantly trying to beat a coverage that invites you to do things you find difficult.........the sensible thing to do is to force them out of the coverage.

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah you disagreed with the dink and dunk portion of the argument...........your reasoning was the perceived matchup advantages created in coverage.

 

I overheard Jeremy White on the radio today say something about Beasley lamenting the lack of room to operate yesterday.........which would be very consistent with one of my very key points regarding the limiting nature of running 5 wide.........congesting the field makes it easier for the defense to cover as a unit.   

 

I never disagreed that it shouldn't be the core of your offense. My argument was always it has a place in the arsenal.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I never disagreed that it shouldn't be the core of your offense. My argument was always it has a place in the arsenal.

 

 

The point I was making was regard to the nature of empty backfield/5 receiver pattern football producing low yards per play(dink and dunk).............so I guess you were just straw-manning me with the idea that it never should be used.    I never said that.

 

Despite the Bills defense not manufacturing a take away..........there is one take away from this game that we should try to remember............sometimes you can identify problems with your offensive approach during the preseason games.    They ran the sh*t out of empty backfield during the games and then came out and did it in the opener.

 

The offense Sunday had a very Mike Martz/Marc Bulger 2003 and beyond feel to it.........QB with minimal protection, under intense pressure.........coordinator and QB still trying to force their way thru what the defense isn't giving them.     Fortunately for Bills fans Daboll isn't the HC.........I will be surprised if McD let's Daboll go Martzy for nearly an entire game like that again.

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The point I was making was regard to the nature of empty backfield/5 receiver pattern football producing low yards per play(dink and dunk).............so I guess you were just straw-manning me with the idea that it never should be used.    I never said that.

 

Despite the Bills defense not manufacturing a take away..........there is one take away from this game that we should try to remember............sometimes you can identify problems with your offensive approach during the preseason games.    They ran the sh*t out of empty backfield during the games and then came out and did it in the opener.

 

The offense Sunday had a very Mike Martz/Marc Bulger 2003 and beyond feel to it.........QB with minimal protection, under intense pressure.........coordinator and QB still trying to force their way thru what the defense isn't giving them.     Fortunately for Bills fans Daboll isn't the HC.........I will be surprised if McD let's Daboll go Martzy for nearly an entire game like that again.

 

 

Agree with all of this and WRT defense the coaches agree with you so not sure why folks here are disagreeing - both McD and Frazier praised the defensive effort but said they need takeaways to get to the next level.

 

And agree with you about the offense, if you watched McD’s postgame presser it was clear from his body language that he was about to go put a foot up Dabs’ a$$.  Just hope he doesn’t overcorrect - McD goes full turtle with the slightest excuse.  

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The point I was making was regard to the nature of empty backfield/5 receiver pattern football producing low yards per play(dink and dunk).............so I guess you were just straw-manning me with the idea that it never should be used.    I never said that.

 

Despite the Bills defense not manufacturing a take away..........there is one take away from this game that we should try to remember............sometimes you can identify problems with your offensive approach during the preseason games.    They ran the sh*t out of empty backfield during the games and then came out and did it in the opener.

 

The offense Sunday had a very Mike Martz/Marc Bulger 2003 and beyond feel to it.........QB with minimal protection, under intense pressure.........coordinator and QB still trying to force their way thru what the defense isn't giving them.     Fortunately for Bills fans Daboll isn't the HC.........I will be surprised if McD let's Daboll go Martzy for nearly an entire game like that again.

 

I was not straw manning you because what we were discussing was never should it be used vs shouldn't it be used as far as I was concerned. I know you prefer everything to be a one person on this side and another person on that side argument but that wasn't what we were doing. You were saying you don't like it, I was saying I don't mind it and when used correctly it has a place. They used more 4 and 5 wide (combined) last season than any team in the league and had some success but their base offense was 11 personnel and they used that about 2/3s of the time from memory (without having the precise numbers right in front of me). I think that is where they should, and indeed will, settle again for this year. 

[BADOLBILZ]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was not straw manning you because what we were discussing was never should it be used vs shouldn't it be used as far as I was concerned. I know you prefer everything to be a one person on this side and another person on that side argument but that wasn't what we were doing. You were saying you don't like it, I was saying I don't mind it and when used correctly it has a place. They used more 4 and 5 wide (combined) last season than any team in the league and had some success but their base offense was 11 personnel and they used that about 2/3s of the time from memory (without having the precise numbers right in front of me). I think that is where they should, and indeed will, settle again for this year. 

 

 

71% 11 personnel in 2020 per Hapless post above.

 

I think you might have been compelled to want to disagree with me because you've given me the red x on concepts like more play action being used in the Bills offense as well.    There was none on Sunday.   A lot of my points were re-inforced by that play calling.

 

We've also disagreed on the approach at WR..........I thought they were too heavy on guys who do short to intermediate work.......which again, simplifies things for the defense.     I'm not looking to go 70's Al Davis here with 20 air yards per attempt but the reason the offense turned from atrocious in 2018 to serviceable in 2019 was WR separation.    If you can't threaten teams deep and you run 5 receivers into the pattern then they will squat on you and limit how open you can get underneath.

 

Being relatively one-dimensional in your WR corps is a problem.    I know Allen has had issues getting over the top..........if it's a 20-30 yard target that he can throw on a line he's generally been exceptional........but throws requiring arc/touch/timing they have been an issue.   One way to resolve that is have that guy who can go up and physically dominate a boundary CB in a contested catch situation.......which would allow Allen to under throw the ball.    The Bills don't have that and we've disagreed on the value of that.......but also saw what a difference it makes for Pittsburgh being able to under throw the deep ball and draw PI's or have a guy like Claypool rip the ball away for a huge gain.