The Athletic NFL 100 of all time

[BADOLBILZ]

52 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Bruce had two games a year against Marino. But in general the quality of the NFC was much better than the AFC, so I would not discount the opponents White had to rush against every week.

 

 

I know you are implying that Marino wouldn't allow himself to be sacked........but he wasn't an offensive tackle.  

 

Richmond Webb was though.......perennial pro bowler and 2x first team all pro LT.

 

Bruce Armstrong was also great for New England......6x pro bowler at LT.

 

That's two tremendous LT's right in division for much of his career with the Bills.

 

There were great LT's in the NFC as well.......but Reggie didn't face them.

 

What great pass blockers was Reggie facing?

 

Back then RT's were really glorified offensive guards..........the success that White had dominating the less athletic RT's lead to other teams deciding to put their best rushers on weaker pass blocking RT's.    It's since been a windfall for guys like Strahan and the Watt bros.   The Bills did it with Jerry Hughes last year.

 

The only "great" pass blocking RT that White had to face was Erik Williams of the Cowboys.

 

They matched up in the playoffs when White was in his prime for the Eagles........and Williams blanked the minister of defense........not even a single tackle.

 

His crowning moment was getting two sacks in the SB for Green Bay against a journeyman named Max Lane.

 

Bitter Bills fans remember the dominant Tony Boselli giving Bruce fits.........but Bruce also gave dominant HOF'ers Walter Jones and Orlando Pace their worst career games allowing multiple sack performances to #78.

 

  

[Paup 1995MVP]

7 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

I know Bills fans love to make it a competition between White and Bruce but White was that good.

 

”oh but he was and LDE and Bruce was a RDE in a 3-4 defense.”

 

Don't care.

 

Bruce at 20th of the all time players is perfectly fine with me. That’s damn impressive.

I agree.  I was very proud when I saw Bruce at #20.  Elway is too high at #15.  He was good.  But not that good.  The 2 Super Bowls he won at the end of his career were on Terrell Davis and a great run blocking scheme w their excellent O line.

[dave mcbride]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

As the old schoolers who don't care about perspective die off..........Bruce will continue to gain ground on Reggie White in terms of notoriety.

 

The old-timers don't care about the difference between rushing against Jumbo Elliott/Jim Lachey/Mark Tuinei in the SB versus lining up across from the pathetic Max Lane.

 

But today we know and highlight the difference between rushing against an Eric Fisher or a Mike Remmers..........it is massive and can decide Super Bowls.

 

Bruce Smith has been slowly gaining that respect over time.

 

It's the Joe DiMaggio/Ted Williams dynamic.............in 1965 DiMaggio was considered the greater player by a lot........no contest.

 

60 years later Ted Williams is often cited as the best left handed hitter of all the time......and DiMaggio is really only brought up when someone has a hitting streak.

 

The reason is because Ted Williams had the numbers advantage.........Bruce has that......he is the all-time leading sacker......getting to 200 mattered in the long run..........you can't talk about pass rushing greatness without Bruce........his sack total is the focal point for all great pass rushers and with the game being much more about passing now........the viewed importance of pass rush is heightened.

 

Not sure what your point is. Can you clarify? Who was better?

[Paup 1995MVP]

5 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

.85 sacks per game for White

.71 for Smith.

 

And I do agree that Smith was better against the run, and more athletic. But White doesn’t get appreciated on this board like he should.

 

As my original post stated. There’s a reason why White is 5 and Bruce is 20.

 

 

 

 

Based on?

Reggie White was as powerful a D lineman as there has ever been..  But Bruce coming around the corner was unblockable a lot of the time.  Writing this I remember Bruce just crushing Jeff George when he played for the Colts.  Both were all world.

[Paup 1995MVP]

5 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Buffalo hates Brady because he tortured us, he cheats, and he's a huge whiner and crybaby who always gets his way and still ***** about not getting his way. 

Brady was great.  But he played in an era when QB's are protected and not allowed to be demolished.  If he played in the 80's and 90's no way he plays into his 40's.  Jim Kelly was battered at the end of his career.  The head was fair game back in the day.  Its like hockey.  When do you see the crosscheck in the back w the player facing the glass anymore or the check to the head while skating across the middle?  Scott Stevens on Eric Lindross.  Its a kinder gentler sports world we live in.  lol

[Royale with Cheese]

9 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Reggie White was as powerful a D lineman as there has ever been..  But Bruce coming around the corner was unblockable a lot of the time.  Writing this I remember Bruce just crushing Jeff George when he played for the Colts.  Both were all world.

This was 20 years ago so I don’t remember the specifics of the story….it was one of those segments on some sport show.

 

They were interviewing a guy who played with White and talked about how strong he was.  He remembers this one young and #### player put up 225 lbs about like 20 times or so.  Which was a lot in the early 90’s.  He called out Reggie that he couldn’t do more.  
 

This guy said Reggie, without breaking much of a sweat and did 30.  He said he easily could have done at least 5-6 more but the point was proven.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Royale with Cheese

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Not sure what your point is. Can you clarify? Who was better?

 

My point was that when he and White both retired there was a very strong bias towards White based considerably on the perspective of the time that their positions and the schemes they played in didn't matter.....and because of an NFC East media bias that was more prevalent at the time.

 

That's changed.

 

And today he would be viewed in a much more favorable light compared to White.

 

Bruce was the better pass rusher.

 

Considerably so.

 

In today's game I'd much rather have Bruce Smith.

 

In his time........he was actually underrated.........I respect White but the perception that he was the clearly better player is wrong.

 

Reggie White would still be great now but he would be challenged much more by the RT's of today.........they still aren't the quality of the LT's but they are considerably better at protecting the QB than they were 25-30 years ago.

 

Also, nobody would play Bruce Smith at end in a 3-4 and ask him to 2-gap and read and react today..........his ears would be pinned back and he'd be attacking on every down........and there is a good chance he'd be lining up against RT's as well rather than always being matched up against the best OT.

 

He was a freak of nature.........there are some great pass rushers today but there isn't a good comp for his combined size, athleticism, bend and technique in todays game.

 

 

 

 

[Logic]

I’ll tell ya who was REALLY ranked too low on that list: Marion Motley. 

[Big Turk]

8 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

.85 sacks per game for White

.71 for Smith.

 

And I do agree that Smith was better against the run, and more athletic. But White doesn’t get appreciated on this board like he should.

 

As my original post stated. There’s a reason why White is 5 and Bruce is 20.

 

 

 

 

Based on?

 

White also played against a far inferior Right Tackle during that era.  There was a HUGE gap in both athleticism and talent between left and right tackles in that era, which definitely benefitted White.  That being said, he was an all-time great, I just think his numbers were boosted by inferior competition.

[dave mcbride]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

My point was that when he and White both retired there was a very strong bias towards White based considerably on the perspective of the time that their positions and the schemes they played in didn't matter.....and because of an NFC East media bias that was more prevalent at the time.

 

That's changed.

 

And today he would be viewed in a much more favorable light compared to White.

 

Bruce was the better pass rusher.

 

Considerably so.

 

In today's game I'd much rather have Bruce Smith.

 

In his time........he was actually underrated.........I respect White but the perception that he was the clearly better player is wrong.

 

Reggie White would still be great now but he would be challenged much more by the RT's of today.........they still aren't the quality of the LT's but they are considerably better at protecting the QB than they were 25-30 years ago.

 

Also, nobody would play Bruce Smith at end in a 3-4 and ask him to 2-gap and read and react today..........his ears would be pinned back and he'd be attacking on every down........and there is a good chance he'd be lining up against RT's as well rather than always being matched up against the best OT.

 

He was a freak of nature.........there are some great pass rushers today but there isn't a good comp for his combined size, athleticism, bend and technique in todays game.

 

 

 

 

I see that, but I also think that White was a better, more consistent all-around player in the first parts of their careers. Smith’s true dominance in all phases of the game really started in my opinion around 1995. His best seasons were 1995-1997, when he was utterly dominant. He was good early on, obviously, but a bit more one-dimensional. He was also poorer at his craft then - overweight and fully reliant on his supernatural talent. Starting in the mid-90s he really started to take care of himself and became a real tactician as well. Anyway, my point is that they each had phases in their careers.

[Doc]

I wonder how much more effective he would have been on the left side?  Sure that's the "seeing" side, but Bruce would have smoked every RT of that era and the QB would have seen that and started to panic.

[Freddie's Dead]

Bruce is better than White, both on and of the field.  Rating him 20 and White 5 is a joke.

[soflabillsfan1]

Why do people always bring up Bruce in the 3-4?  He got very few sacks rushing from the 5 tech spot.  He got them as a DE in a 4 man line. 

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I see that, but I also think that White was a better, more consistent all-around player in the first parts of their careers. Smith’s true dominance in all phases of the game really started in my opinion around 1995. His best seasons were 1995-1997, when he was utterly dominant. He was good early on, obviously, but a bit more one-dimensional. He was also poorer at his craft then - overweight and fully reliant on his supernatural talent. Starting in the mid-90s he really started to take care of himself and became a real tactician as well. Anyway, my point is that they each had phases in their careers.

 

I think that's the perception because Wade Phillips actually gave the Bills a difference making D coordinator for the first time in Smith's career and the team became built around their defense.

 

But he was at his peak in 1990, IMO.   19 sacks playing read and react (and 5 more called back on defensive penalties).

 

IMO,  considering the constraints of his position,  that was the greatest pass rushing season a player has ever had.

 

What he could have been in a 4-3 like White played his entire career in became obvious when he went to Washington........a shell of his former self........and put up a 10 sack season..........he had A LOT of seasons with those kind of numbers in his PRIME because he wasn't in a defense that was built around his strengths.

 

IMO if he had played in the defense's that White played in you could easily add 5-7 sacks per year IMO........which would have put him closer to 300 career total.

 

[Bill from NYC]

On 9/4/2021 at 9:17 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The only "great" pass blocking RT that White had to face was Erik Williams of the Cowboys.

 

They matched up in the playoffs when White was in his prime for the Eagles........and Williams blanked the minister of defense........not even a single tackle.

 

Erik Williams was a superstar. When people talk about that Cowboy team they mostly mention Smith, Irvin, and Aikman.

 

This is fine, but the 2 players folks forget are Erik Williams and Leon Lett. Neither one had the longest career but when they were at their peak they were great, even Hall of Fame level players. If either one was on the Bills we would have won multiple super bowls.

 

Jmo.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Bill from NYC

[BigDingus]

Kinda sucks that passing stats got so inflated. Not just for QB's, but WR's too.

 

Wasn't Andre Reed like 2nd all time in receptions at the time of his retirement? I feel like I remember him being only behind Jerry Rice. He was also way up there in yards too. People should remember while he was in his prime, there wasn't a better WR in the league other than Jerry Rice (who happens to be the GOAT at the position). 

 

Edit: Also, I'd put Barry Sanders above any RB on that list. If his production suddenly dropped in half, he still would've broken Payton's all time rushing record with ease had he played even a bit longer.

Edited September 9, 2021 by BigDingus

[starrymessenger]

I get the Brady love but I dont exactly share it. I can't think of another player who has made better or more productive use of his particular skill set/talents. And to be clear his talent is obviously considerable and such as to place him without doubt amongst the best ever. He was also an outstanding player and a proven winner in college and him lasting into the sixth round of the draft was ridiculous.

But football is a team sport and I cant think either of another player who benefitted more from his association with a great organization top to bottom throughout his tenure in NE, great coaches, players. Those championships belong more to the organization than just to Brady himself. If I were starting a dream team from scratch today even just looking at currently active players and even assuming a Tom Brady at the peak of his powers, there is no way he would be my choice for QB. I'd pick Josh, Pat, AR ahead of him. 

If the GOAT just means the most successful while still being a great player then sure. Clearly he's not the most talented even just looking at QBs.

[34-78-83]

On 9/4/2021 at 8:00 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

That is why I list Jerry Rice first. He is so much better than any other WR to ever play. As for Brady I was in the Montana as GOAT camp up until the last few years. 

 

Bruce had two games a year against Marino. But in general the quality of the NFC was much better than the AFC, so I would not discount the opponents White had to rush against every week.

I think he's talking as much there about gap responsibility in Reggie's scheme vs. Bruces, and which OL positions that required them to face as literally who they faced, but then again I could be wrong.

[Chicken Boo]

On 9/4/2021 at 6:09 PM, Mango said:

Yeah, I couldn’t swallow that sentence while he was with NE. Out of conference, it is easier to say. He’s hands down the best player in NFL history and it’s not close. 

 

Definitely a great leader, but man...the Tuck Rule and that roughing the passer call in the 4th quarter vs KC (AFC Championship game).  Not even going to get into Spygate. 

 

It's just hard to call him the greatest although he strikes fear into opposing fan's hearts like no other QB.  

 

In the back of our minds, we all knew Atlanta was going to blow it when the Pats scored to make it 28-10.  

Edited September 9, 2021 by Chicken Boo