Speed: John Brown vs E Sanders

[Straight Hucklebuck]

16 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Exactly this.  

 

I don't agree there is no value to the 40-yard dash.

 

This isn't 1972 where you outwork guys with minimal athleticism. There are minimum thresholds now. 

 

Mike Evans at 6'5" running a 4.53 40-yard dash alleviated concerns, whereas Bills message board favorite Malcolm Kelly struggled IN PART because he ran a 4.68-4.75. It's the reason they measure arm length, and when Nick O'Leary checked in with 4.93 speed and 29" arms. 

 

Why do players like Henry Ruggs get drafted before Jerry Jeudy? 

 

How does Jalen Waddle get drafted before DeVonta Smith? 

 

4.27 40's. 

 

The entire league outsmarted themselves on DK Metcalf, 6"3" 230 pounds and 10.3 100-meter speed. 

 

So the threshold is 4.60 speed, and if you're a smaller WR, it needs to be closer to 4.50 speed. 

 

It's not an R-Squared correlation of 1.0, but speed is a factor. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

Diggs sanders and Beasley are elite route runners, it will be near impossible to cover them one on one. If the defense can't get to allen, he should be able to pick apart any defense

[Thurman#1]

46 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I said after Beane got here so I could avoid somebody hitting me with the Gilmore and Woods examples.  LOL.  I agree with your sour grapes point though when it comes to most players.  Especially one's who weren't fan favorites when they were here like Gilmore.  Darby, Watkins, and Brown have been average at best.  Especially the latter two.

 

 

Average at best CBs don't get contracts for the 17th highest average in football. And Darby did.

 

Watkins has also collected high contract values, by some smart organizations, including Kansas City.  And this year he's being paid almost as much per year as Emmanuel Sanders, whom nobody is going out of their way to call average.

 

And for the 2nd time, it is YOU, NOT ME, who used the word "excelled." I said they were under-rated by Bills fans. They are. And while I'd certainly agree that Brown hasn't excelled, he's been very solid, and he's still mentioned here almost always negatively.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

I don't agree there is no value to the 40-yard dash.

 

This isn't 1972 where you outwork guys with minimal athleticism. There are minimum thresholds now. 

 

Mike Evans at 6'5" running a 4.53 40-yard dash alleviated concerns, whereas Bills message board favorite Malcolm Kelly struggled IN PART because he ran a 4.68-4.75. It's the reason they measure arm length, and when Nick O'Leary checked in with 4.93 speed and 29" arms. 

 

Why do players like Henry Ruggs get drafted before Jerry Jeudy? 

 

How does Jalen Waddle get drafted before DeVonta Smith? 

 

4.27 40's. 

 

The entire league outsmarted themselves on DK Metcalf, 6"3" 230 pounds and 10.3 100-meter speed. 

 

So the threshold is 4.60 speed, and if you're a smaller WR, it needs to be closer to 4.50 speed. 

 

It's not an R-Squared correlation of 1.0, but speed is a factor. 

We aren’t talking about the draft.  
 

Brown ran a 4.34.  He lasted til the 3rd  round.  
 

Hes bounced around the league and now sits at home.  Speed isn’t paramount 

[ehfeuh57]

22 hours ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Actually he's #2

On depth charts yes

 

In reality I believe its Gabe

[Straight Hucklebuck]

47 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

We aren’t talking about the draft.  
 

Brown ran a 4.34.  He lasted til the 3rd  round.  
 

Hes bounced around the league and now sits at home.  Speed isn’t paramount 

“We aren’t talking about the draft” 

 

- This whole thread was based on a question about Brown’s long speed verses Sanders.

 

”Speed isn’t paramount”

 

- That’s why I said it’s a “factor”

 

Where else do you get a number to indicate speed outside of the Combine measurements (40, 3-cone)?

 

Football people always talk about how timed speed doesn’t matter, it’s all on the tape, but clearly that’s not true and prospects are moved up and down because of it.

 

In this case why was Sanders speed questioned in the OP? Because he’s 34 and there is doubt how long he can consistently separate from DBs. He’s not going to forget how to run routes.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

“We aren’t talking about the draft” 

 

- This whole thread was based on a question about Brown’s long speed verses Sanders.

 

”Speed isn’t paramount”

 

- That’s why I said it’s a “factor”

 

Where else do you get a number to indicate speed outside of the Combine measurements (40, 3-cone)?

 

Football people always talk about how timed speed doesn’t matter, it’s all on the tape, but clearly that’s not true and prospects are moved up and down because of it.

 

In this case why was Sanders speed questioned in the OP? Because he’s 34 and there is doubt how long he can consistently separate from DBs. He’s not going to forget how to run routes.

 

You just cited several players' draft results were the result of their 40 times.  And then you listed minimum 40 times based on height.

 

This thread is actually about 2 dudes past the age of 30 who are not posting meaningful 40 times any more.  It's about which is a better receiver--and Sanders wins hands down.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

You just cited several players' draft results were the result of their 40 times.  And then you listed minimum 40 times based on height.

 

This thread is actually about 2 dudes past the age of 30 who are not posting meaningful 40 times any more.  It's about which is a better receiver--and Sanders wins hands down.

I took exception to the comment that speed is overrated unless it’s Tyreke Hill speed.

 

Speed does matter in 2021, not just at 4.29 like Hill, but the minimum speed bar is conceivably higher because teams throw more often than ever before, case in point is Hodgins. Had the height, the hands, the college production, but he’s a 4.6 guy who can’t stay healthy and can’t separate. 

 

And the other thing is happening here is our fandom dismisses what came before and favors who is here now. 
 

Brown had 1,000+ yards here as the #1 in 2019, and last year his injuries caught back up to him and his playmaking went belly up.

 

Sanders is on his 4th team in 5-years now, so he’s not in his prime either.

Great route runner yes, established veteran yes, but I think the OP has a valid point to ask about Sanders speed at 34 years old until we see it on the field against starters. 

[Turk71]

11 hours ago, HankBulloughMellencamp said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSjhZlTzEos

 

Anyone unsure of what Sanders still has in the tank should watch this excellent Cover 1 piece ... #1 will be the #2a & a huge upgrade over the oft-injured John Brown.

Not sure how DCs could possibly cover Diggs, Sanders, Beasley and Gabe. An impossibilium.

Thanks, haven't had time to finish it yet but great analysis. The Bills have 3 of the top 5 wrs in the league in efficiency vs zone coverage. Diggs Beasley and Sanders; Thielen and Cooks are the other 2. That's incredible.

[BillsFanForever19]

We didn't have John Brown most of last season. And when we did, we still didn't have his speed because he was never 100% for us. So don't look at it like John Brown v. Emmanuel Sanders. Look at it as last year's WR core + Emmanuel Sanders.

[billsfan_34]

On 9/2/2021 at 7:29 PM, ProcessTruster said:

Anyone concerned that John Brown's ability to keep safeties deep was lost when E Sanders replaced him?   

Anyone have their relative 40 times?    I don't recall Sanders being a burner.   Hope I am wrong..

Concerned we have a great, but less fast WR group, and secondaries will accordingly play tighter to the line of scrimmage.  

Stevenson when back will have his chance to take the top off!

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:53 PM, ßookie_tech said:

Who puts up better numbers this year, Sanders or Gabe Davis? That is the question. 

 

Davis.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Watkins has also collected high contract values, by some smart organizations, including Kansas City.  And this year he's being paid almost as much per year as Emmanuel Sanders, whom nobody is going out of their way to call average.

 

Watkins has been paid and continues to be paid based on his potential. That's reasonable considering he was so great in college and even his first couple of seasons in Buffalo were good / promising. But if we look at his actual production since leaving the Bills I don't think it is Bills fans being bias in thinking he has been below average. His four year averages since 2017 suggest he has put up below average production at the position for a starting #1 or #2 WR. 

 

Since 2017 per season averages:

 

Sammy Watkins: 42 receptions 551 yards 4 TD's  45 YPG

 

Emmanuel Sanders: 61 receptions 754 yards 4 TD's 55YPG

 

Going off the 2020 receiving yardage leaders,  Sanders 754 receiving yardage average would rank him #43, or a just slightly above average #2 receiver if we say that the receiver ranked #48 would be exactly your average #2 receiver. Meanwhile for Watkins, his 551 yard average would have him ranked #65 for all WR's. Either not good enough to be a #2 WR or the leagues best #3 WR depending on if one is a half glass full or empty kind of person. 

 

Watkins biggest problem continues to be his health but even when on the field he's only produced 45 ypg to Sanders 55 ypg. Bottom line is Watkins has been a below average receiver due to both injury and performance when healthy when looking at the production of the top 64 WR's. 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I took exception to the comment that speed is overrated unless it’s Tyreke Hill speed.

 

Speed does matter in 2021, not just at 4.29 like Hill, but the minimum speed bar is conceivably higher because teams throw more often than ever before, case in point is Hodgins. Had the height, the hands, the college production, but he’s a 4.6 guy who can’t stay healthy and can’t separate. 

 

And the other thing is happening here is our fandom dismisses what came before and favors who is here now. 
 

Brown had 1,000+ yards here as the #1 in 2019, and last year his injuries caught back up to him and his playmaking went belly up.

 

Sanders is on his 4th team in 5-years now, so he’s not in his prime either.

Great route runner yes, established veteran yes, but I think the OP has a valid point to ask about Sanders speed at 34 years old until we see it on the field against starters. 

 

Brown is 10 years out from his 40 time and he's banged up.   The OP titled this "speed"...and Brown's is long gone.  Sanders doesn't depend on straight line speed for success as a WR.  So, to answer OPs question, Sanders wins.

 

Brown barely got 1000 with in 2019 because Allen's only other option was Beasley.

[CSBill]

My thoughts: Sanders is an upgrade over Brown, a more complete receiver. Maybe not as fast, but quicker and better overall skills. However, I do think Gabe Davis will be the clear #2 by season's end. He just continues to get better, and he has been clutch in his young career. No doubt, Daboll and Allen trust him.

[John from Riverside]

Sanders is basically a lesser version of diggs as far as skillset

 

I will take that

[FLFan]

Sanders, by any measure of WR value and success, is the superior player.  He always has been and will be this year as well. The straight line speed measurements from the distant past are meaningless, even more meaningless than they were at the time as predictors of NFL success.  Sanders is a clear upgrade over Brown, at any stage, but without question at this stage of their respective careers.  

[Putin]

On 9/2/2021 at 6:34 PM, Putin said:

Sanders on this team is a # 5 WR 

I meant to say John Brown 🤦🏼‍♂️