McDermott's Cover 4 trap

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It's the Jimmys and Joes not the Xs and Os. We had this debate in the shoutbox last year. I think the NFL is broadly 2/3s talent and 1/3 coaching. Your coaching can be great... and a Sean McDermott can get the 2017 Bills to 9 wins rather than 7 wins and Bill Belichick can get the 2020 Patriots to 7 wins rather than 4 wins. But ultimately at the end of the day talent normally wins out and coaching is the fine margins. 

 

I can agree with that, with the proviso that talent is comprised of both native athleticism and skill/knowledge - so good coaching will bring out an extra 10-20%  of talent.  Meaning it may be more of a 50/50 proposition.

[HardyBoy]

@buffalo716 can you drill into the scheme that was consistently putting Edmunds in the soft spot of the zone and teams started exploiting it into an essentially no win situation last year for Edmunds?

 

Think it was their cover three base shell, but can’t remember exactly.
 

Maybe show how they adjusted the second half of the season?

 

Think it’s important for people to understand some more of the nuance behind Edmunds performance early in the year and that it wasn’t just his injury or really even his ability to read a play in a lot of situations, just the scheme the bills were playing and offenses figuring out a way to exploit it. 

[Shaw66]

16 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

@buffalo716 can you drill into the scheme that was consistently putting Edmunds in the soft spot of the zone and teams started exploiting it into an essentially no win situation last year for Edmunds?

 

 

Yes!  Always ready for more Edmunds talk. 

[Monty98]

Part of me wonders if this is why Nnamdi was a terrible cover guy in Philly, was he just not mentally able to make his read on the fly vs being in a predetermined matchup? Absolute stud in Oakland.

 

Similarly to Norman leaving Carolina, instinctually he's an amazing player, but athletically he's limited, he was able to read and react better to this system compared to a man based scheme in Washington

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, Monty98 said:

Part of me wonders if this is why Nnamdi was a terrible cover guy in Philly, was he just not mentally able to make his read on the fly vs being in a predetermined matchup? Absolute stud in Oakland.

 

Similarly to Norman leaving Carolina, instinctually he's an amazing player, but athletically he's limited, he was able to read and react better to this system compared to a man based scheme in Washington

 

There was a bit of that with Asomugha for sure, he was a man corner being asked to play in a predominantly zone scheme and while it is true that generally it is easier to plug a man guy into zone rather than a zone guy into man, he definitely struggled. But he was also 30 when he signed in Philly. Might just have been on the downslope. 

 

On Norman I actually always thought his "struggles" in Washington were a tad overstated. He didn't live up to the ridiculous contract they gave him but except for his final year he was a good to very good corner for them. I would argue the outlier season in Norman's career was his 2015 season in Carolina where he played at an elite level. He was never that guy before or after that one year. He was a good to very good corner. But only once was he close to elite. It is why I always say with any position, but especially with corner, you have to show me two high level seasons. Too many Kendal Fullers and Josh Normans for me to crown guys elite on the back of one elite year. We have had the debate with Jaire Alexander this summer. He played at an elite level for Green Bay last season, but he needs to be elite or close to elite again in 2021 for me to start ranking him consistently in that territory.

[97bills]

21 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Andy Ried attacked the scheme really effectively. I’m think that requires special personnel too execute as well. 

Boy thanks I’ve tried to forget that game. I was so mad both kelce and hill were so open. I mean we couldn’t even take one of them away. That was hard to watch our pass rush better be way better because we didn’t change much on defense 

[machine gun kelly]

Thanks for sharing 716.  I love how opponents never know who is coming and so creative.  Our defense IMO will bounce back to at least top 10 and

maybe even higher.

 
Part of the problem as I double as

the great And magnificent Carnac that the rankings might be a little skewed.

 The reason why is we are most

likely going To jump out with early leads so we’ll force opponents to give up on the run early.

 

[Richard Noggin]

It's not really THAT complicated, in theory. But it does emphasize the necessity for CBs to effectively play "off" technique: they're each initially reading more than just the WR lined up across the LOS, so all the DBs need to see the entire pass play develop and of course react appropriately, in unison. 

 

If a slot WR runs an out-and-up route (a kind of double-move), for example, that puts pressure on the boundary CB AND the corresponding safety, whose initial reads can be exploited through no fault of their own. 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, Richard Noggin said:

It's not really THAT complicated, in theory. But it does emphasize the necessity for CBs to effectively play "off" technique: they're each initially reading more than just the WR lined up across the LOS, so all the DBs need to see the entire pass play develop and of course react appropriately, in unison. 

 

If a slot WR runs an out-and-up route (a kind of double-move), for example, that puts pressure on the boundary CB AND the corresponding safety, whose initial reads can be exploited through no fault of their own. 

The technique itself is not complicated

 

Executing it in an NFL game, is complicated 

 

Especially when everybody's moving around 100 miles an hour 

 

And you throw in variables like double moves like you said... That's why there's so many variations to his cover 4 looks

[BADOLBILZ]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:19 PM, Buffalo Junction said:

Yes. You need at least 2-3 of an accurate QB with a arm strong enough to through deep outs on a rail, a receiver who can stretch the defense,  a TE or slot receiver that can exploit the seam, an excellent PA offense, and a third option that can beat a 1:1. Chiefs have four, and after what they did in the regular season we had to respect their ground game as well. Basically, you have to outrun the LBer and force the CB and safety to make choices. Allen & Co are also capable of exploiting this. The kicker is that you need time to get to the intermediate depths, so a dominant pass rush can kill any offensive play against palms.

 

 

Yeah, this is why the key to McDermott's defense being anything but middling is pass rush.

 

@GunnerBill for some reason disagrees with this but you can throw all kinds of different coverage adjustments out there but they are all defeatable with time and talent........which is the kind of offense you face A LOT when you start playing first place schedules.    

 

There are multiple years of McD's defense and the specific back 7 personnel they use on tape.   Literally year 3 for those guys(save for Klein).   The mystery of the first two seasons is gone and the piece of cake schedule of fragile opposing QB's from 2019 isn't coming back.

 

Pass rush will dictate whether this defense looks like a top 10 unit again or not.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah, this is why the key to McDermott's defense being anything but middling is pass rush.

 

@GunnerBill for some reason disagrees with this but you can throw all kinds of different coverage adjustments out there but they are all defeatable with time and talent........which is the kind of offense you face A LOT when you start playing first place schedules.    

 

There are multiple years of McD's defense and the specific back 7 personnel they use on tape.   Literally year 3 for those guys(save for Klein).   The mystery of the first two seasons is gone and the piece of cake schedule of fragile opposing QB's from 2019 isn't coming back.

 

Pass rush will dictate whether this defense looks like a top 10 unit again or not.

 

I disagree. I think you can win in this league with coverage, New England did it and others have too You can win with pass rush too. I maintain there is no one way to win. You start from what you freely admit is a preference for deep passing on offense and pass rush led defense. I say there at a multitude of ways to win in this league. Of course the best teams do most things well enough but you can build good defenses back to front and you can build good offenses short to long.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree. I think you can win in this league with coverage, New England did it and others have too You can win with pass rush too. I maintain there is no one way to win. You start from what you freely admit is a preference for deep passing on offense and pass rush led defense. I say there at a multitude of ways to win in this league. Of course the best teams do most things well enough but you can build good defenses back to front and you can build good offenses short to long.

 

Oh I value coverage..........I know the numbers indicate that you should begin your defensive build there.

 

But Belichick with his willingness to adapt from season to season and his opponent-specific-heavy game planning are the "exception that proves the rule" (as I hate to say).

 

Unless you are willing to complicate your approach in coverage.........you aren't going to be able to run the same guys out there and do the same things for 3 seasons and not have good passing teams exploit a modest pass rush.    

 

 

 

[3rdand12]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:41 PM, Buffalo716 said:

Yes and you're absolutely correct 

 

McDermott runs a good amount of variations of cover 4.. 

 

If he stayed in the palms look too much.. he can get exploited by certain route combinations

 

It's all a chess match.. every team in the league has great athletes and great football players... You need the Chess Master to put them in the right spots 

 

Very rarely is a bills player playing a role he isn't best suited for

Yes down distance and tendency are the keys to the chess match

 

Basically every coach has certain tendencies that they like to do in certain situations

 

And you try to game plan as much around that as you can..  McDermott mixes up his zone combinations better than anyone in the League

Late to comment on this absolutely pleasure to be reading thread.
 

 This is thread and the OP personify what makes this place such a joy sometimes.

Love learning details from folks who know of what they speak
and then the folks who chime in and create some fine dialogue indeed !

 

Cheers to  All   !

3rd

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Late to comment on this absolutely pleasure to be reading thread.
 

 This is thread and the OP personify what makes this place such a joy sometimes.

Love learning details from folks who know of what they speak
and then the folks who chime in and create some fine dialogue indeed !

 

Cheers to  All   !

3rd

Thank you 

 

Appreciate the kind words

 

Go Bills!

[3rdand12]

On 9/3/2021 at 7:32 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

It's the Jimmys and Joes not the Xs and Os. We had this debate in the shoutbox last year. I think the NFL is broadly 2/3s talent and 1/3 coaching. Your coaching can be great... and a Sean McDermott can get the 2017 Bills to 9 wins rather than 7 wins and Bill Belichick can get the 2020 Patriots to 7 wins rather than 4 wins. But ultimately at the end of the day talent normally wins out and coaching is the fine margins. 

If I may ?

 Coaching is so much more then the game calling.

McBeanes have taught me many things about team development. A clear Vision communicated. An understanding what you want the Team to look like and be able to accomplish in future state. Acquiring young players and bringing them in line with that vision. Great synergy of message and mission.

 Beane talked about building a long term playoff caliber Bills Football team. I think we are starting to realize that investments dividends !
I know this is a sidebar. But i agree about the talent on the field is what wins games. getting that talent into place and successful is where Elite Coaches and GMs deserve their just due.

ps

We have deep talent all over the field now and it is a glorious feeling
 

Go Bills 

[ColoradoBills]

I'm almost scared to ask this question but here it goes.

 

We all know that the initial play call is sent to Edmunds.

My question is "How much responsibility is given to Edmunds to adjust or change the defense and is he effective if he does"?

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

If I may ?

 Coaching is so much more then the game calling.

McBeanes have taught me many things about team development. A clear Vision communicated. An understanding what you want the Team to look like and be able to accomplish in future state. Acquiring young players and bringing them in line with that vision. Great synergy of message and mission.

 Beane talked about building a long term playoff caliber Bills Football team. I think we are starting to realize that investments dividends !
I know this is a sidebar. But i agree about the talent on the field is what wins games. getting that talent into place and successful is where Elite Coaches and GMs deserve their just due.

ps

We have deep talent all over the field now and it is a glorious feeling
 

Go Bills 

 

You need to have culture, vision, a plan and everyone bought in. But that only works if you then bring in talent. You can't go 13-3 with the 2017 Bills roster. No matter how good the coaching is.

[3rdand12]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You need to have culture, vision, a plan and everyone bought in. But that only works if you then bring in talent. You can't go 13-3 with the 2017 Bills roster. No matter how good the coaching is.

and or Develop talent. which is kind of my point Gunner

 I think that is where we have made ground . The sincere depth we are now seeing on the roster and before cut downs.

Bringing  player like Diggs in is a game changer agreed !
sorry for going off topic. 716 

 

 But who though AJ Klein was gong to work out?
Coaches did. certainly not me. But he fits the Defense McDermott envisions

Thanks Gunner for the solid take !

[Buffalo716]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:57 PM, ColoradoBills said:

I'm almost scared to ask this question but here it goes.

 

We all know that the initial play call is sent to Edmunds.

My question is "How much responsibility is given to Edmunds to adjust or change the defense and is he effective if he does"?

Not much honestly 

 

You'll see poyer and Hyde reading the offense at the line of scrimmage... And making calls based their coverage and offensive formations 

 

If anybody's making changes they are and they're usually the one getting everybody lined up correctly