GoBills808 Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said: Yes the way you disguise looks like cover 3 and such is with manipulating the Safeties And nobody does it better than him There is no defined role like in a Kam Chancellor Earl Thomas safety relationship... Micah and Jordan Mix Max their positions, their techniques .. and quarterbacks have no idea what role they will be in Post snap McDermott's hands down the best I've ever seen with manipulating safeties This is 100% true and something he was only able to accomplish with the talent here in Buffalo in Hyde and Poyer. In Carolina McDermott was able to design his front7 scheme with insane LB talent in Kuechly and Davis and a reasonably stout dline, albeit lacking top flight ends...but he was working with pretty much just Norman in the secondary, his safeties in Carolina were always barely above average/below average.
HardyBoy Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 Isn’t it kind of a synergy of the orchestrated zone blitzing they did in Pittsburg and Philly for a long time (basically everything designed to get one specific guy to come free, and the others just getting players to move and free up a weakness for that one guy to come free) and what Rex Ryan was doing with the Jets, having guys walking all around super late (instead of just the safeties) and causing a ton of confusion. But less aggressive and realizing it always comes down to a handful of plays, so wait for the other offense to get confused and throw you a few of those plays over the course of the entire game, instead of trying to force it to happen and getting burned. Otherwise, if it’s not one of the game defining plays, rally to the ball, keep them in front of you and make a solid tackle without giving up YAC or something over the top.
Buffalo716 Posted September 2, 2021 Author Posted September 2, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, HardyBoy said: With the robber look, having the safety basically coming down into the box, especially with how late and unexpectedly the bills safety’s shift (which was not as significant last year without crowd noise because easy to call an audible even with two seconds on the play clock), gotta think that it basically allows Edmunds or Milano to sell out on the pass and have the safety come in and fill that gap if it is a run. Like it’s not just that the lb is not blitzing, but he is potentially cycling back to the safety’s robber position and having the safety rotate down and the entire defense pivots kind of. lol, that is actually more of a question, I am not a football player, but I try and pay attention to smart people talking about it and have played soccer, lax and bball and understand defensive principles. Basically synergizing what I’ve heard smart people say in parts, along with my conceptual understanding of defense in other sports. Am I right, or at least rightish?! It all depends what formation the offense is in In Sean's base 43 under... Milano the sam is reading the tight end or slot receiver for pass from the LoS He just needs to keep outside leverage while he can play pass, looking for a run.. because he has the mike and will , and robber coming into the box Milano is perfect in that role Edited September 2, 2021 by Buffalo716
BADOLBILZ Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: Edmund's length also makes him ideal He swallows up seam routes in the 5 to 15 yard range.. and his quickness allows him to reach his drops from that formation There's been times he's misread a play fake... Been picked up by a center/guard ... QB throws it hot to his zone... And he still gets his arms up bats the ball down Insane length Edmunds blitzed 67 times without generating a single pressure last season. On paper he is ideal.......unfortunately games aren't played on paper they are played on tv. 1
Richard Noggin Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 THIS is the kind of football talk I like to nerd out with. Analyzing McD's 3rd down disguises, be it up front and/or on the back end, really also highlights the absolute necessity of keeping offenses behind the sticks. In order to employ his various and interchangeable pressure/cover packages, McD's defense MUST stop the run well enough to earn those 3rd-and-longs (at least at some point in a given drive). Otherwise they're left playing a more vanilla, read-and-react approach that gets carved up by NFL offenses. Why I love football so much: the interrelatedness of all things. The ultimate team sport (and the team extends well beyond the players on the field). 1 1
BADOLBILZ Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 1 hour ago, GoBills808 said: This is 100% true and something he was only able to accomplish with the talent here in Buffalo in Hyde and Poyer. In Carolina McDermott was able to design his front7 scheme with insane LB talent in Kuechly and Davis and a reasonably stout dline, albeit lacking top flight ends...but he was working with pretty much just Norman in the secondary, his safeties in Carolina were always barely above average/below average. They had excellent DE's in Carolina...........Greg Hardy, Charles Johnson and prime Mario Addison. 1
GoBills808 Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: They had excellent DE's in Carolina...........Greg Hardy, Charles Johnson and prime Mario Addison. They were good, I would say excellent is a stretch...zero All-Pros between the three of them. The strength of that defense was through the middle.
BADOLBILZ Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: They were good, I would say excellent is a stretch...zero All-Pros between the three of them. The strength of that defense was through the middle. So if you aren't in the top 4 DE's in the NFL you aren't excellent? Greg Hardy had 26 sacks and 48 QB hits in a 2 year stretch. Charles Johnson had 12.5 and 11 sack seasons. In truth, the Carolina McDefense was inconsistent..........his 2016 defense ranked 26th in points allowed and 21st in yards. The great season they had(2nd in points and 2nd in yards) was 2013 when Hardy and Johnson both put up double digit sacks from the DE position. That's excellent DE production.
GoBills808 Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 35 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: So if you aren't in the top 4 DE's in the NFL you aren't excellent? Greg Hardy had 26 sacks and 48 QB hits in a 2 year stretch. Charles Johnson had 12.5 and 11 sack seasons. In truth, the Carolina McDefense was inconsistent..........his 2016 defense ranked 26th in points allowed and 21st in yards. The great season they had(2nd in points and 2nd in yards) was 2013 when Hardy and Johnson both put up double digit sacks from the DE position. That's excellent DE production. Also coincidentally the year they drafted Lotulelei😉 1
GunnerBill Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: So if you aren't in the top 4 DE's in the NFL you aren't excellent? Greg Hardy had 26 sacks and 48 QB hits in a 2 year stretch. Charles Johnson had 12.5 and 11 sack seasons. In truth, the Carolina McDefense was inconsistent..........his 2016 defense ranked 26th in points allowed and 21st in yards. The great season they had(2nd in points and 2nd in yards) was 2013 when Hardy and Johnson both put up double digit sacks from the DE position. That's excellent DE production. 2016 was the year they started rookies at all corner spots wasn't it? After they traded Norman to Wahsington. It was four years in a row of top 10 defenses before that. Greg Hardy was an all pro level talent, unfortunately he was an all pro knuckle head as well. 1 1
colin Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 great thread. this is solid evidence of why mcd puts so much into the dline. he schemes and disguises all over the spot, so if his deep squad on the front 4 can get some pressure, with the big play taken away w disciplined coverage and making it hard to dial up good plays, the opposing O gets a step behind and can't manufacture yards and points. it also shows why it is so frustrating to watch as a fan sometimes. when the dline can't get pressure, on a post snap basis its a bit of an open book and without a ton of size it makes us look small and passive. I really hope AJ, and our two new rookies (and that obada guy too) really make a contribution because i think we are striking distance from being a top 3 d again.
BADOLBILZ Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 7 hours ago, GunnerBill said: 2016 was the year they started rookies at all corner spots wasn't it? After they traded Norman to Wahsington. It was four years in a row of top 10 defenses before that. Greg Hardy was an all pro level talent, unfortunately he was an all pro knuckle head as well. Team defense(yards allowed) alone is an antiquated way of judging a defense. The two years where they were top 10 in both points allowed and yardage they had a double digit sacker. McD's defense team rank in points allowed 2011-2016: 27th 18th 2nd 21st 6th 26th That's inconsistency and it's a bit disingenuous to call a team like that a top 10 defense in an era of so many advanced statistics. Points matter in the equation. Here are the Bills ranks in points allowed under McD: 18th 18th 2nd 16th People can talk all they want about how they use the back 7........and no question McD does a good job there.........but the defense doesn't work right without that pass rush..........it's the #1 component. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 14 hours ago, Rubes said: What's interesting about the Seattle sack/fumble play linked above is that it wasn't the linebackers in the A gaps. The four rushers on the play were Klein, Edwards, Oliver, and...I think Jefferson? The two guys in the A gaps who both drop into coverage there are Jerry Hughes and Mario Addison, I believe. Yeah, that was part of the deceptions. The A gap guys aren't being subtle about it. They're revving their engines and saying "get ready, we're coming!" Then they drop and Klein zips around the end unblocked. The thing there is, if a team is well-coached and well prepared I wonder if the engine-revving constitutes a "tell" - do they behave differently when they're dropping vs. coming?
BringBackFlutie Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Team defense(yards allowed) alone is an antiquated way of judging a defense. The two years where they were top 10 in both points allowed and yardage they had a double digit sacker. McD's defense team rank in points allowed 2011-2016: 27th 18th 2nd 21st 6th 26th That's inconsistency and it's a bit disingenuous to call a team like that a top 10 defense in an era of so many advanced statistics. Points matter in the equation. Here are the Bills ranks in points allowed under McD: 18th 18th 2nd 16th People can talk all they want about how they use the back 7........and no question McD does a good job there.........but the defense doesn't work right without that pass rush..........it's the #1 component. I have to agree here, from a historical perspective. McD's defenses are always average-to-good, and he can do some incredible things with his backfield, but his defense truly hums when the DL can get to the QB. 4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Yeah, that was part of the deceptions. The A gap guys aren't being subtle about it. They're revving their engines and saying "get ready, we're coming!" Then they drop and Klein zips around the end unblocked. The thing there is, if a team is well-coached and well prepared I wonder if the engine-revving constitutes a "tell" - do they behave differently when they're dropping vs. coming? I'm sure they "rev" a bit higher when they're not coming 😅 1
JohnBonhamRocks Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Edmunds blitzed 67 times without generating a single pressure last season. On paper he is ideal.......unfortunately games aren't played on paper they are played on tv. Someone get Edmunds an HDTV stat!
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, BringBackFlutie said: I'm sure they "rev" a bit higher when they're not coming 😅 That's My Point. Those things can become "tells" for a really detailed offensive coach to prepare his team.
BringBackFlutie Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 13 hours ago, HardyBoy said: Isn’t it kind of a synergy of the orchestrated zone blitzing they did in Pittsburg and Philly for a long time (basically everything designed to get one specific guy to come free, and the others just getting players to move and free up a weakness for that one guy to come free) and what Rex Ryan was doing with the Jets, having guys walking all around super late (instead of just the safeties) and causing a ton of confusion. But less aggressive and realizing it always comes down to a handful of plays, so wait for the other offense to get confused and throw you a few of those plays over the course of the entire game, instead of trying to force it to happen and getting burned. Otherwise, if it’s not one of the game defining plays, rally to the ball, keep them in front of you and make a solid tackle without giving up YAC or something over the top. Well, he came from that scheme in Philly, right (rhetorical)? I agree about the Pitt scheme. Pretty sure the double A-gap is just a variation on the zone-blitzing concept that LeBeau, apparently, created. And yeah, Rex did it too (Mario hated it).
BADOLBILZ Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 8 minutes ago, BringBackFlutie said: I have to agree here, from a historical perspective. McD's defenses are always average-to-good, and he can do some incredible things with his backfield, but his defense truly hums when the DL can get to the QB. I'm sure they "rev" a bit higher when they're not coming 😅 Yeah and I know it's been proven very difficult to maintain consistent defensive success from year to year...........but technically the Steelers are defying that rule with regard to their pass rush being dominant year after year. So it can be done. Which brings me back to Edmunds and the blitz..........it's not easy for him, with that wide, rangy frame to get thru that A gap unscathed. Had they instead made him and edge player from the start they might have that TJ Watt kinda' reliable presence by now.
BringBackFlutie Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Yeah and I know it's been proven very difficult to maintain consistent defensive success from year to year...........but technically the Steelers are defying that rule with regard to their pass rush being dominant year after year. So it can be done. Which brings me back to Edmunds and the blitz..........it's not easy for him, with that wide, rangy frame to get thru that A gap unscathed. Had they instead made him and edge player from the start they might have that TJ Watt kinda' reliable presence by now. I see it both ways. Edmunds would be an excellent edge player. It's easier reads for him, and would allow his athleticism to truly shine. For better or worse, McD is coverage-focused. He values that athleticism to disrupt passing lanes rather than disrupt the ones throwing into those lanes (or so it seems). ...I'm not one to crap on Edmunds or claim to understand the nuances of his responsibilities and whether the coaches are pleased with his execution there. However, what concerns me about McD's apparent valuation of his skills as they pertain to his role in this defense is that it sure seemed like throwing directly at his zone worked a lot last year (such was not the case previously). 2
section122 Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 46 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: That's My Point. Those things can become "tells" for a really detailed offensive coach to prepare his team. I have a very strong belief that this was Ernie Adams entire role with the Patriots. He watched and re-watched film to find tells from players. I vaguely remember something about Fitz opening his hips when throwing left so the defense was trained to watch for that, and that being spoken about after the game. I think that is why he was so instrumental to the success of the Patriots. It also explains why they seemed to have a good idea what was coming on many plays (if you don't dive into headset eavesdropping/spygate as the explanation). I think they did know what was coming but it was part of the preparation process for the team. If you see a guy do this watch for that which is normal film study stuff. I feel like the Pats did that but on another level from most teams.
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