AP exclusive: Bills propose new 60k seat stadium by (update - 2025)

[Doc]

I guess people only care about one particular type of grift when it comes to their tax money...

[TEC]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

I guess people only care about one particular type of grift when it comes to their tax money...

 

Nice straw man. 

 

I don't expect NYS/Erie County to grow a spine on this. If it comes to a vote to raise taxes, I'd anticipate it goes through with flying colors, as it's easy to get rose colored glasses on an issue likes this. That doesn't mean it makes any economical sense to do so.

 

$700M seems to be the starting rate for the pride of having a team. It is what it is. #EattheRich 

Edited September 3, 2021 by TEC

[Augie]

19 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

It doesn’t work Like that. NYS and Erie county will work with Pegula. No one will be calling anyone’s bluff. 

 “Callings someone’s bluff” is known in the real world as negotiating. Nobody should take it personally. Both sides want it all, the truth will almost certainly be somewhere in the middle. How close to the middle is the real question. 

 

On a side note - this is why players have agents. You don’t want to be a part of negotiations that harm relationships. 

 

.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Augie

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, TEC said:

 

You are right, he doesn't owe us anything. I also believe that public taxpayers don't owe him anything and shouldn't front the majority of a stadium build so some billionaire may profit off extremely limited, private events. 

 

The case against public subsidies for new stadiums has been laid out a dozen times over by economists, city planners and journalists far smarter than I. The public can choose to ignore those facts so we can simply "have a team",  or we can stand our ground and say "No". I say call his bluff. We may hate the outcome, but at least we didn't get grifted. 

 

 I hope there is a solution with limited to no public funds involved that keeps the Bills in Buffalo for decades to come. 

 

You are completely principled on this - so as the people of SD, LA, Oakland, Cleveland, Baltimore, and St. Louis for example - how great it was to call the bluff.

 

 Those cities all called the bluff and lost their teams - did that help and improve the local economy?

 

Did those cities all suddenly become wealthy because they didn’t subsidize a stadium?

 

Nope all of those cities except SD so far - went out and subsidized a stadium very shortly after and then aggressively went out to pay through the nose to get a new team back.  A majority of the time now in a 100% public financed stadium to lure teams back.

 

So you can be fully principled and say no public funds and then drop your drawers and bend over when they leave ala St.Louis, Cleveland, Baltimore, and LA.  
 

Or you can have a stadium sitting there and no team so it is just a waste and reminder - ala SD and Oakland the second time (both of which are trying to figure out if they can get new teams to return and what it will take).

 

Or you can work with the team, county, and state to come up with a public/private mix and get things taken care of and maintain the team and still maintain the current fan mix.

 

The final thing is you can pray they want to do a 100% private and the Pegula’s own the stadium, but then you better be prepared not to attend any more.  Anything greater than about 30% paid by the owners will come with pricing out the majority of fans - see the NY teams, Dallas, and Boston.  They make back the money and true fans no longer can afford to attend.

 

So for me - I hope the stadium is nearly 100% financed by the public because even though it will never return the money - the team and the experience are more important in the end.  

Edited September 3, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[FilthyBeast]

Here's one thing lost in the stadium/relocation discussion.

 

If the Bills do win a SB in the next few years with Allen, in my eyes this is actually something the Pegulas can always use to not make themselves look like the bad guy if they were to pull the trigger and leave Buffalo.

 

Because they can always say 'at least we brought the city of Buffalo a championship' before they head on to greener pastures so to speak even though I'm pretty sure most fans would always hate their guts if this scenario happened.

[That's No Moon]

1 hour ago, TEC said:

 I hope there is a solution with limited to no public funds involved that keeps the Bills in Buffalo for decades to come. 

There isn't so the choice is do you want a team or not and that's not a bluff. If you think it is there are many cities you can ask how that works out in the end.

[Ohio Valley Bills]

So are we now waiting on Erie County/NY State's response or is it confirmed they are definitely going with the Bills proposal as is?

 

Another reason I'm surprised the Bills/PSE didn't go with Downtown or Amherst is there would have been decent money on a naming rights deal with all the traffic on those highways potentially passing the stadium.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Ohio Valley Bills

[loyal2dagame]

32 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

Here's one thing lost in the stadium/relocation discussion.

 

If the Bills do win a SB in the next few years with Allen, in my eyes this is actually something the Pegulas can always use to not make themselves look like the bad guy if they were to pull the trigger and leave Buffalo.

 

Because they can always say 'at least we brought the city of Buffalo a championship' before they head on to greener pastures so to speak even though I'm pretty sure most fans would always hate their guts if this scenario happened.

WNY would burn if the Bills were leave because of non funding for a stadium under normal circumstances. 

If the Bills leave after a Superbowl win, armagedden would occur. 

[TEC]

46 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 Those cities all called the bluff and lost their teams - did that help and improve the local economy?

Did those cities all suddenly become wealthy because they didn’t subsidize a stadium?

 

The final thing is you can pray they want to do a 100% private and the Pegula’s own the stadium, but then you better be prepared not to attend any more.  Anything greater than about 30% paid by the owners will come with pricing out the majority of fans - see the NY teams, Dallas, and Boston.  They make back the money and true fans no longer can afford to attend.

 

So for me - I hope the stadium is nearly 100% financed by the public because even though it will never return the money - the team and the experience are more important in the end.  

I appreciate the response...these sections stood out to me, so I'll reply to them specifically. 

 

Economic impact: there are decades of studies that show that there is zero to minimal economic incentive to publicly fund new private stadiums. I'm sure you could find countless reports on the topic as you choose. 

 

100% Private financing: It is unreasonable to expect that ticket pricing will stay consistent regardless of funding. Everything is going up, up, up if the Bills get a new stadium. And what the heck are "true fans"? Where are they from? What's the annual minimum spend on the Bills that is required? It can't be too high, or you know, they can't afford to attend anymore. Is ranch on their wings allowed, or do they get relegated down "average fan" with such a travesty? I'd like a guide so I can print it out and post at the local Backer bar. 

 

The team and experience are worth it: This is really, really interesting, and ultimately what I think this comes down to. I've seen no economic reason to write Terry a check for a new stadium. We know we'll never recoup the cost. We know there are countless housing, education, infrastructure, open space and technology investments we could make that are far more impactful than a stadium. Ultimately, we are trying to establish the value of having a NFL team that calls WNY home. Nothing more, nothing less.  100% public financing would say that right is worth over $1B. I just don't see how we can prioritize that kind of spending for an identity, not anything tangible that enables our community to improve. YMMV. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by TEC

[Rochesterfan]

Just now, TEC said:

I appreciate the response...these sections stood out to me, so I'll reply to them specifically. 

 

Economic impact: there are decades of studies that show that there is zero to minimal economic incentive to publicly fund new private stadiums. I'm sure you could find countless reports on the topic as you choose. 

 

100% Private financing: It is unreasonable to expect that ticket pricing will stay consistent regardless of funding. Everything is going up, up, up if the Bills get a new stadium. And what the heck are "true fans"? Where are they from? What's the annual minimum spend on the Bills that is required? It can't be too high, or you know, they can't afford to attend anymore. Is ranch on their wings allowed, or do they get relegated down "average fan" with such a travesty? I'd like a guide so I can print it out and post at the local Backer bar. 

 

The team and experience are worth it: This is really, really interesting, and ultimately what I think this comes down to. I've seen no economic reason to write Terry a check for a new stadium. We know we'll never recoup the cost. We know there are countless housing, education, infrastructure, open space and technology investments we could make that are far more impactful than a stadium. Ultimately, we are trying to establish the value of having a NFL team that calls WNY home. 100% public financing would say that right is worth over $1B. I don't think is worth the squeeze. 

 

There are dozens of studies that look at financial impacts, but they ignore huge swaths of impact on the economy.  They look at the relative economic impact without things like lost jobs and taxes of the players and owners, the subset of people that are impacted like all of the merchandise in stores that are sold and shipped and the sales tax on that.  The change in the attitude of the community and the impact on social services needed and loss of donations.  
 

So yes it is well known that a stadium by itself will not pay for itself, but the added benefits of the stadium and the team have huge benefits to the community and that becomes both financial and community wide benefits.

 

You are correct ticket pricing is going to change - the difference is if it is a publicly financed project and the cost is picked up across millions of people - individual cost is lessened and the money to cover the stadium cost does not need to be picked up by the owner and passed on to each visitor.  If it is privately financed - that cost is then spread across just the 60,000 fans and hits them every visit.  Ask the fans in any of these newer stadiums about things like PSLs and what it costs to actually attend games in LA or NY or even NE.  NE fans were thrilled that Kraft was building a privately funded stadium and wasn’t going to have PSLs everyplace.  Now if you read about it - most fans have been priced out and it has become a corporate venue where people are less concerned about the game and more about the vibe.  It has been a huge complaint.

 

The Pegula’s in doing their fan survey already have an idea of certain price points and the only way to get there is a healthy mix.  
 

As to you final point - of course there are millions of investment opportunities that provide better return, but the chances of Buffalo getting those are slim to non.  You can easily say let’s not write Terry a check and 100% the Bills leave and what do you gain.  
 

Does Buffalo get the 1 Billion dollars freed up to do something with?  

 

Does Buffalo lose an identity and become another also-ran small city? 
 

Does Buffalo suddenly lose 53 millionaires that buy houses, pay taxes, buy vehicles, throw huge parties and become a fabric of the community.  How much is that worth?

 

Your point about infrastructure is why to me the best thing the county and state could do is say - we want this thing built downtown and we want the infrastructure built up around it and we will cover the costs and it is going to be used to drive much needed infrastructure and change.  Will it make money - nope, but can it be used to get things that are badly needed and ignored no - yes it can.

 

Overall - in the end - it is going to be a mix with a huge amount publicly financed and it will get done and that is a good thing.

 

 

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, FilthyBeast said:

Here's one thing lost in the stadium/relocation discussion.

 

If the Bills do win a SB in the next few years with Allen, in my eyes this is actually something the Pegulas can always use to not make themselves look like the bad guy if they were to pull the trigger and leave Buffalo.

 

Because they can always say 'at least we brought the city of Buffalo a championship' before they head on to greener pastures so to speak even though I'm pretty sure most fans would always hate their guts if this scenario happened.

the Force  BBFS is strong with this one!

[TEC]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

There are dozens of studies that look at financial impacts, but they ignore huge swaths of impact on the economy.  They look at the relative economic impact without things like lost jobs and taxes of the players and owners, the subset of people that are impacted like all of the merchandise in stores that are sold and shipped and the sales tax on that.  The change in the attitude of the community and the impact on social services needed and loss of donations.  
 

So yes it is well known that a stadium by itself will not pay for itself, but the added benefits of the stadium and the team have huge benefits to the community and that becomes both financial and community wide benefits.

///

 

Overall - in the end - it is going to be a mix with a huge amount publicly financed and it will get done and that is a good thing.

 

 

 

 

Interesting article on the first section. It's a drop in the bucket. 

https://www.marketplace.org/2015/03/19/are-pro-sports-teams-economic-winners-cities/

Quote

 

There are a lot of things economists disagree about, but the economic impact of sports stadiums isn’t one of them. “If you ever had a consensus in economics, this would be it,” says Michael Leeds, a sports economist at Temple University.  “There is no impact.”

 

Leeds studied Chicago – as big a sports town as there is, with five major teams. “If every sports team in Chicago were to suddenly disappear, the impact on the Chicago economy would be a fraction of 1 percent,” Leeds says. “A baseball team has about the same impact on a community as a midsize department store.” That’s for a sport with 80 home games a year. NFL teams only play eight regular season games.

 

Still, politicians love building sports stadiums.

 

 

Regardless if the deal gets done, it doesn't mean we aren't getting played. We have a $14B company, with an individual owner worth $5.7B, holding a county and state hostage for their pet project disguised as a "common good" subsidy, one we all know provides minimal economic benefit, tied together with threats of "pay us, or we're gone". I think that is fundamentally wrong, and citizens should call out such hogwash. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by TEC

[Mr. WEO]

lol....selling chairs

3 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

There are dozens of studies that look at financial impacts, but they ignore huge swaths of impact on the economy.  They look at the relative economic impact without things like lost jobs and taxes of the players and owners, the subset of people that are impacted like all of the merchandise in stores that are sold and shipped and the sales tax on that.  The change in the attitude of the community and the impact on social services needed and loss of donations.  
 

So yes it is well known that a stadium by itself will not pay for itself, but the added benefits of the stadium and the team have huge benefits to the community and that becomes both financial and community wide benefits.

 

You are correct ticket pricing is going to change - the difference is if it is a publicly financed project and the cost is picked up across millions of people - individual cost is lessened and the money to cover the stadium cost does not need to be picked up by the owner and passed on to each visitor.  If it is privately financed - that cost is then spread across just the 60,000 fans and hits them every visit.  Ask the fans in any of these newer stadiums about things like PSLs and what it costs to actually attend games in LA or NY or even NE.  NE fans were thrilled that Kraft was building a privately funded stadium and wasn’t going to have PSLs everyplace.  Now if you read about it - most fans have been priced out and it has become a corporate venue where people are less concerned about the game and more about the vibe.  It has been a huge complaint.

 

The Pegula’s in doing their fan survey already have an idea of certain price points and the only way to get there is a healthy mix.  
 

As to you final point - of course there are millions of investment opportunities that provide better return, but the chances of Buffalo getting those are slim to non.  You can easily say let’s not write Terry a check and 100% the Bills leave and what do you gain.  
 

Does Buffalo get the 1 Billion dollars freed up to do something with?  

 

Does Buffalo lose an identity and become another also-ran small city? 
 

Does Buffalo suddenly lose 53 millionaires that buy houses, pay taxes, buy vehicles, throw huge parties and become a fabric of the community.  How much is that worth?

 

Your point about infrastructure is why to me the best thing the county and state could do is say - we want this thing built downtown and we want the infrastructure built up around it and we will cover the costs and it is going to be used to drive much needed infrastructure and change.  Will it make money - nope, but can it be used to get things that are badly needed and ignored no - yes it can.

 

Overall - in the end - it is going to be a mix with a huge amount publicly financed and it will get done and that is a good thing.

 

 

 

Merch sellers and millionaire parties and jacked pickup truck sales?

 

Nah.  Zero impact confirmed. 

[Fdapats]

Using any tax money to pay for a stadium is an absolute joke, let alone 1B$.  Why should we (the tax payers) pay $ so someone with a net worth of 5B$ can become wealthier.  It boggles my mind that anyone can defend this.

 

I would rather use the tax money to buy the team.  We could use the profits from supporting the team we all love to pay for better schools / roads/ .....  It is much more appealing  to me than paying for a 2nd Pegula super yacht.

 

Also, we have the best (or very close to the best) atmosphere in the NFL in our current stadium with affordable ticket prices.   If we get a new stadium the atmosphere may get worse as less affluent fans will be priced out (see Key Bank Center).  I could live with it if the Pegulas / NFL pay for it, but it is a bit sickening to think that our tax money will go to jeopardizing one of the best atmospheres in pro sports...  Ok, the atmosphere will probabaly still be great in a new stadium.  Go Bills! Go Buffalo!  Pegulas/ NFL, maybe dont be so greedy.

[klos63]

9 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Definitely, it was reported a week ago that the first meeting between the county officials and the Pegulas went very well and that talks are continuing to progress. But again the media doesn’t report that, they just take certain words or sentences and they try to form up their own little story to get clicks and get people pissed off. I think we can all agree that a deal will be made and completed for the new stadium here in OP

it was reported, bu the media doesn't report that.  Right.

7 minutes ago, Fdapats said:

Using any tax money to pay for a stadium is an absolute joke, let alone 1B$.  Why should we (the tax payers) pay $ so someone with a net worth of 5B$ can become wealthier.  It boggles my mind that anyone can defend this.

 

I would rather use the tax money to buy the team.  We could use the profits from supporting the team we all love to pay for better schools / roads/ .....  It is much more appealing  to me than paying for a 2nd Pegula super yacht.

 

Also, we have the best (or very close to the best) atmosphere in the NFL in our current stadium with affordable ticket prices.   If we get a new stadium the atmosphere may get worse as less affluent fans will be priced out (see Key Bank Center).  I could live with it if the Pegulas / NFL pay for it, but it is a bit sickening to think that our tax money will go to jeopardizing one of the best atmospheres in pro sports...  Ok, the atmosphere will probabaly still be great in a new stadium.  Go Bills! Go Buffalo!  Pegulas/ NFL, maybe dont be so greedy.

The team is not for sale.

[Fdapats]

5 minutes ago, klos63 said:

The team is not for sale.

Everyone has a price

[That's No Moon]

2 hours ago, TEC said:

 

 

Interesting article on the first section. It's a drop in the bucket. 

https://www.marketplace.org/2015/03/19/are-pro-sports-teams-economic-winners-cities/

 

Regardless if the deal gets done, it doesn't mean we aren't getting played. We have a $14B company, with an individual owner worth $5.7B, holding a county and state hostage for their pet project disguised as a "common good" subsidy, one we all know provides minimal economic benefit, tied together with threats of "pay us, or we're gone". I think that is fundamentally wrong, and citizens should call out such hogwash. 

Here's the problem. All of us know the economic argument. We know this. If that's the argument you want to stick with you are right, they should let the Bills leave. I'm not sure how many people actually agree with that because that is the real discussion. Enter a partnership where the public pays a significant portion and higher ticket prices, or watch NFL football on TV forever. Those are the options, no bloviation is required. There is no perfect world where the billionaires pay for their own stuff. Do you want it or not yes or no. 

 

11 minutes ago, klos63 said:

The team is not for sale.

They just said they won't sign a lease extension without a stadium deal. What do you think that means?

18 minutes ago, Fdapats said:

I would rather use the tax money to buy the team. 

That isn't an option. The NFL made it against their own rules after Green Bay. You can't do it so anything related to this line of thinking is a wish and a waste of time.

 

[RiotAct]

If a “huge” amount (percentage-wise) is publicly funded, I would hope ticket prices don’t go up much.

Edited September 4, 2021 by RiotAct

[Buffalo716]

 

4 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

If a “huge” amount (percentage-wise) is publicly funded, I would hope ticket prices don’t go up much.

History says most will be publicly funded 

 

The Ralph was , Yankee stadium , Mets stadium 

 

He has history on his side to get funding

[Fdapats]

10 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

That isn't an option. The NFL made it against their own rules after Green Bay. You can't do it so anything related to this line of thinking is a wish and a waste of time.

 

Rules can be changed