AP exclusive: Bills propose new 60k seat stadium by (update - 2025)

[machine gun kelly]

They have too much invested in Buffalo to just move it.  I’m not concerned.

[NewEra]

18 hours ago, purple haze said:

The fan surveys indicated a majority of fans did not want a covered facility. So it’s not just the money.

Fans are idiots 

[BuffaloBills1998]

4 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

They have too much invested in Buffalo to just move it.  I’m not concerned.

Exactly and in fact it would cost the Pegulas more money to relocate the bills and Sabres than it would just to stay put. A deal will be worked out, 💯 agree nothing to sweat over.

[Mango]

18 hours ago, Just Jack said:

 

They'll sell off anything can before it comes down.  Seats, signage, etc.  Won't bring in $130M, but it should be a good chunk of change.  I still have seats from the renovations back in 1999.

 

On 9/2/2021 at 11:27 AM, Mr. WEO said:

 

"county would still own the stadium".

 

County will be demolishing stadium they just dumped 130 million into less than 10 years ago.  The majority of that money can't be recovered. Bonds will be paid off for a hole in the ground....as new bonds are issued for the next one.

 

 

I do not believe this is included in the cost for the new stadium but the cost to raze the Ralph is probably going to be about $10M. The Aud seats sold for about $300 a pop, and that is secondary market. So somebody had to come in remove, transport, and store them. The county could possibly sell those seats to somebody else who will bring them to market. If the county is lucky they can sell the seats at $100-$150 ea. to a vendor. But I actually wouldn't be shocked if the county makes $0 on those and actually loses money on it.

For reference, I bought a bunch of coozies last year made from the old field that was torn up in 2011. There is also a cross fit gym in Buffalo that purchased a huge slab and use it as their floor. 10 years have passed and the field still has not been totally sold off, at least at a reseller level. Imagine being a vendor and having to sit on product for a decade and still be reselling it.

 

The county might not even make any money on the seats. The labor, logistics, storage, and resale time frame are so astronomically high that it may be part of the bid that they reduce the charge for removal, but they own the seats. So they get paid to remove and keep them. 

 

But lets say that the county gets somebody to pay them $100 per seat to remove them and keep them, at 45,000 seats (assuming 1/3 of the 70,000 are bleachers) it won't even cover the cost to tear the stadium down let alone recouping $130M in upgrades. 

 

 

[BuffaloBills1998]

https://www.wgrz.com/amp/article/sports/nfl/bills/buffalo-bills-nfl-disclose-what-team-wants-in-new-orchard-park-stadium/71-6022b921-ed9a-4922-a52b-548f25d1a9f4

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

https://www.wgrz.com/amp/article/sports/nfl/bills/buffalo-bills-nfl-disclose-what-team-wants-in-new-orchard-park-stadium/71-6022b921-ed9a-4922-a52b-548f25d1a9f4

 

This is mildly reassuring. I don't mind PSL's for club and suites. It is relatively non-committal though. I wouldn't be shocked at PSL's for the lower bowl, which is a bummer. 

 

Quote

We already have PSLs. Our clubs seats and our other premiums contain PSLs. PSLs in some way shape or form will be a part of the new stadium. However, they will not be anything like PSLs throughout the rest of the NFL in those major markets that have opened in L.A. and Atlanta and other places. Everything we do from a pricing prospective will be for the Buffalo market for the Buffalo fan. We know that we can’t price them out in any way shape or form, either, whether you’re a season ticket holder in the upper deck or whether you’re a club seat holder at the 50-yard line. We realize that. But PSLs are a part of the equation in all of sports today, and they are still a part of our existence here. I don’t think fans should get very nervous about PSLs. We understand this market. We understand the limitations to it. But they are a part of today’s sports, no question about it.

 

[Doc]

22 minutes ago, Mango said:

I do not believe this is included in the cost for the new stadium but the cost to raze the Ralph is probably going to be about $10M. The Aud seats sold for about $300 a pop, and that is secondary market. So somebody had to come in remove, transport, and store them. The county could possibly sell those seats to somebody else who will bring them to market. If the county is lucky they can sell the seats at $100-$150 ea. to a vendor. But I actually wouldn't be shocked if the county makes $0 on those and actually loses money on it.

For reference, I bought a bunch of coozies last year made from the old field that was torn up in 2011. There is also a cross fit gym in Buffalo that purchased a huge slab and use it as their floor. 10 years have passed and the field still has not been totally sold off, at least at a reseller level. Imagine being a vendor and having to sit on product for a decade and still be reselling it.

 

The county might not even make any money on the seats. The labor, logistics, storage, and resale time frame are so astronomically high that it may be part of the bid that they reduce the charge for removal, but they own the seats. So they get paid to remove and keep them. 

 

But lets say that the county gets somebody to pay them $100 per seat to remove them and keep them, at 45,000 seats (assuming 1/3 of the 70,000 are bleachers) it won't even cover the cost to tear the stadium down let alone recouping $130M in upgrades. 

 

The storage would be the stadium.  Since it's being demolished eventually, you just keep stuff where it is and remove it as it is sold.

[TEC]

I keep seeing these exorbitant "infrastructure improvements" estimates that go along with a downtown stadium, just what are you guys envisioning needs to happen? Every other city seems to have figured it out without building a slew of highways and mass transit options.

 

RE: $1.4B Stadium - Call the billionaire's bluff. Don't give this team free money and act like it's a public-private partnership. Stop the scam! 

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The storage would be the stadium.  Since it's being demolished eventually, you just keep stuff where it is and remove it as it is sold.

 

Right, fair point to an extent. Largely I was referring to @Just Jack way overvaluing the resale of anything in the stadium. These things don't sell at the scale assumed, and the cost to sell them at scale is immense. Some things will be sold as memorabilia but a small fraction of the stock available. Again, there is somebody out there selling the Bills turf for over a decade.

For reference. This is the Aud, 10 years after it was closed, about a year or so before tear down. Everything stayed in, just sort of rotting away. There is minimal resale value left at that point even if you use the decaying stadium as storage to piece out its parts. The aud was knocked down with what likes like near full seating capacity. TV's and refrigerators were left behind. 

There is no real money to be recouped in resale, at least not enough to put a major dent in tear down or past upgrade costs. It is a niche market that does not scale. 

http://www.forgottenbuffalo.com/forgottenbflofeatures/insidetheaud.html

[machine gun kelly]

52 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Exactly and in fact it would cost the Pegulas more money to relocate the bills and Sabres than it would just to stay put. A deal will be worked out, 💯 agree nothing to sweat over.

One of the accountants on the board can possibly elaborate, but I believe the Bills and all NFL teams get incredible tax breaks which one of

the many reasons billionaires like the investment.

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

It’s almost like people expected a dude who

made his billions destroying the environment to be a good guy and do the right thing. Only one thing matters to these people and it always amazes me that they never seem to have enough of it… 

[That's No Moon]

18 minutes ago, TEC said:

I keep seeing these exorbitant "infrastructure improvements" estimates that go along with a downtown stadium, just what are you guys envisioning needs to happen? Every other city seems to have figured it out without building a slew of highways and mass transit options.

 

RE: $1.4B Stadium - Call the billionaire's bluff. Don't give this team free money and act like it's a public-private partnership. Stop the scam! 

Which recent downtown stadiums are you talking about?

[Mango]

4 minutes ago, TEC said:

I keep seeing these exorbitant "infrastructure improvements" estimates that go along with a downtown stadium, just what are you guys envisioning needs to happen? Every other city seems to have figured it out without building a slew of highways and mass transit options.

 

RE: $1.4B Stadium - Call the billionaire's bluff. Don't give this team free money and act like it's a public-private partnership. Stop the scam! 

 

Water, sewer, electric just in terms of utilities. Water run off and corresponding erosion. Roads will have to be re-evaluated based on traffic needs. Not just width, signals, etc. but depth as well. 

Other cities absolutely had to do the same sort of planning and infrastructure upgrades. 

I agree with you on calling the Pegula's bluff. 

[SoCal Deek]

28 minutes ago, TEC said:

I keep seeing these exorbitant "infrastructure improvements" estimates that go along with a downtown stadium, just what are you guys envisioning needs to happen? Every other city seems to have figured it out without building a slew of highways and mass transit options.

 

RE: $1.4B Stadium - Call the billionaire's bluff. Don't give this team free money and act like it's a public-private partnership. Stop the scam! 

Huh?  The Billionaire's Bluff?  The Stadium isn't Terry's personal home.  You know that, right? He doesn't owe you a new stadium.  If you don't want your ticket costs to skyrocket, you  better hope they build an economical facility, in Orchard Park, and then spread the costs out over the million plus people who don't attend Bills games.

[TEC]

11 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Water, sewer, electric just in terms of utilities. Water run off and corresponding erosion. Roads will have to be re-evaluated based on traffic needs. Not just width, signals, etc. but depth as well. 

Other cities absolutely had to do the same sort of planning and infrastructure upgrades. 

I agree with you on calling the Pegula's bluff. 

Some quick searching, I think we all know NYC constructions costs aren't the best comparison, but it's a good starting point. 

The new Yankee Stadium, completed in 2009, required an investment of $220 million from the city of New York to upgrade infrastructure. 

 

I'd be interested in what Vegas, Santa Clara, Indy and Minneapolis invested for said infrastructure improvements. 

 

Freddie's Dead mentioned $700-900M in infrastructure investments to support a field downtown, that doesn't pass the smell test. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by TEC

[Just Jack]

Quote

RACCUIA: We already have PSLs. Our clubs seats and our other premiums contain PSLs. PSLs in some way shape or form will be a part of the new stadium. However, they will not be anything like PSLs throughout the rest of the NFL in those major markets that have opened in L.A. and Atlanta and other places.

 

Sounds like it's going to be like they have currently in the clubs, where we pay each year, and not a one time charge. 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Huh?  The Billionaire's Bluff?  The Stadium isn't Terry's personal home.  You know that, right? He doesn't owe you a new stadium.  If you don't want your ticket costs to skyrocket, you  better hope they build an economical facility, in Orchard Park, and then spread the costs out over the million plus people who don't attend Bills games.

 

So you call his bluff and Terry moves the team or sells it to someone who will move it.  Great, you "called the billionaire's bluff."  You da man!  And now you don't have a team and your tax money still gets wasted on stupid ***** anyway.

 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[TEC]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Huh?  The Billionaire's Bluff?  The Stadium isn't Terry's personal home.  You know that, right? He doesn't owe you a new stadium.  If you don't want your ticket costs to skyrocket, you  better hope they build an economical facility, in Orchard Park, and then spread the costs out over the million plus people who don't attend Bills games.

 

You are right, he doesn't owe us anything. I also believe that public taxpayers don't owe him anything and shouldn't front the majority of a stadium build so some billionaire may profit off extremely limited, private events. 

 

The case against public subsidies for new stadiums has been laid out a dozen times over by economists, city planners and journalists far smarter than I. The public can choose to ignore those facts so we can simply "have a team",  or we can stand our ground and say "No". I say call his bluff. We may hate the outcome, but at least we didn't get grifted. 

 

 I hope there is a solution with limited to no public funds involved that keeps the Bills in Buffalo for decades to come. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by TEC

[BuffaloBills1998]

22 minutes ago, TEC said:

 

You are right, he doesn't owe us anything. I also believe that public taxpayers don't owe him anything and shouldn't front the majority of a stadium build so some billionaire may profit off extremely limited, private events. 

 

The case against public subsidies for new stadiums has been laid out a dozen times over by economists, city planners and journalists far smarter than I. The public can choose to ignore those facts so we can simply "have a team",  or we can stand our ground and say "No". I say call his bluff. We may hate the outcome, but at least we didn't get grifted. 

 

 I hope there is a solution with limited to no public funds involved that keeps the Bills in Buffalo for decades to come. 

It doesn’t work Like that. NYS and Erie county will work with Pegula. No one will be calling anyone’s bluff.