Bills trading Daryll Johnson to the Panthers for 6th rd pick

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is still ahead of Bam as an end, yep. But if pre-season is to be any type of guide neither are starters and Bam is an infinitely better special teamer. 

 

I think they backed themselves into a corner on Addison with the restructure. They did it to allow themselves to re-sign Mongo, Milano and Williams. I though they should have restructured Diggs then (which they did later) and kept Addison cuttable until after the draft because I suspect once they knew they landed Groot and Boogie their perspective on Addison may have changed. 

 

It isn't a super major error that I am losing sleep over (we are arguing between their 4th best end and their 6th best end) but I do think they got this one a bit wrong. Just my opinion.

Is he? Because Addison played 71 percent of the snaps on a good ST unit (the 2013 Panthers). As I say above, ST "talent" is waaaaaaaaay overrated. Good coaching combined with functional players with intelligence (i.e., able to consistently fulfill assignments) and good kickers is pretty much all you need. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Is he? Because Addison played 71 percent of the snaps on a good ST unit (the 2013 Panthers). As I say above, ST "talent" is waaaaaaaaay overrated. Good coaching combined with functional players with intelligence (i.e., able to consistently fulfill assignments) and good kickers is pretty much all you need. 

 

I disagree with your general take on special teams. What I'd say about Addison is I suspect he moved much faster downfield in 2013 than in 2021. 

[RobbRiddick]

It's nice of Beane to give something back to the Panthers. In the Carolina/Buffalo relationship this is the equivalent of him offering them a reach around 

[dave mcbride]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea that is Addison. But I don't think it matters that much if it is Addison or Obada or Basham or even Johnson. We are talking about the 4th best end on the team and I'd have kept Bam's special teams prowess at a cheap value. I value special teams much higher than most football fans. Equally I'd have traded Obada before trading Bam too.

ST prowess? Please quantify that. Because I look around the league and see STs filled with guys not good enough to start. The good units make fewer mistakes than the more mistake prone units. It's pretty simple.

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree with your general take on special teams. What I'd say about Addison is I suspect he moved much faster downfield in 2013 than in 2021. 

He's still 260, which is what he was back then too. I feel very, very strongly about ST, but I realize people disagree with me. My basic view is that a) kickers do really matter; b) coverage and blocking is basically done by interchangeable players, some of whom make fewer mistakes than others; and c) punt and kickoff coverage is small part of the game in the grand scheme of things, especially given all of the fair catches and touchbacks. The Bils offense ran 1034 plays last season and the Bills D ran 1025. The Bills also had 67 punt and kickoff returns and defended against 46 returns. 70.3 percent of Bass's kicks were touchbacks. The numbers don't lie.

Edited August 30, 2021 by dave mcbride

[First Round Bust]

it was either cut Johnson or Obada and get nothing for them or take what the market offers,  Panthers needed someone better than current roster offers to get back the 5 sacks they lost cutting Obada, plus some special teams play; Bills get 5+ sacks from Obada not likely to get from Johnson and likely Gilliam take Johnson spot on ST

[BillsFanForever19]

1 hour ago, poblano said:

But the report is that Johnson has struggled in those duties.

 

Thus 

 

 

And Obada doesn't play Special Teams. Which is the only reason I had them keeping Johnson and 6 DE's instead of 4 or 5. He may very well stay on. But I wouldn't look at Daryl Johnson being traded as a guarantee Obada makes it. I could very easily see them just keeping Hughes, Addison, Rousseau, Epenesa, and Basham.

[Cotton Fitzsimmons]

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

 

The ole reverse pipeline move!

Miyagi, my good friend, that sounds like the old BANANA IN THE TAILPIPE:

 

 

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

ST prowess? Please quantify that. Because I look around the league and see STs filled with guys not good enough to start. The good units make fewer mistakes than the more mistake prone units. It's pretty simple.

He's still 260, which is what he was back then too. I feel very, very strongly about ST, but I realize people disagree with me. My basic view is that a) kickers do really matter; b) coverage and blocking is basically done by interchangeable players, some of whom make fewer mistakes than others; and c) punt and kickoff coverage is small part of the game in the grand scheme of things, especially given all of the fair catches and touchbacks. The Bils offense ran 1034 plays last season and the Bills D ran 1025. The Bills also had 67 punt and kickoff returns and defended against 46 returns. 70.3 percent of Bass's kicks were touchbacks. The numbers don't lie.

 

I couldn't disagree more strongly. 

[FilthyBeast]

20 minutes ago, clayboy54 said:

You are most certainly welcome to your opinion, but your blanket statement is ridiculous. I think you and quite a few others on here just don't like our defensive philosophy. Many want a huge nose tackle like Ted Washington and run-stuffing MLB. Fine. If that's what you expect then Beane has failed miserably. But, that is not reality for the Bills defense.

 

The Bills run a defense that thrives on sideline to sideline mobility. This, as others have said, makes a solid pass-stopping defense. So, if you're expecting FA acquisions and draft picks that fit a run-stuffing style, then you're welcome to be critical but you won't be happy.

 

As I see it, we have a really promising group of defensive talent crafted to stop the pass in this pass-happy NFL.

 

Most of the high profile players on defense that Beane has drafted or signed as FA have not panned out including Edmunds, Addision, Oliver, etc.

 

And yes not going to lie, I hate the 'bend but don't break' style of defense because when it breaks so to speak it's not pretty (see both games against KC)

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

 

And yes not going to lie, I hate the 'bend but don't break' style of defense because when it breaks so to speak it's not pretty (see both games against KC)

 

Except it didn't really break the first time. It kept KC below their season average in points. We lost that game on offense. Granted, the AFCCG was ugly. 

[JohnNord]

2 hours ago, Process said:

 

Interesting. Johnson has looked good, would much rather have traded or cut Addison, who at this point brings very little to the table. 

 

At the end of the day someone had to go, so can't be mad at getting a draft pick out of it. 

 

If it was between Johnson and Obada, the Bills made the right call.  Obada dominated in the preseason and while he doesn’t play Special Teams, I think what brings as a pass rusher is greater than that what Johnson brings on ST.  
 

Of course, I would rather keep Johnson over Addison but I don’t think this was option

[Straight Hucklebuck]

24-year old former 7th Round-pick that has found a way to stick on this roster for 2-years, and we get a 6th back?

 

Why not just cut Addison and keep Johnson? 

[dave mcbride]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I couldn't disagree more strongly. 

Then quantify it. 

[Doc]

41 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I didn't necessarily just mean money. Loyalty matters to these guys and I suspect they had a frank conversation with Mario - a guy they both know and rightly have a ton of respect for - and said we want you to take a pay cut (which is what it was not just a restructure) to keep you on the team and there was an understanding from both sides that was the deal. I am not saying that is the only factor in the decision but I do think it played in.

 

I think that they don't believe Johnson has progressed enough in his first 2 years.  Plus Addison is a veteran and trading/cutting him would leave a pretty green DE room.  I'll certainly keep an ear out for Johnson on the Panthers (and hope that Addison outplays him).

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

54 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Because Addison is better than johnson today.  His value is also lower with a cap squeeze in place around the league.

 

I'm not absolutely certain that Addison is better today, but what I am certain of in spite of what many on this board seemed to think, in NFL it's very difficult to trade a 34 YO player, with a big contract, and who didn't do all that much last season.   If you look at talent produced per $$ spent, Johnson  is likely the better value, but there just isn't much value in cutting Addison as his hit would be close to what he's being paid.

[HappyDays]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Why not just cut Addison and keep Johnson? 

 

Addison and Johnson have totally different roles on the team. Addison is a rotational pass rusher. Johnson was just a special teams gunner. He was never going to see the field on defense. I don't know how many gunners we need but we still have Jones, Neal, and Kumerow on the roster. If McDermott and Farwell decide we only need two gunners then Kumerow is probably gone.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

27 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

And Obada doesn't play Special Teams. Which is the only reason I had them keeping Johnson and 6 DE's instead of 4 or 5. He may very well stay on. But I wouldn't look at Daryl Johnson being traded as a guarantee Obada makes it. I could very easily see them just keeping Hughes, Addison, Rousseau, Epenesa, and Basham.

 

Thought I read early on that Obada was playing ST??

 

Suppose too politically it just didn't make any sense for Carolina to trade for Obada, would make them look rather dumb.

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

I think that they don't believe Johnson has progressed enough in his first 2 years. 

 

As a pass rusher I don't think he's progressed at all. A lot of people in this thread are conflating "developing" with "young." Some players hit the NFL as good as they'll ever be. I don't see Johnson ever being more than a depth piece as a pass rusher. I'm guessing the Panthers traded for him for his special teams ability, and we have more than enough special teams players on the roster to get something back for one. I'm surprised this is even a controversial trade. Before training camp I had assumed Johnson would end up not making the team and he didn't do anything in camp or preseason to change that outlook.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Then quantify it. 

 

It is fewer snaps, I get that, but special teams errors can be momentum swings they can be easy scores, they are stolen possessions. Just looking at the numbers and saying "ah well it isn't a third of the game numerically" misses the point for me. Nobody is arguing it is as important as offense or defense but it isn't an after thought and if you treat it like that you will suffer. And it isn't just me that thinks this.... a lot of the best coaches in the NFL do too. I don't have the Bills 2018 special team yards given up to hand but it was a lot and it hurt the team. Equally I know Roberts had the best overall return numbers across two disciplines in the league last year. That helped the team.

[Logic]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I may get flamed for this, but ST players are fairly interchangeable. It's an area where coaching really matters because you're not putting your best talent out there; rather, you're putting guys out there who can fulfill an assignment and be basically functional at running, blocking, and tackling. You don't want untalented morons on ST, but let's not overvalue it. The Bills hardly punted very little last season (relatively speaking) and most kickoffs were touchbacks. They have a big-leg placekicker, so I expect that to continue. 

Some special teams players ARE interchangeable, it’s true. 
 

The really good ones, though, add value to your kick and punt units — both coverage and return. It’s why guys like Taiwan Jones, Tyler Matakevich, and Matthew Slater have 10 year careers in the NFL.

If the really good special teams players of the league were so easily replaceable, you’d think they wouldn’t have such career longevity, since they often don’t contribute much on offense or defense.

 

Im not saying Bam was in that “really good” tier, necessarily, though recent comments by Beane and Farwell indicate that he may be. I’m just saying that in a game that often features small margins of victory, field position and special teams play matter, and Bam helped in those areas.