Intriguing article: The Best Interior Run Defenders Probably Won’t Make Your Defense Better (538)

[Patrick Duffy]

2 hours ago, Max Fischer said:

I’m not aware of evidence that proves Edmunds “isn’t good” shooting the gap

I think I remember seeing some say at times he would hit the wrong gap and not about being bad at hitting the gap in general? I don't know, but I do recall seeing some talk about he hit wrong gap here and there before for what it's worth.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sheneneh Jenkins

[Solomon Grundy]

All I’m looking for is someone to push the pocket from the interior!! I’m good on the outside with AJ/Hughes/Rousseau 

[BuffaloRebound]

Pretty amazing article.  It suggests that teams are better off being bad against the run to coax opposing offenses to run the ball more frequently.  Crazy times. 

[Solomon Grundy]

4 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

I think the big 330lb, 1-tech, run-stopping specialist is certainly not a high-demand position.

 

Run-stopping hasn't become less important, it's just that the evolution of the game has changed how teams stop the run.

 

If you're run-stopping ability makes a team pass more, that's good. It means you're making them one-dimensional. If you can't stop the pass at all, then that's a whole 'nother problem.

 

I think the Bills would love to force teams to pass and then get after it. They can do that with a high powered offense that puts the opponent in a hole. If they can do it by stopping the run on any given Sunday, then that's icing on the cake.

Jordan Davis in next year’s draft would put them over the top. Wanted Jeffrey Simmons when he came out

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Max Fischer said:

I’m not aware of evidence that proves Edmunds “isn’t good” shooting the gap, but I’m quite certain he isn’t asked to play that role. If anything that’s what Milano, Klien and even Poyer do much more often. 
 

I think he isn't good at it.  He isn't a physical hitter.  He doesn't have great burst. 

 

But I don't think it matters. It isn't his job. 

[Desert Bills Fan]

In the goal line stand video: interesting that Edmunds was blocked out of the play and the runner was headed right for that hole. Luckily Klein crashes down , with Poyer right on his tail to make the stop. Star rag dolling the lineman was fun to see. Also Oliver stood up his man and was holding the edge.

 note that Milano also got blocked out of the play ( couldn’t get off the block) - Star and Ed held up that center and left side, denying running lanes - so that wasn’t an issue.

[Max Fischer]

1 hour ago, Desert Bills Fan said:

In the goal line stand video: interesting that Edmunds was blocked out of the play and the runner was headed right for that hole. Luckily Klein crashes down , with Poyer right on his tail to make the stop. Star rag dolling the lineman was fun to see. Also Oliver stood up his man and was holding the edge.

 note that Milano also got blocked out of the play ( couldn’t get off the block) - Star and Ed held up that center and left side, denying running lanes - so that wasn’t an issue.

Not to belabor the point, but it’s a years long pattern that Edmunds’ role isn’t to shoot that gap but to protect against the play action. Klien can’t do that, he’s much more suited for what he did. The MLB job is changing to reflect the pass-happy league. The Ray Lewis era is over. 

[Thurman#1]

Makes total sense to me.

 

The run defense and run offense are the third and fourth most important phases of the game, and have been for many years.

 

Doesn't mean they're entirely unimportant. They're not. But passing is what the game is about these days. Having the other two phases also be strong makes your team more bulletproof, but the key is the passing game.

 

It's not a mistake that there are so very few Brandon Spikes types out there these days.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I think he isn't good at it.  He isn't a physical hitter.  He doesn't have great burst. 

 

But I don't think it matters. It isn't his job. 

 

 

I'm not sure I agree with your contention that he isn't good at it. He appears to be good at it sometimes, though if what you mean is that he isn't excellent at it, or nearly as good as he is in other areas, I'd agree. It's true he isn't a mauler or a guy who often blows people up, though again he does it sometimes, such as on the goal line stand where he stoned the RB at the one last year. But he's too tall and rangy to consistently blow up guys. He doesn't have an easy time getting underneath them. It tends to be squattier guys who are the real slobberknockers.

 

Totally disagree with you about the burst, though. His draft evaluations speak pretty eloquently about that:

 

"Edmunds is an explosive athlete with rare physical gifts for a linebacker of his stature. He possesses both quick short-area burst to close in on the ball and recovery speed to track down ball carriers in pursuit. "

 

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/tremaine-edmunds-nfl-draft-profile-and-scouting-report-249

 

"Edmunds combines elite size, speed and explosiveness into a productive, versatile linebacker package ... Twitches for a second when it is time to make a play ... Combines length with rare reactive athleticism and agility to access and tackle opportunities from unconventional angles"  (Zierlein)

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/tremaine-edmunds/32004544-4d00-0000-c30c-56fb5191e34f

 

"Sometimes his amazing athleticism helps him to recover and still be in position to make the plays, but at the NFL level, playing against better athletes, he will need to improve his play recognition skills drastically."

 

https://www.cover1.net/draft-recap-round-1-pick-16-lb-tremaine-edmunds/

 

 

Those were the first three that came up. All of the evaluations mention athleticism burst and quickness very positively.

 

I think he's good at it depending on the situation, but that it's not his greatest strength, or even close.

 

Agreed that it generally isn't his job.

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair enough.  But the counter argument is that when a team sets out to stifle the pass - as the Bills did in their first meeting with the Chiefs and were "successful" with to the tune of "only" 225 yds ....if that team still makes 245 rushing yards, as the Chiefs did, it has two effects:

 

1) the opponent still sustained several long drives culminating in a TD, so the pressure is on our offense to score points

2) the opponent may dominate TOP unless the Bills also manage to sustain long scoring drives, meaning they're keeping our potent O off the field

 

In running the ball for those 245 yds we couldn't stop, the Chiefs dominated TOP 37:45 to 22:15.  The end result is we had to score more points in less time.  It didn't work out too well for us.

 

I don't know that I agree that it was a good plan.  If our offense had been patient in return, able and willing to sustain long drives and able to score a TD instead of a FG, it might have worked better, but when our O was having trouble finding a rhythm we had nothin'

 

 

Yeah, there is a legit counterargument there. You'll tend to get fewer drives, as the other team burns time.

 

But when you hold the Chiefs to 26 points, your defense has done a pretty good job. The Chiefs averaged 29.6 a game.

 

The Chiefs offense averaged 29.6, but their defense averaged allowing 22.6 a game, and we only managed 17, far below what they can generally be touched for. And it was worse than that. We only scored our 2nd TD, going from 10 points to 17, when the game was all but over, with 6 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

 

The problem that game was mostly with our offense.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Thurman#1

[CSBill]

Okay, I'm buying the idea of not giving away the farm to have a great interior run stopper.But, it sure would be fun to have one. And, I think Star is better at it than we at TBD have given him credit for.

[Governor]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair enough.  But the counter argument is that when a team sets out to stifle the pass - as the Bills did in their first meeting with the Chiefs and were "successful" with to the tune of "only" 225 yds ....if that team still makes 245 rushing yards, as the Chiefs did, it has two effects:

 

1) the opponent still sustained several long drives culminating in a TD, so the pressure is on our offense to score points

2) the opponent may dominate TOP unless the Bills also manage to sustain long scoring drives, meaning they're keeping our potent O off the field

 

In running the ball for those 245 yds we couldn't stop, the Chiefs dominated TOP 37:45 to 22:15.  The end result is we had to score more points in less time.  It didn't work out too well for us.

 

I don't know that I agree that it was a good plan.  If our offense had been patient in return, able and willing to sustain long drives and able to score a TD instead of a FG, it might have worked better, but when our O was having trouble finding a rhythm we had nothin'

I think it was a good plan considering that we were down a few players if I remember correctly.

[Shaw66]

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I'm not sure I agree with your contention that he isn't good at it. He appears to be good at it sometimes, though if what you mean is that he isn't excellent at it, or nearly as good as he is in other areas, I'd agree. It's true he isn't a mauler or a guy who often blows people up, though again he does it sometimes, such as on the goal line stand where he stoned the RB at the one last year. But he's too tall and rangy to consistently blow up guys. He doesn't have an easy time getting underneath them. It tends to be squattier guys who are the real slobberknockers.

 

Totally disagree with you about the burst, though. His draft evaluations speak pretty eloquently about that:

 

"Edmunds is an explosive athlete with rare physical gifts for a linebacker of his stature. He possesses both quick short-area burst to close in on the ball and recovery speed to track down ball carriers in pursuit. "

 

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/tremaine-edmunds-nfl-draft-profile-and-scouting-report-249

 

"Edmunds combines elite size, speed and explosiveness into a productive, versatile linebacker package ... Twitches for a second when it is time to make a play ... Combines length with rare reactive athleticism and agility to access and tackle opportunities from unconventional angles"  (Zierlein)

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/tremaine-edmunds/32004544-4d00-0000-c30c-56fb5191e34f

 

"Sometimes his amazing athleticism helps him to recover and still be in position to make the plays, but at the NFL level, playing against better athletes, he will need to improve his play recognition skills drastically."

 

https://www.cover1.net/draft-recap-round-1-pick-16-lb-tremaine-edmunds/

 

 

Those were the first three that came up. All of the evaluations mention athleticism burst and quickness very positively.

 

I think he's good at it depending on the situation, but that it's not his greatest strength, or even close.

 

Agreed that it generally isn't his job.

Thurm -

 

Thanks for doing the research, but what they describe is not what I see.  And I think what you say - too tall and rangy, is correct and part of the problem.  

 

I don't see burst.   I see good open field speed, but not great acceleration.   I don't see him beating blockers to the gap, and I don't see him slipping blocks.   He doesn't beat runners into the gap, and he doesn't burst through the line and appear in the QB's face on blitzes.   Maybe you're correct - he isn't bad at that stuff, but I think in a different system, one that required him to be that kind of tackle-for-loss middle linebacker, he'd be average at best.  He isn't a mauler, as you say.   

 

That's why so many people around here are down on him.  They expected and they want Keuchly or someone.  They wanted London Fletcher playing behind a nasty 1-tech or 0-tech guy, diving into holes and stuffing runs at the line of scrimmage.   It's just so clear now that that is not what McDermott wants.  

 

People should look at the video of the fourth-and-1 stop at the goal line.   That's vintage Edmunds.   Klein is slashing into the gap, slipping a block, moving laterally behind the line of scrimmage to make the stop.  Edmunds is up right, behind the line, just playing off his blocker and reading.  Now, I know people will look at that and say it's terrible, Edmunds isn't attacking, he isn't shedding the blocker, there's instinctual play on display.  Well, fine, that's all true.  But to those people think that Frazier and McDermott don't look at the film?  Do they think they don't see that?   So, why don't they do something about it?  After three seasons, it's clear - they don't do something about it because Edmunds is doing exactly what he's been coached to do.  I mean, he isn't even trying to plug a gap.   If diving into some gap was his job on that play, Edmunds would be mired so far down the bench, he'd be outside 716.  

 

So, whether you're correct about his ability to play the slashing, run-stuffing linebacker or I am, it's pretty much beside the point.  He isn't asked to be that guy.  Just like Star isn't asked to be a sackmeister and Knox isn't asked to be Lee Smith.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, there is a legit counterargument there. You'll tend to get fewer drives, as the other team burns time.

 

But when you hold the Chiefs to 26 points, your defense has done a pretty good job. The Chiefs averaged 29.6 a game.

 

The Chiefs offense averaged 29.6, but their defense averaged allowing 22.6 a game, and we only managed 17, far below what they can generally be touched for. And it was worse than that. We only scored our 2nd TD, going from 10 points to 17, when the game was all but over, with 6 minutes left in the 4th quarter.

 

The problem that game was mostly with our offense.

 

I don't think it's that simple.  We didn't just give up points with our plan, we gave up TOP.  If your offense doesn't have the ball, it can't score. 

 

Especially if the offense is having trouble figuring out what it can do successfully, it needs to get the ball back so it can figure it out.

 

Chris Simms Unbuttoned had a good piece on it just after the game.

 

I'm not saying the offense had a good game, but just pointing at them (all on the offense) is missing my point.

[BuffaloRebound]

Edmunds issue is his ball skills.  His length and speed shrink the field, but the book on him seems to be you can still throw his way because he doesn’t make many plays on the ball.  

[dorquemada]

10 hours ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

I think I remember seeing some say at times he would hit the wrong gap and not about being bad at hitting the gap in general? I don't know, but I do recall seeing some talk about he hit wrong gap here and there before for what it's worth.

 

Watching the game Saturday, several of those runs up the middle, Edmunds absolutely shot the wrong gap. 

[hondo in seattle]

16 hours ago, MJS said:

This is what I've been talking about. Everytime the Chiefs run the ball on us, that is keeping the ball out of the hands of Mahomes, Kelce, and Hill. It severely limits their potential for an explosive play.

 

So yeah, let teams run the ball on us and force them to execute 15 play drives to score on us. Chances are they will not always be able to do that. Sometimes, yes, but not all the time.

 

Build the defense to stop the pass and get after the QB.

 

This is a very good argument.

But there's a greedy side  to me that says we should be able to stop anything the offense tries to do.  We should render them helpless and break their spirits.  

[marky]

Adjust for QB. Darnold vs. Brady. Cousins vs. Rodgers. If you are down 17 points in the 4th quarter, yes, you will be better at stopping the run. They'll get a few first downs, your QB sucks and throws a pick, and it's over. Also adjust for situation. If it's 4th and goal for the game, are your guys going to make the stop? In that situation, would you rather have Quentin Williams or Fletcher Cox? It's always owner, then coach, then QB.

[TEC]

We know the key to stopping a great offense is bringing with pressure with four. 

Tackles for loss and "blockeating" isn't a negative, but you simply can't have one dimensional players on the DL. 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by TEC

[Jauronimo]

17 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The game plan McDermott and Frazier used first time round against the Chiefs last year was a good plan. I get it that fans hate it. A lot of them grew up when football was about toughness first and toughness last and having yards piled up against you on the ground was an affront to your manhood. But that isn't the NFL anymore. It so nearly worked too. An inch away from a forced fumble that would have likely won us the game and then a blown coverage on a broken play on a 3rd down scramble drill. The NFL used to be a run and stop the run league. It is now a pass and stop the pass league.

Fans would have loved the game plan if our offense had gotten anything done in either matchup.  Daboll had no answers in either contest.