Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 1, 2021 Posted September 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said: We don't know which players are and are not vaccinated on the Bills, and even if you are, your position group can be affected by vaccination status. For example, I don't think it's pure coincidence that the Bills had three WR unvaccinated (now two) and that we kept 7 WR which is virtually unheard of. Those 7 WR affects most other units, considering we would love to have kept Johnson but no room for him, another OL but no room, maybe Hollister but no room, another CB but no room. Do we know this for absolute sure? Of course not. But again I think it's almost impossible to imagine that Beane, McD, Daboll and Chad Hall did not strongly discuss the fact that Beasley, Davis and McKenzie were not vaccinated regardless of their public stance. Isn't that re-framing the issue though? I thought the issue was whether Urban's claim that "he considered players' vaccination statuses when making roster cuts and he was the only one who admitted it", indicated that other GMs and coaches are "lying about Covid" if they said they didn't? To me that means, "I have three CB, I can keep two, I'm going to keep the two that are vaccinated" I think coaches and GMs look at things like anticipated injury frequency when deciding how many players they need to keep at different positions. Now maybe this year they factored in chance of losing multiple players as close contacts, when deciding that. But all things considered, the Bills wound up with 6 WR on the roster, same as last year (Stevenson went to IR, just as Hodgins did last year). Overall, their numbers match pretty closely with how they've built the roster last year and the year before. The exception is DL and TE. We kept 11 DLmen, which is 2 more than we kept last year - but that seems to have more to do with signing Obada then drafting 2 guys back to back, creating a logjam given McDermott's strong opinions on the importance of veteran leadership in each room. That's probably the biggest factor in the numbers game, and there's no reason to think Covid vaccination status factored into that - they have a crowd of young developmental guys BUT McDermott and Frazier aren't willing to "bet the season" on those guys yet, not until they actually get their feet wet in the regular season.
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted September 1, 2021 Posted September 1, 2021 5 hours ago, BigBuff423 said: Surprised by the cut, Dee Virgin leaves a big hole to fill...... What happened to Harry Beavers? Used to see alot of 'em 1
ColoradoBills Posted September 1, 2021 Posted September 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said: What happened to Harry Beavers? Used to see alot of 'em Sorry, I have to do this. 2
Kelly the Dog Posted September 1, 2021 Posted September 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Isn't that re-framing the issue though? I thought the issue was whether Urban's claim that "he considered players' vaccination statuses when making roster cuts and he was the only one who admitted it", indicated that other GMs and coaches are "lying about Covid" if they said they didn't? To me that means, "I have three CB, I can keep two, I'm going to keep the two that are vaccinated" I think coaches and GMs look at things like anticipated injury frequency when deciding how many players they need to keep at different positions. Now maybe this year they factored in chance of losing multiple players as close contacts, when deciding that. But all things considered, the Bills wound up with 6 WR on the roster, same as last year To me it doesn’t at all mean just the flat I have 3 and can only keep 2. It’s the whole roster because how many you keep on one unit affects others. Star is unvaccinated. They kept 5 DT. Maybe one more is. Maybe ONE of the several reasons they kept 5 is Star. That means it affected their thinking and decisions. That extra DT, like the WR example, affects the different units. 1
The Dean Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 3 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said: Lions just cut Dean Marlowe. Wouldn't really mind him back on the PS although I liked what I saw from Josh Thomas. I'd love to see Dean back on the team. He seemed to come through when called upon, for the most part. 2
Chandler#81 Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 Ditto. But Beane -being coy- wouldn’t reveal the mystery guest coming in tomorrow to ‘tour’ and be signed to the PS. Marlowe doesn’t need a tour. My guess is another DB -perhaps a guy they coveted in the Draft but was gone before we picked..🤔 1
BarleyNY Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well, this could just be me, but I think there's a lot more shades of gray in it than that. I think most people have multiple factors driving a decision. If they don't mention ALL of them when asked, are they lying? Or are they telling the truth, but not the whole truth? When we exchange information with a 15 or 30 minute presser and multiple reporters asking multiple questions, is there even room to tell the whole truth if you want to? So, for example when Beane says cutting Hollister was "really a numbers decision. we went heavy at DL" is he telling the truth? Sure. We did go heavy on DL, and he does have to make numbers decisions. Is he telling the whole truth? Almost certainly not. The Bills also chose to go "heavy" at WR (if one can say that of the Skinny Boy Club), including a WR who has TE-type height and is a good downfield and backfield blocker and good STer, Kumerow. So Beane could truthfully say "we felt keeping another WR in Kumerow offered more to the team than keeping Hollister at TE". Is it lying if he doesn't say that? I don't think so. He doesn't have time or obligation to tell the whole truth about his decision making process. There's also a "do right by your peeps" aspect, why shouldn't he do right by Hollister by saying only positive things in public? Someone could point out that it's not just a numbers game, Sweeney who we haven't seen a lot out of made the roster when Hollister (who has shown something in PS) didn't. Beane could respond that Sweeney is stronger and has shown more blocking potential. He could point out Sweeney is locked up for 2 years and Hollister only one, so if they score them similarly it makes sense to keep the 2 year guy. Is it lying if he doesn't say that? (See above) And (totally hypothetical, I have no knowledge) supposing Sweeney is vaccinated and Hollister isn't, and other things close to equal, keep the guy who's vaxxed. Why would Beane have a special responsibility to share that facet of his decision making process or be tagged with lying, especially when a player's vaccination status is in truth, a private matter unless the PLAYER chooses to disclose it? I think framing it as "reward lying and punish honesty" is kind of simplistic. I am always bewildered by those who think GMs owe the fans every last bit of information. If anything, they get punished by the media (and occasionally the league) when they say too much. Beane did everyone a favor in your example. Even Hollister by basically saying that he is good enough to be on the team, but there just wasn’t room with the direction we went. Even if there was a little bit of a white lie in that, there was no harm done and it was a kind gesture. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 12 hours ago, The Dean said: I'd love to see Dean back on the team. He seemed to come through when called upon, for the most part. I don't think we will, though. I think the Bills believe Damar Hamlin has earned the spot he' received. 17 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: I am always bewildered by those who think GMs owe the fans every last bit of information. If anything, they get punished by the media (and occasionally the league) when they say too much. Exhibit A IMO: Meyer 1
Sherlock Holmes Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 Everson Griffen was released as far as I know.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 13 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said: To me it doesn’t at all mean just the flat I have 3 and can only keep 2. It’s the whole roster because how many you keep on one unit affects others. Star is unvaccinated. They kept 5 DT. Maybe one more is. Maybe ONE of the several reasons they kept 5 is Star. That means it affected their thinking and decisions. That extra DT, like the WR example, affects the different units. Gentle reminder that aside from guys who have come out and given their opinion publicly, we really don't know vaccination status - a guy could have been in the process of getting vaccinated but still be subject to league quarantine rules for unvaccinated folks. I certainly can't argue that it's possible Covid protocols and their possible impact influenced Beane's decisions on who to keep, but let's look at this for a second. What did every fan watching practice/games and every media member say? "Wow, the Bills have a logjam at WR, they have some really tough decisions to make with their speedy draft pick Stevenson and Kumerow playing 🔥🔥 at WR and ST." "Wow, Zimmer is really stating his case for a roster spot. Dang, Phillips got dinged, he was actually looking really good!" "DE 🔥🔥🔥 I know we just signed him, but maybe we'll have to cut Obada. Or I know - cut Addison AND Hughes and keep all the young guys. What a log jam!" We know the Bills coaches stated position is that we missed Star last season and Butler/sometimes Oliver were playing out of position, and that our biggest need is to "affect the QB" more. The two spots where we seemed to have a surfeit of talent were WR and DL So let's look at the numbers, after cuts/IR/resigning: 2020: QB (3) RB (4) TE (4) WR (6) IOL (5) T (4) DT (4) DE (5) LB (6) CB (5) S (4) 2021: QB (2) RB (4) TE (3) WR (6) IOL (5) T (4) DT (5) DE (6) LB (6) CB (5) S (4) After all the dust settled, the numbers at each position are remarkably similar across the board. The differences are 1 less QB (most teams only keep 2) and 1 less TE, which positions were used to keep extras at DT and DE. Looks like they "robbed" the offense at two positions where the depth was not inspiring (QB and TE) to "pay" positions where they would otherwise have had to sacrifice a recently drafted player/promising young player OR a veteran they regard as proven/leadership But it's entirely explainable by where the draft picks were, what everyone saw in training camp, and McDermott's oft-stated desire to keep veteran leadership in each room (eg not cut vet DTs/DEs) - no need to hypothesize that Beane would be lying if he were asked if Covid decisions influenced the choices or if they were influenced by vaccine. 🤷♂️ Personally I don't think Urban deserves extra "honesty" points while everyone else is "lying". There may be some Covid influence, can't rule that out. But I think Meyer is just being an arrogant tool, believing he can publicly flout NFL policies without consequences, and indulging in some grandstanding. Could just be me. 11 minutes ago, Sherlock Holmes said: Everson Griffen was released as far as I know. Re-signed? https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/vikings-re-sign-griffen-add-14-players-to-practice-squad/ar-AANZuBk 1
The Dean Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't think we will, though. I think the Bills believe Damar Hamlin has earned the spot he' received. He was resigned by Detroit today anyway. But I was thinking more along the lines of him over Jaquan
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, The Dean said: He was resigned by Detroit today anyway. But I was thinking more along the lines of him over Jaquan Marlowe is 29. Jaquan Johnson is 25 and under contract thru 2022. We need to retain and develop young players if we're going to keep this thing building.
The Dean Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Marlowe is 29. Jaquan Johnson is 25 and under contract thru 2022. We need to retain and develop young players if we're going to keep this thing building. I just hope Jacquan can meet the challenge when called upon the way Marlow did.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 18 minutes ago, The Dean said: I just hope Jacquan can meet the challenge when called upon the way Marlow did. That's always the question when replacing a solid vet with a younger player, right? The Bills have several of those ?? on the roster besides Johnson for Marlow: -Isaiah McKenzie in the KR/PR role filled by all-pro Andre Roberts last season - Big Shoes -Tommy Sweeney apparently in the "in-line blocker/leak out as outlet receiver" role filled by Lee Smith last season -Sweeney in the apparent "sees the field every down, can catch and block" backup TE role filled by Tyler Kroft last season -Spencer Brown/Tommy Doyle in the backup OT role filled by Ty Nsekhe last season -[Someone among our young DE] in the "Run Plugger" role filled by Trent Murphy last season -? Basham and Obada in the "play inside or out" role filled by Q Jefferson last season -Dane Jackson in the backup/split time at #2 CB role filled by Josh Normal last season -some combination of Lewis, Griffin, and Wildgoose in the "what if both starting CB can't go?" role. I think the reason we don't hear so much stressing about this is: most of these are backup roles, and McDermott and Beane have built a certain "trust level" in their personnel decisions and ability to coach players up with the fans.
The Dean Posted September 2, 2021 Posted September 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: That's always the question when replacing a solid vet with a younger player, right? The Bills have several of those ?? on the roster besides Johnson for Marlow: -Isaiah McKenzie in the KR/PR role filled by all-pro Andre Roberts last season - Big Shoes -Tommy Sweeney apparently in the "in-line blocker/leak out as outlet receiver" role filled by Lee Smith last season -Sweeney in the apparent "sees the field every down, can catch and block" backup TE role filled by Tyler Kroft last season -Spencer Brown/Tommy Doyle in the backup OT role filled by Ty Nsekhe last season -[Someone among our young DE] in the "Run Plugger" role filled by Trent Murphy last season -? Basham and Obada in the "play inside or out" role filled by Q Jefferson last season -Dane Jackson in the backup/split time at #2 CB role filled by Josh Normal last season -some combination of Lewis, Griffin, and Wildgoose in the "what if both starting CB can't go?" role. I think the reason we don't hear so much stressing about this is: most of these are backup roles, and McDermott and Beane have built a certain "trust level" in their personnel decisions and ability to coach players up with the fans. I really can't disagree with any of this. But with regard to Hollister, I don't think it's as much about him in particular (at least it isn't with me). But more about Beane's stated desire to upgrade the unit from last year. Well, maybe that is Sweeney returning and the progress that he thinks Knox made in the offseason. OK, i guess I will buy that. I can't believe he thinks Morris is the upgrade, but what do I know. Gilliam was here last year and is now a FB. Can he play TE in a pinch? Sure. But I'm thinking if you are upgrading the position, you aren't looking at a part timer for that. Since they were also reported to be interested in trading for Ertz, I'm thinking they weren't 100% sold on their current dept at the position. Some have asked, "why would you care so much about a 3rd stringer?" The thing is, nearly every 53 roster prediction I read before the cuts had Hollister either as the starter or #2. I don't think even ONE had him as the 3rd string TE. Maybe everybody was wrong,. Well, actually they WERE wrong, But you don't find that surprising that the most experienced TE on the roster, and the one they seemingly chose to upgrade the position, was cut? I found it interesting and surprising. And with players this young, I doubt age is a driving factor. Hollister is 27, that is plenty young for a TE. Now I'm all about trusting McBeane and I'm not stopping now. They have to have seen something that gives them confidence in this group. I sure hope so. I really hope that next year, the FO isn't in the same TE bind they seemed to be in last year. And I say, right up front, the complaining about TE, #2 CB, lack of blazing speed with the WR's is all interesting and has some merit. This is basically the same team that went 13-3 last year and missed the SB due to one poor game. So I certainly not panicking too much. Just finding a few moves interesting.
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