Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 3

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Re both Cody Ford and Doyle, you wonder if the Bills want to be more patient, given that they gave away Wyatt Teller and we all know how good he is. 
 

Ford was moved all around his first season between tackle and guard, and was injured a lot last year. Maybe he just needs more time? 

Amazing that the Bills basically traded DK Metcalf and Wyatt Teller for Cody Ford.  Hard to argue with what Beane has done but this was an epically bad maneuver.

[Fan in Chicago]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea thought Andre Smith was good again. I am pretty sure that group is settled. Edmunds, Milano, Klein, Smith and Matakevich. They will also hope to sneak Dodson and Giles-Harris onto the PS and just carry 5 on the active roster to allow them to keep Bam Johnson.

I was unable to watch the game but I surmised from the GDT that Edmunds didnt have a good night.

What is your assessment and how serious of an issue is the second level run defense?

Edited August 29, 2021 by Fan in Chicago

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

2 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Amazing that the Bills basically traded DK Metcalf and Wyatt Teller for Cody Ford.  Hard to argue with what Beane has done but this was an epically bad maneuver.

yeah, a clear swing and miss. 
 

That said, for every miss, Beane seems to get many more hits. For example, I was randomly reading a draft recap of the 2018 draft. Beane was accused of overreaching on Dawkins (who projected to maybe being able to compete with Jordan Mills at RT), and reaching on Milano (who was viewed as maybe ST contributor).  
 

Reading stuff like that makes me feel better about some of the misses!

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Fan in Chicago said:

I was unable to watch the game but I surmised from the GDT that he didnt have a good night.

What is your assessment and how serious of an issue is the second level run defense?

 

Not particularly serious. The Bills will give up some yards on the ground at times but I am not sure how many games they are going to lose to teams who just wanna run it on them. The bigger issue last year was the play action that was set up by the run. That is where I will be watching when the season starts. It wasn't Henry who beat us in Tennessee for instance. It was Tannehill off the run fakes.

[Fan in Chicago]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not particularly serious. The Bills will give up some yards on the ground at times but I am not sure how many games they are going to lose to teams who just wanna run it on them. The bigger issue last year was the play action that was set up by the run. That is where I will be watching when the season starts. It wasn't Henry who beat us in Tennessee for instance. It was Tannehill off the run fakes.

The game I had in mind was the playoff game against the Colts. Rivers skewered us.

Also, seeing how the Pats** are built for this season, 2 TE and ground and pound is meant to challenge our D. I know it is too early to worry but run D & D against screens can kill us especially if BB exposes those weaknesses and we face similar teams in the playoffs.

That the O will score plenty is not in doubt.  

[FLFan]

14 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

The game I had in mind was the playoff game against the Colts. Rivers skewered us.

Also, seeing how the Pats** are built for this season, 2 TE and ground and pound is meant to challenge our D. I know it is too early to worry but run D & D against screens can kill us especially if BB exposes those weaknesses and we face similar teams in the playoffs.

That the O will score plenty is not in doubt.  

That style of offense is easy enough to defend if you know it’s coming because there are no other options.  Yes Rivers had a really good day (although not good enough to win) but he is a hall of fame QB and NE has none of those to put it kindly. 

[HappyDays]

It's too bad Lamp couldnt stay healthy. I thought he would have been an upgrade as a pass protector at one of the guard spots. Ford and Feliciano are both better run blockers, and in this offense that skill set just doesn't fit.

 

Also I would add Edmunds to the bad night. I rewatched the game last night and he was personally responsible for a lot of big plays. There was that one play where Love found an absolutely wide open receiver in the middle of the field. The Packers ran a misdirection run fake that Edmunds bit on hard. While pursuing the fake ball carrier, he got pushed to the ground by an O-lineman and slowly got up just in time to see a huge pass completion in the area of the field he had vacated. I can't say for sure if the open man would have been his responsibility, but it was a bad look for him.

Edited August 29, 2021 by HappyDays

[TFBillsfan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea thought Andre Smith was good again. I am pretty sure that group is settled. Edmunds, Milano, Klein, Smith and Matakevich. They will also hope to sneak Dodson and Giles-Harris onto the PS and just carry 5 on the active roster to allow them to keep Bam Johnson.

Love the way Andre Smith hits! Wish we could see that same type of hitting from Edmunds but understand that’s not the way he plays.

[Shaw66]

Gunner -

 

Thanks for these reports.  They're excellent.   I never have been good at watching the line play, so I really appreciate those offensive line comments.   

 

A couple of reactions.  First, Tommy Doyle.   I wouldn't be so quick to give up him.  Except for the guys taken in the first 30-40 spots in the draft, rookie linemen don't start.  They come into the league woefully underprepared for what the NFL demands of them, and they need two or three years to develop.   I think they took Doyle for his body without any serious expectation that he'd be NFL ready after a year, let alone after training camp.   So, he may be struggling, but I'd guess the Bills will try hard to hold onto him.

 

Ford.  I hope you're wrong, but I doubt you are.   I wanted his size and talent on the line, but Beane may simply have missed on this one.   We'll see. 

 

Lewis.  My thought as I watched him being undressed a couple of times was that above all else, McDermott demands that you execute to the extent of your physical ability EVERY PLAY.   Consistent execution is essential.   That's why, I think, Levi Wallace keeps starting - he does his job every play.   He may not be physically able to make every play we'd like, but he always executes his assignment.   Lewis doesn't, and on McDermott's teams, failure to execute is fatal. 

 

And that's why Hamlin stands out as a keeper.   It's so interesting that he was taken so late in the draft, and his college coach said he's the guy from Pitt most likely to have along career in the NFL.   The guy just seems to execute.  

 

Fromm.   I agree with you.   I've always thought Fromm has a good chance of being a solid journeyman backup.   He doesn't have the arm to be an NFL starter, but he's disciplined.   It's easy to see him, in a year or two, being a better version of Barkley.   He really seems to get it; if he had to play, he's not going to make stupid mistakes (at least until the fourth quarter in a tight game, when he knows he has to make something happen).   I don't know if he makes it to the PS - I assume he does; all I know is that he isn't the train wreck that some people seem to think he is.  

 

Dawkins just isn't a truly dominant left tackle, so while he's trying to get back to full speed, he's going to have those moments.   I know it's heresy in some corners around here, but I think there's a good chance that Spencer Brown is the starting left tackle in a season or two.  He has some raw talent that Dawkins doesn't.  

 

Finally, the elephant in the room that you didn't talk about:  DE.  Beane said during the broadcast that they've had calls about trade possibilities at the DE position.   You can't ever be sure about Beane, but it sounded like he was going to be considering possible deals today and tomorrow.   So, I don't recall seeing Addison on the field.  Was he sitting because his spot is secure, or because they didn't want to get hurt and spoil a trade?   Hughes played.  Was he on the field to show him off as possible trade bait, or to tune up for the opener?   Who knows; maybe neither.  Basham showed up a few times, and the broadcasters mentioned that he looked better in week 2 and throughout practice leading up to week 3.  They talked about Bam Johnson like he's making it, and the coaches comments about him suggested that Johnson was making it.   Where was Obada yesterday?   

 

I have no idea where they're going at DE, but something's got to give. 

 

Finally, Ferguson most definitely is not an afterthought.   100% execution is his specialty; anything less than that could lose a game.  We saw it yesterday, in a meaningless game that was completely in hand.  So, his status is certainly a concern.  If Epenesa has to spend next week at practice hanging out with Haack and Bass, so be it.  He's not getting to anyplace near where Ferguson is in that job, but he can't be rolling balls back to the holder.  

[SectionC3]

12 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Gunner -

 

Thanks for these reports.  They're excellent.   I never have been good at watching the line play, so I really appreciate those offensive line comments.   

 

A couple of reactions.  First, Tommy Doyle.   I wouldn't be so quick to give up him.  Except for the guys taken in the first 30-40 spots in the draft, rookie linemen don't start.  They come into the league woefully underprepared for what the NFL demands of them, and they need two or three years to develop.   I think they took Doyle for his body without any serious expectation that he'd be NFL ready after a year, let alone after training camp.   So, he may be struggling, but I'd guess the Bills will try hard to hold onto him.

 

Ford.  I hope you're wrong, but I doubt you are.   I wanted his size and talent on the line, but Beane may simply have missed on this one.   We'll see. 

 

Lewis.  My thought as I watched him being undressed a couple of times was that above all else, McDermott demands that you execute to the extent of your physical ability EVERY PLAY.   Consistent execution is essential.   That's why, I think, Levi Wallace keeps starting - he does his job every play.   He may not be physically able to make every play we'd like, but he always executes his assignment.   Lewis doesn't, and on McDermott's teams, failure to execute is fatal. 

 

And that's why Hamlin stands out as a keeper.   It's so interesting that he was taken so late in the draft, and his college coach said he's the guy from Pitt most likely to have along career in the NFL.   The guy just seems to execute.  

 

Fromm.   I agree with you.   I've always thought Fromm has a good chance of being a solid journeyman backup.   He doesn't have the arm to be an NFL starter, but he's disciplined.   It's easy to see him, in a year or two, being a better version of Barkley.   He really seems to get it; if he had to play, he's not going to make stupid mistakes (at least until the fourth quarter in a tight game, when he knows he has to make something happen).   I don't know if he makes it to the PS - I assume he does; all I know is that he isn't the train wreck that some people seem to think he is.  

 

Dawkins just isn't a truly dominant left tackle, so while he's trying to get back to full speed, he's going to have those moments.   I know it's heresy in some corners around here, but I think there's a good chance that Spencer Brown is the starting left tackle in a season or two.  He has some raw talent that Dawkins doesn't.  

 

Finally, the elephant in the room that you didn't talk about:  DE.  Beane said during the broadcast that they've had calls about trade possibilities at the DE position.   You can't ever be sure about Beane, but it sounded like he was going to be considering possible deals today and tomorrow.   So, I don't recall seeing Addison on the field.  Was he sitting because his spot is secure, or because they didn't want to get hurt and spoil a trade?   Hughes played.  Was he on the field to show him off as possible trade bait, or to tune up for the opener?   Who knows; maybe neither.  Basham showed up a few times, and the broadcasters mentioned that he looked better in week 2 and throughout practice leading up to week 3.  They talked about Bam Johnson like he's making it, and the coaches comments about him suggested that Johnson was making it.   Where was Obada yesterday?   

 

I have no idea where they're going at DE, but something's got to give. 

 

Finally, Ferguson most definitely is not an afterthought.   100% execution is his specialty; anything less than that could lose a game.  We saw it yesterday, in a meaningless game that was completely in hand.  So, his status is certainly a concern.  If Epenesa has to spend next week at practice hanging out with Haack and Bass, so be it.  He's not getting to anyplace near where Ferguson is in that job, but he can't be rolling balls back to the holder.  

Addison played fairly late into the game.   Like your point about Gunner Bill.  I enjoy reading his thoughts, too. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by SectionC3

[34-78-83]

5 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Agree with all of this.

 

Cody Ford is the worst pick of the Beane era by a mile when you consider the opportunity cost.  He’s just not a football player.  Total scrub.

Careful with this one. Keep in mind that players develop, especially under this staff. Lot’s of true film analysts ( cover 1 Erik Turner , etc) have stated he’s by far ( like not close) our best run blocker and is fairing decently enough in pass pro this off season. 

[Shaw66]

49 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Addison played fairly late into the game.   

Thanks. 

[Reader]

13 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

Careful with this one. Keep in mind that players develop, especially under this staff. Lot’s of true film analysts ( cover 1 Erik Turner , etc) have stated he’s by far ( like not close) our best run blocker and is fairing decently enough in pass pro this off season. 

 

Yeah, they're also ignoring the fact that Ford played great in the first two preseason games. I'm not sure which Ford we'll get during the regular season, but it's not like he has been absolutely terrible all camp.

[HappyDays]

Speaking of players that were getting snaps late in the game, Oliver was still getting snaps at the start of the 2nd half when other defensive starters were off the field. That has actually been a theme throughout the whole preseason. What are we to make of that? It makes me wonder if the staff is somewhat down on him and trying to motivate him to take his game to the next level.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, 34-78-83 said:

Careful with this one. Keep in mind that players develop, especially under this staff. Lot’s of true film analysts ( cover 1 Erik Turner , etc) have stated he’s by far ( like not close) our best run blocker and is fairing decently enough in pass pro this off season. 

 

I thought he played well last week. But go watch the two plays I referenced in that first drive yesterday. Not good. 

[Patrick Duffy]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I thought he played well last week. But go watch the two plays I referenced in that first drive yesterday. Not good. 

I get your point and all, but I mean you're pointing out just 2 plays. Lots of players have a bad play or 2 throughout the course of a game. It happens. With that said, in your opinion, did the plays he did well doing his assignment out number those 2 bad ones that stick out to you?

[GunnerBill]

55 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Speaking of players that were getting snaps late in the game, Oliver was still getting snaps at the start of the 2nd half when other defensive starters were off the field. That has actually been a theme throughout the whole preseason. What are we to make of that? It makes me wonder if the staff is somewhat down on him and trying to motivate him to take his game to the next level.

 

Yea has played into the 3rd the last two weeks. I wouldn't read too much though... Zimmer and Butler were playing into the 4th. It was because they only had 5 DTs up and it was hot so I think as much as anything it was about still having a rotation. Other than their first 4 they only had Bryant. When Oliver came out late / end of 3rd Boogie moved inside more.

5 minutes ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

I get your point and all, but I mean you're pointing out just 2 plays. Lots of players have a bad play or 2 throughout the course of a game. It happens. With that said, in your opinion, did the plays he did well doing his assignment out number those 2 bad ones that stick out to you?

 

I think he looked off balance generally. To me Boettger just looks more balanced in pass pro and his footwork is more consistent if a little scruffy at times. Ford definitely gets his feet too wide apart and then ends up lunging because he can't shuffle. If the Bills were a run first offense I'd put Cody Ford in to start, but the type of offense we are Boettger (who as I say gave up the hit on Allen on the TD throw to Moss so wasn't faultless himself) would be my guy. 

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Yea has played into the 3rd the last two weeks.

 

Oliver only played 6 snaps last week vs Chicago.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Simon said:

 

Oliver only played 6 snaps last week vs Chicago.

 

Oh my bad. For some reason I had in my head he stayed in last week too. 

 

In that case I am even stronger of the view it was just about having enough guys for the rotation in the heat last night. The other backend DT who played last week was IR'd this week wasn't he?

Edited August 29, 2021 by GunnerBill

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

It's too bad Lamp couldnt stay healthy. I thought he would have been an upgrade as a pass protector at one of the guard spots. Ford and Feliciano are both better run blockers, and in this offense that skill set just doesn't fit.

 

Also I would add Edmunds to the bad night. I rewatched the game last night and he was personally responsible for a lot of big plays. There was that one play where Love found an absolutely wide open receiver in the middle of the field. The Packers ran a misdirection run fake that Edmunds bit on hard. While pursuing the fake ball carrier, he got pushed to the ground by an O-lineman and slowly got up just in time to see a huge pass completion in the area of the field he had vacated. I can't say for sure if the open man would have been his responsibility, but it was a bad look for him.

Play you’re referring to is at the 3:35 mark. Edmunds fits in Agap for his run responsibilities and stays with RB leaking flat. That’s been his job and his cues for run/run fakes. Guy who ends up w the ball is lined up as a TE and it’s actually Milano who lets him go by biting on playaction. 
 

*you can run the video on YouTube at .25x speed to slow it down