Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 2

[NickelCity]

1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said:

I'm probably going to get flamed for this opinion, but I'm going to say it anyway:

 

A lot of hay has been made regarding Stevenson's punt return for a TD. I have read posts on this site declaring that Stevenson has "won" the K/PR position from McKenzie. That he has "guaranteed" himself a spot on the 53. One such post declared "Kumerow is out." 

 

And, yeah, he was very fast, and shifty, and sure, Lil Dirty muffed one. But listen, in preseason games-- especially late in preseason games-- coaches have a lot of bubble players out there on kicks, and punts to see if they can handle special teams duties in a real game. We should all know that the players who are low on the depth chart are basically required to be able to play special teams, and preseason games are the coaches' best opportunity to evaluate them. And, the thinner a team is in depth (like Da Bears), the crappier the bubble players are going to be.

 

Am I the only one who thought that return looked a little too easy? Don't get me wrong-- Stevenson certainly increased his stock with that play. But, I suspect that people are making a much bigger deal out of it than perhaps it is.

 

Flame away.

 

This seems a bit overwrought. The posts in reference, if they're what I've seen, have quite a bit more nuance to them than what's paraphrased. 

 

In other words, I doubt anyone thinks that Stevenson has the starting returner job locked up. It would be a big surprise to see him out there as returner against the Steelers. 

[MasterStrategist]

1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said:

I'm probably going to get flamed for this opinion, but I'm going to say it anyway:

 

A lot of hay has been made regarding Stevenson's punt return for a TD. I have read posts on this site declaring that Stevenson has "won" the K/PR position from McKenzie. That he has "guaranteed" himself a spot on the 53. One such post declared "Kumerow is out." 

 

And, yeah, he was very fast, and shifty, and sure, Lil Dirty muffed one. But listen, in preseason games-- especially late in preseason games-- coaches have a lot of bubble players out there on kicks, and punts to see if they can handle special teams duties in a real game. We should all know that the players who are low on the depth chart are basically required to be able to play special teams, and preseason games are the coaches' best opportunity to evaluate them. And, the thinner a team is in depth (like Da Bears), the crappier the bubble players are going to be.

 

Am I the only one who thought that return looked a little too easy? Don't get me wrong-- Stevenson certainly increased his stock with that play. But, I suspect that people are making a much bigger deal out of it than perhaps it is.

 

Flame away.

I haven't seen anyone claim he should or is the starting return man all of a sudden, possible I've overlooked some posts.

 

what I've seen, and agree with, is that he's unlikely to get through waivers if we cut him.  So more posters now advocating to keep him.

 

It's hard to overlook his speed and then not get excited as a fan/coach/staff when you see a rookie just take a 79 yard punt return and make it look easy (as you said).  He also made the clutch 4th down deep catch in game 1, helping to set up the game winner. 

 

What I think, and just my 2 cents, Beane & staff saw a premier return man who was one of the best in college football.  We also just lost Andre, who they coveted, so they purposely targeted a player in Stevenson who could possibly fill that return role (this season or future) while developing his receiver skills.  Makes sense to keep an explosive player on the 53, if you eventually see him taking over the return duties

[Kelly the Dog]

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

If epenesa is better than Jerry, he should start @ RE.  If he’s not, Jerry should start @ RE.  My money is on Jerry.  Or do they plan on Jerry starting @ LE opposite Epenesa while bringing the rookie Rousseau off the bench?   I just don’t think Jerry will be asked to come off the bench. 

I think, if they keep Addison and Hughes, that those two and Epenesa and Rousseau will all play approximately 50% of passing downs. 
 

Rousseau has looked surprisingly good at setting edge on run plays too. The few he has been in on. AJ is an unknown on run plays in his new body/weight although he is responsible and decent against run. 
 

personally I would trade/release Addison but McDermott loves him. It’s possible but I wouldn’t bet on it. 
 

That said, other positions may be a bigger factor in roster spots than the internal competition at them. Like keeping 6 or 7 WR because of Stevenson may be a bigger factor in the number of DEs we keep that who they would like to keep. I don’t think we need 7 DE. But Rousseau, Basham and AJ along with Hughes IMO are locks. Addison, Obada and Bam all warrant serious consideration. I don’t see how we keep them all. 

[Richard Noggin]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Come on.  He's 31st on the all-time passer rating list, and he's 18th among all active players.  He is most definitely a starter in the NFL.  He's won over half his game, and that's while playing on some demonstrably bad teams.  

Maybe he's NO LONGER a starter in the NFL? While he played at an above average level for several seasons with the Bengals, I just don't see it anymore. He is a fringe starter at best, and a solid backup at worst. If Dalton is your starter in 2021, then you've got a QB problem. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Seems like a good place to put this Joe B assessment of the same thing (risers/fallers)

https://theathletic.com/2782792/2021/08/22/bills-risers-and-fallers-devin-singletary-zack-moss-answer-call-at-rb-ot-depth-is-a-concern/?source=emp_shared_article&redirected=1

 

Risers:

Quote

OT Spencer Brown

Up until his injury, this was Brown’s best showing with the Bills. The 2021 third-round pick started the game at right tackle and looked as comfortable in pass-blocking sets as we’ve seen him. He was even working against All-Pro pass-rusher Khalil Mack and finished a block on Mack to the ground on one rep. Now, it’s fair to wonder whether Mack was really giving his maximum effort in a meaningless preseason game, but Brown’s movement skills and nasty demeanor were a highlight. Brown also switched over to the left side after Dion Dawkins’ day was over and looked proficient as a pass blocker there as well. This was an excellent sign of development for Brown after a problematic summer full of bad beats. The Bills will have to hope his knee injury isn’t severe.

Singletary

Moss

(calls out Kumerow for throwing an excellent block in space for Motor)

Quote

CB Cam Lewis

Not an obvious riser for flash plays, but it’s hard not to be impressed with how Lewis has hung around in this cornerback competition. The Bills started Lewis, primarily a nickel corner, on the boundary on the left side against the Bears. Lewis more than held his own, showing the instincts and toughness to help on tackles as well. He took the first three defensive drives there before swapping with Siran Neal and playing nickel corner through the rest of the first half. Once again, Lewis was a strength for the Bills’ defense in that role. We can’t forget that the Bills benched Taron Johnson last season in favor of Lewis, only for Lewis to suffer a hand injury 10 snaps into his first game. With Lewis’ versatility, performance, the team’s past trust in him and lack of depth at cornerback, do not be surprised if Lewis cracks the 53-man roster.

DE Epenesa

CB McCloud

Quote

DE Boogie Basham

The Bills used Basham deep into the fourth quarter, just like they did last week against the Lions. Their 2021 second-round pick didn’t do much in his first-half appearances, but it looked like he turned it on in the second half. Basham was using his body and physicality well to force the issue in the pocket, even flushing out Bears quarterback Justin Fields from the pocket on consecutive snaps. Basham was going against the Bears’ bottom offensive line unit, but splashy plays are what the Bills need to see at this point. They also used him again at defensive tackle on obvious pass-rushing situations, which speaks to his versatility. While Basham is still well behind where Rousseau is at this point, getting those hints of what the future could hold are vital. As a non-special teams contributor, Basham is still likely trending toward being a game-day inactive to begin the season. Right now, he’s likely behind the better-performing Jerry Hughes, Mario Addison, Rousseau, Epenesa, Efe Obada and noted special teams asset Darryl Johnson for a jersey on game days. Still, Basham took a step in the right direction, which is what the Bills needed from a rookie who hasn’t met his draft status expectations in his first summer.

 

Fallers

Quote

Guards Cody Ford and Ike Boettger

The Bills guards’ ineffectiveness as pass blockers Saturday was concerning. Ford, Boettger and Jon Feliciano are in a three-person battle for two starting guard spots, yet no one has locked one down. Feliciano missed out on the “fallers” list because he had only two offensive series, while Ford and Boettger played almost the entire first half. Of the two, Ford is probably the better pass blocker right now, but they are both giving up too many pressures. The starting guard spots and pass-blocking ineffectiveness have gone from a sneaky concern to a potentially big problem for the 2021 season.

(I feel as though Boettger in particular did a capable job in pass protection last season, and would probably be capable this season - though one wonders if there's a difference between RG and LG for either of them)

CB Siran Neal - BamBam is stout on ST, but if the question is "who is our backup CB?" I agree with Joe B that Neal doesn't seem to be the answer

LB Tyrel Dodson

CB Rachad Wildgoose

Quote

WR Duke Williams

While players like Kumerow, Marquez Stevenson and even Brandon Powell have thrived in the preseason games, Williams is falling to the back of the pack. It’s not for lack of playing time, either. Williams’ first offensive appearance was on the team’s second drive of the game. He proceeded to play some snaps on every series into Davis Webb’s first appearance in the fourth quarter. The Bills targeted Williams only three times, and he made one catch for 8 yards. He struggles to separate from defenders, which was an issue once more against the Bears. The 53-man roster is out of the question, and at this point, you have to wonder if he’s even safe for the practice squad.

 

One thing I haven't heard anyone mention, good or bad, is Tanner Gentry.  He got a lot of playing time according to Sal Capaccio - 36% of the snaps, 27 snaps.  He had 1 reception on 1 target for 9 yds, which is better than a kick in the patooties I guess but what's up?  Is he not getting separation?  Does he need an orange "snow pole" to help the QB notice him?  What?

[Shaw66]

7 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Maybe he's NO LONGER a starter in the NFL? While he played at an above average level for several seasons with the Bengals, I just don't see it anymore. He is a fringe starter at best, and a solid backup at worst. If Dalton is your starter in 2021, then you've got a QB problem. 

If you have an average starter at QB, you have a QB problem.   The Bengals had a QB problem pretty much the whole time he was in Cincinnati.   You can't win consistently in the NFL if you don't have a top 10 QB.   It's not a good thing to have an average starter at QB.  Minshew, Fitzpatrick, Bridgewater, Goff, Dalton, Mullens, Newton and some others all are average starters.   Why are they average starters?   Because they're not top 10, by any stretch of the imagination, and they're all better than the guys who aren't starting anywhere.  That's what average is.  Now, they may be in different parts of their careers, and if I had to pick among them, I'd pick several over Dalton, but that doesn't mean that Dalton isn't in the group of guys who are average starters. 

[GunnerBill]

50 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

If you have an average starter at QB, you have a QB problem.   The Bengals had a QB problem pretty much the whole time he was in Cincinnati.   You can't win consistently in the NFL if you don't have a top 10 QB.   It's not a good thing to have an average starter at QB.  Minshew, Fitzpatrick, Bridgewater, Goff, Dalton, Mullens, Newton and some others all are average starters.   Why are they average starters?   Because they're not top 10, by any stretch of the imagination, and they're all better than the guys who aren't starting anywhere.  That's what average is.  Now, they may be in different parts of their careers, and if I had to pick among them, I'd pick several over Dalton, but that doesn't mean that Dalton isn't in the group of guys who are average starters. 

 

Minshew, Mullens and Dalton are backups. I believe Cam is too, he certainly did not play at a starting Quarterback level last year. I am willing to see how he looks this season given how late last year he was signed, but I suspect he is also now a backup Quarterback. 

 

Dalton in Cincy was, for the most part, the definition of a league average QB but since he tore ligaments in his throwing hand in 2018 he hasn't been that guy again. I definitely affected his ability to grip the ball and control accuracy. Prior to that injury he was at 1.8 touchdowns per interception. Since then he is all the way down at 1.3-1 and his yard per attempt has plummeted because as soon as he tries to drive it down the field the accuracy becomes a problem. Mitch Trubisky isn't starting anywhere but he is a better quarterback, right now, today than Andy Dalton. I suspect at least 4 of the 5 first round draftees are too, whether they start immediately or not. 

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I think, if they keep Addison and Hughes, that those two and Epenesa and Rousseau will all play approximately 50% of passing downs. 
 

Rousseau has looked surprisingly good at setting edge on run plays too. The few he has been in on. AJ is an unknown on run plays in his new body/weight although he is responsible and decent against run. 
 

personally I would trade/release Addison but McDermott loves him. It’s possible but I wouldn’t bet on it. 
 

That said, other positions may be a bigger factor in roster spots than the internal competition at them. Like keeping 6 or 7 WR because of Stevenson may be a bigger factor in the number of DEs we keep that who they would like to keep. I don’t think we need 7 DE. But Rousseau, Basham and AJ along with Hughes IMO are locks. Addison, Obada and Bam all warrant serious consideration. I don’t see how we keep them all. 

Agree with all of this.  Also seems to me that Obada is a lock.  Not based on anything that McD has said or done, but based on his play.  Dude is a beast of a man  and brings lots of versatility to our DL depth.  

[Shaw66]

52 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Minshew, Mullens and Dalton are backups. I believe Cam is too, he certainly did not play at a starting Quarterback level last year. I am willing to see how he looks this season given how late last year he was signed, but I suspect he is also now a backup Quarterback. 

 

Dalton in Cincy was, for the most part, the definition of a league average QB but since he tore ligaments in his throwing hand in 2018 he hasn't been that guy again. I definitely affected his ability to grip the ball and control accuracy. Prior to that injury he was at 1.8 touchdowns per interception. Since then he is all the way down at 1.3-1 and his yard per attempt has plummeted because as soon as he tries to drive it down the field the accuracy becomes a problem. Mitch Trubisky isn't starting anywhere but he is a better quarterback, right now, today than Andy Dalton. I suspect at least 4 of the 5 first round draftees are too, whether they start immediately or not. 

I here what you're saying, and you may be right about Dalton and his injury and where he is now.

 

But you are changing the definition of the word "starter" to make your point.   Whether you like it or not, there are 32 starters in the league.   With the exception of an occasional guy who's a short-term backup, like Trubisky, and with the occasional exception of a developmental guy, like Tua last season, the 32 best quarterbacks in the league are starting on the 32 teams.  Okay, take away the exceptions, and maybe it's 25 of the guys who are starting are the best QBs in the league.   They're all starters.   Fitzpatrick is an average starter.  Dalton was an above average starter, and maybe now he's a below average starter, but he's a starter (unless he loses his job).   Fitzpatrick is a great example.   He never was going to be a top-10 QB consistently in the NFL, but that doesn't mean he isn't an NFL starter.   The league is not, and probably never will be, full of quarterbacks who all are as good as Mahomes and Rodgers and Allen.   There's always going to be a top 10, and there's always going to be 22 other guys who are not as good but still are starters.   

 

Dallas was delighted to have Dalton as a backup to Dak precisely because he's an NFL starter.   Just like we're delighted to have Trubisky.  Why delighted?   Because it's very unusual for starter level talent to be available as a backup.  Why is it unusual?  Because by and large, they're starting.  

 

You can't say that that Gardner Minshew is not a starter.   He was, by choice, his team's starter in 2020.   He wasn't a backup playing because the starter was injured.  He was the guy his team chose to play.   He's a starter.  

 

We spent 20 years trying to convince ourselves that our team could win with one average or below average starter after another.  Tyrod Taylor was a starter in the NFL.   He was a starter because he was the best QB available under the circumstances.  That's how it played out.  We can't say, "well, Tyrod wasn't a starter."   He may not have been the starter we wanted, but he was most definitely a starter.   

 

Dalton has been a starter in the NFL for a long time, and maybe you're right, maybe his skills have deteriorated to the point where he no longer will be a starter.   But until he's not starting, he's a starter. 

[BADOLBILZ]

25 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Agree with all of this.  Also seems to me that Obada is a lock.  Not based on anything that McD has said or done, but based on his play.  Dude is a beast of a man  and brings lots of versatility to our DL depth.  

 

 

Yeah I think Obada adds physicality that they don't otherwise have in any of their ends.   He's not a good run defender but he will help wear down the OL in front of him.   

 

Also,  not talked about is that Addison played the Lorax LB role a fair amount last year..........so 5 LB's with Addison is like 6.

[GunnerBill]

26 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I here what you're saying, and you may be right about Dalton and his injury and where he is now.

 

But you are changing the definition of the word "starter" to make your point.   Whether you like it or not, there are 32 starters in the league.   With the exception of an occasional guy who's a short-term backup, like Trubisky, and with the occasional exception of a developmental guy, like Tua last season, the 32 best quarterbacks in the league are starting on the 32 teams.  Okay, take away the exceptions, and maybe it's 25 of the guys who are starting are the best QBs in the league.   They're all starters.   Fitzpatrick is an average starter.  Dalton was an above average starter, and maybe now he's a below average starter, but he's a starter (unless he loses his job).   Fitzpatrick is a great example.   He never was going to be a top-10 QB consistently in the NFL, but that doesn't mean he isn't an NFL starter.   The league is not, and probably never will be, full of quarterbacks who all are as good as Mahomes and Rodgers and Allen.   There's always going to be a top 10, and there's always going to be 22 other guys who are not as good but still are starters.   

 

Dallas was delighted to have Dalton as a backup to Dak precisely because he's an NFL starter.   Just like we're delighted to have Trubisky.  Why delighted?   Because it's very unusual for starter level talent to be available as a backup.  Why is it unusual?  Because by and large, they're starting.  

 

You can't say that that Gardner Minshew is not a starter.   He was, by choice, his team's starter in 2020.   He wasn't a backup playing because the starter was injured.  He was the guy his team chose to play.   He's a starter.  

 

We spent 20 years trying to convince ourselves that our team could win with one average or below average starter after another.  Tyrod Taylor was a starter in the NFL.   He was a starter because he was the best QB available under the circumstances.  That's how it played out.  We can't say, "well, Tyrod wasn't a starter."   He may not have been the starter we wanted, but he was most definitely a starter.   

 

Dalton has been a starter in the NFL for a long time, and maybe you're right, maybe his skills have deteriorated to the point where he no longer will be a starter.   But until he's not starting, he's a starter. 

 

Minshew was the starter to begin last season. He was not his teams starter by the end of it. He was benched for Mike freaking Glennon. Dalton lost his starting job for a period in his final season in Cincy in favour of Ryan freaking Finley and then spent last season as a backup quarterback, albeit one who played because the starter broke his ankle. He signed for Chicago who named him the starter. I put the chances of him still being the starter by week 6 at next to nil. He is a backup level Quarterback at this stage of his career. 

 

Guys who get benched for Mike Glennon and Ryan Finley are not starting Quarterbacks. You could certainly make the argument that the moment Tyrod Taylor finally ceased to be a serious option as a starting Quarterback was the moment he was benched for Nate Peterman. He has "started" for two teams since and last 2 or 3 games at most. That isn't redefining the word "starter" I just think for someone to be considered a true starting Quarterback they have to be able to hold a starting job for at least half a season without getting benched. Being named the starter week 1 only to be riding the pine before mid-season does not a starting Quarterback make. 

 

I'd argue that post Bledsoe (which is the only period I can really comment on) the Bills actually only had three guys who qualified as "average to below average starters" Fitz, Orton and Tyrod. They had a few others - Losman, Edwards, Manuel who were draft picks they gave some time as starters before accepting that they had not proven they deserved to start and then they had some guys who were backups who started because the organisation was awfully run - Kelly Holcomb and Brian Brohm spring to mind. 

 

 

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Minshew was the starter to begin last season. He was not his teams starter by the end of it. He was benched for Mike freaking Glennon. Dalton lost his starting job for a period in his final season in Cincy in favour of Ryan freaking Finley and then spent last season as a backup quarterback, albeit one who played because the starter broke his ankle. He signed for Chicago who named him the starter. I put the chances of him still being the starter by week 6 at next to nil. He is a backup level Quarterback at this stage of his career. 

 

Guys who get benched for Mike Glennon and Ryan Finley are not starting Quarterbacks. You could certainly make the argument that the moment Tyrod Taylor finally ceased to be a serious option as a starting Quarterback was the moment he was benched for Nate Peterman. He has "started" for two teams since and last 2 or 3 games at most. That isn't redefining the word "starter" I just think for someone to be considered a true starting Quarterback they have to be able to hold a starting job for at least half a season without getting benched. Being named the starter week 1 only to be riding the pine before mid-season does not a starting Quarterback make. 

 

I'd argue that post Bledsoe (which is the only period I can really comment on) the Bills actually only had three guys who qualified as "average to below average starters" Fitz, Orton and Tyrod. They had a few others - Losman, Edwards, Manuel who were draft picks they gave some time as starters before accepting that they had not proven they deserved to start and then they had some guys who were backups who started because the organisation was awfully run - Kelly Holcomb and Brian Brohm spring to mind. 

 

 

Then Mike Glennon and Ryan Finley were starters.   There are 32 starters.  When you get benched, you're not the starter, but absent injury, the player the team puts on the field is the starter.   And Dalton is still better than Glennon and Finley.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

I haven't seen anyone claim he should or is the starting return man all of a sudden, possible I've overlooked some posts.

 

There have been people who mistrust McKenzie based upon his career fumble history, added to the muff vs. the Bears, and are saying they'd rather see Stevenson back there based on Da Bears game and that runback.   I think it's a kind of "better the Devil you don't know than the Devil you know" philosophy.

 

I think the Bills will decide KR/PR based on the overall body of work in training camp and games, not based upon one game.  Word out of the public scrimmages was that Stevenson and Powell did not look as smooth and comfortable back there and were muffing punts.

 

And correct, the long catch and the TD on the punt return do make it less likely that he'd slide through waivers, so if we like his potential we kind of have to IR him or keep him on the 53.

 

Stevenson was seen in a walking boot on the sidelines Saturday, and not seen by reporters at practice on Sunday, so it's possible he's a candidate for IR.  If they IR him and want to bring him back, he's got to be on the 53 man roster to start the season.

 

FWIW, as far as I can tell Jake Kumerow *would* be subject to waivers if cut.

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Then Mike Glennon and Ryan Finley were starters.   There are 32 starters.  When you get benched, you're not the starter, but absent injury, the player the team puts on the field is the starter.   And Dalton is still better than Glennon and Finley.  

 

I agree Dalton is still better than those two. The bottom feeder teams each season often have 2 or 3 Quarterbacks play. Which one is the starter? Andy Dalton will be a starter week 1. He won't be a starter by week 6 (likely even earlier) because he isn't good enough to start. 

[Shaw66]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree Dalton is still better than those two. The bottom feeder teams each season often have 2 or 3 Quarterbacks play. Which one is the starter? Andy Dalton will be a starter week 1. He won't be a starter by week 6 (likely even earlier) because he isn't good enough to start. 

Fair enough.  As I've said, I don't know about Dalton, and I wouldn't want him.  

 

If I'm building a team, I start Fields.   Hard to argue with that, given the success that Murray and Jackson have had.  Cohen's a nice back, and they have some speed at receiver.   But someone after the game on Saturday said that Nagy may not have the luxury of a building year.  He may feel a lot of pressure to win this season - this may be his last chance.   Dalton actually may give him the better chance to pile up wins this season, as horrifying as that might sound to the average fan.  Fields may make more plays than Dalton, but he's almost certainly going to make more mistakes, too.   Bears ownership probably wants Fields playing; if I were Nagy, I'd have the conversation with the owner and let everyone get clear about whether they're looking for wins or development.   The fans seem to be so excited about Fields that the Bears probably can survive a down year with Fields learning on the job.  

 

Frankly, I have my doubts about Nagy - he couldn't figure out how to get the most out of either Foles or Trubisky.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Fair enough.  As I've said, I don't know about Dalton, and I wouldn't want him.  

 

If I'm building a team, I start Fields.   Hard to argue with that, given the success that Murray and Jackson have had.  Cohen's a nice back, and they have some speed at receiver.   But someone after the game on Saturday said that Nagy may not have the luxury of a building year.  He may feel a lot of pressure to win this season - this may be his last chance.   Dalton actually may give him the better chance to pile up wins this season, as horrifying as that might sound to the average fan.  Fields may make more plays than Dalton, but he's almost certainly going to make more mistakes, too.   Bears ownership probably wants Fields playing; if I were Nagy, I'd have the conversation with the owner and let everyone get clear about whether they're looking for wins or development.   The fans seem to be so excited about Fields that the Bears probably can survive a down year with Fields learning on the job.  

 

Frankly, I have my doubts about Nagy - he couldn't figure out how to get the most out of either Foles or Trubisky.  

 

And this is why they are in trouble. Because their timeline is off kilter. They allowed Ryan Pace and John Fox to draft Mitch as Fox went into a must win year and when Fox allegedly banged the table for Deshaun Watson. Then somehow Pace survives, Fox is fired and Pace convinces ownership they just need to let him hire an offensive wizard to fix Mitch. 

 

In comes Matt Nagy who despite having Mitch as his #4QB in 2017 presumably tells the Bears he can fix him in order to get the job. It works year 1, year 2 there is a regression so Nagy bangs the table for a "vet who knows my system" and in comes Nick Foles and Mitch's 5th year option is not picked up. They then do the Quarterback hokey-cokey in somehow slipping into the playoffs as a #7 seed in 2020 but move on from Mitch and in a year where both Nagy and Pace appear to be on the hotseat they draft Justin Fields. Nagy's system vetted is relegated to 3rd string, in comes Andy Dalton and Nagy announces him the starter because he saw the Mahomes sit 1 year plan in KC. The problem is if they go 0-4 then Nagy is fighting for his job and he will be forced to throw Fields in. If Fields is great maybe it works, but if he has the normal level of rookie struggle then Nagy and likely Pace are out and you now have a new GM and Head Coach who didn't select him who are tied to Justin Fields. 

 

It is the sort of sh*t the Bills used to do and fans would say things like "they are turning over every stone" to put a positive spin on it but it is organisational incompetence. Before Sean McDermott the problem wasn't that the Bills didn't want to win or weren't trying. It was that nobody in the building understood that winning isn't a magic switch, there isn't a formula you can take. There is a process to winning that you have to be totally committed to and everyone has to be committed to it and it you have to understand that before you can put it into practice. Thankfully we found our guy to lead us out of that mess. Come January I suspect the Bears will be looking (again) for theirs. 

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And this is why they are in trouble. Because their timeline is off kilter. They allowed Ryan Pace and John Fox to draft Mitch as Fox went into a must win year and when Fox allegedly banged the table for Deshaun Watson. Then somehow Pace survives, Fox is fired and Pace convinces ownership they just need to let him hire an offensive wizard to fix Mitch. 

 

In comes Matt Nagy who despite having Mitch as his #4QB in 2017 presumably tells the Bears he can fix him in order to get the job. It works year 1, year 2 there is a regression so Nagy bangs the table for a "vet who knows my system" and in comes Nick Foles and Mitch's 5th year option is not picked up. They then do the Quarterback hokey-cokey in somehow slipping into the playoffs as a #7 seed in 2020 but move on from Mitch and in a year where both Nagy and Pace appear to be on the hotseat they draft Justin Fields. Nagy's system vetted is relegated to 3rd string, in comes Andy Dalton and Nagy announces him the starter because he saw the Mahomes sit 1 year plan in KC. The problem is if they go 0-4 then Nagy is fighting for his job and he will be forced to throw Fields in. If Fields is great maybe it works, but if he has the normal level of rookie struggle then Nagy and likely Pace are out and you now have a new GM and Head Coach who didn't select him who are tied to Justin Fields. 

 

It is the sort of sh*t the Bills used to do and fans would say things like "they are turning over every stone" to put a positive spin on it but it is organisational incompetence. Before Sean McDermott the problem wasn't that the Bills didn't want to win or weren't trying. It was that nobody in the building understood that winning isn't a magic switch, there isn't a formula you can take. There is a process to winning that you have to be totally committed to and everyone has to be committed to it and it you have to understand that before you can put it into practice. Thankfully we found our guy to lead us out of that mess. Come January I suspect the Bears will be looking (again) for theirs. 

Thanks.  I didn't know the Bears' recent history.  When the timing is out of sync, it's a problem, because even if the owners are willing to be patient with the HC and GM to get the right QB in the building, the fans usually are not.  It's been amazing to watch the current Bills, because it was almost a textbook example of how to do it, with some luck added in.  Bills were lucky Marrone quit, and then the owners had the courage to fire Rex.   Then with a new coach and GM hired, the most important is the owners, GM and coach all being on board with a plan and having the patience to stick with the plan.  It all worked so well, they didn't have to be patient too long.    The Bills were smart enough to identify the right QB and work the draft to get him.  

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks.  I didn't know the Bears' recent history.  When the timing is out of sync, it's a problem, because even if the owners are willing to be patient with the HC and GM to get the right QB in the building, the fans usually are not.  It's been amazing to watch the current Bills, because it was almost a textbook example of how to do it, with some luck added in.  Bills were lucky Marrone quit, and then the owners had the courage to fire Rex.   Then with a new coach and GM hired, the most important is the owners, GM and coach all being on board with a plan and having the patience to stick with the plan.  It all worked so well, they didn't have to be patient too long.    The Bills were smart enough to identify the right QB and work the draft to get him.  

 

They also got lucky when the Browns passed on McD the year before. He should have got that job. They wouldn't wait because Carolina were in the Superbowl. But hey, we were due some luck!

[Mat68]

On 8/22/2021 at 6:11 AM, BillsFanThru-N-Thru said:

Also have to say that the starting offensive line handled Khalil Mack and the Bears front seven rather well too.

I rewatched the first quarter and Brown worked him.  Im not sure how much effort was given by Mack but impressive either way.  Brown looks like a swing tackle and if he sees the field I dont he comes back off.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They also got lucky when the Browns passed on McD the year before. He should have got that job. They wouldn't wait because Carolina were in the Superbowl. But hey, we were due some luck!

Good point.  And what if Allen had come out a year early.  Would McDermott and Whaley have passed on Allen and Mahomes and Watson?   If the Bears had taken Allen, would the Bills have take Trubisky at 10?

 

The whole thing has been so miraculous.