Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 1

[Saxum]

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Re CB depth, you wonder if Josh Norman may be an option. I wasn’t a fan of this, but his knowledge of the defense and the comfort level by the coaches might make him pretty serviceable. 

 

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

He didn’t go after his legs, he dipped his shoulder and beat the tackle….the tackle pushed Efe into the QB, Efe hooked a leg.  
 

It was a penalty based on the text book rule but it wasn’t a cheap shot.

 

1 hour ago, Da webster guy said:

league has been enforcing those calls for years now.

 

Efe got pushed into the qb but still needs to learn how to avoid the low contact.  Lions qb was lucky, could have been his season right there.

 

Maybe offense linemen also need to learn not to push defense linemen into QB since they supposed to be protecting them.

Offense lineman created penalty.

[Shaw66]

Good stuff, Gunner.   Thanks for doing this.   

 

I'm not the astute observer you are, but I'll throw in my thoughts here.

 

By the end of the game, I found myself asking a simple question:  Who LOOKS like he can play in this league?   Rousseau, for sure.  Rousseau should be getting snaps from day one.   He can play now, even though he certainly has a lot to learn. 

 

Spencer Brown.   I didn't see many of the things that are causing people to say he's not ready, and I'm sure he's not.  At tackle, consistency is essential, and he doesn't have it yet.   But watching him, I had no doubt that he's a player.  Quickness, determination, toughness are all there.  He looked to me like a a guy who will be a serious threat to take Dawkins' job down the road, and he could compete for the right tackle job this season.  He has the potential to be a dominant player.

 

Davis Webb.  Great understanding of the offense, decent arm.  Composed.   I can see him filing in for Allen in a well-oiled offense.   He's not going to make the plays Allen makes, but he'll be serviceable.   He may be a long-term solution at backup. 

 

 

Who looks like he CAN'T play in this league?

 

Fromm.  Maybe it's too early to tell, but there's some minimum level of physical skill that a player needs to have to play in the NFL.  It looked to me like Webb is above the line, and it looked to me like Fromm clearly is below it.  At Georgia, he was an extremely efficient technician, and he was physically talented enough compared to college players to make his share of big plays.   He doesn't look to me to have the physical talent to play at this level.

 

Dane Jackson, Wildgoose.  They looked like they don't belong.   But there's a multi-year learning curve in the NFL for everyone; Jackson should be further up the curve than he showed last night; Wildgoose may look better after a season on the PS.  

 

 

Other comments:

 

Basham's bulk surprised me.  I think Basham has been oversold to us, and we've oversold him to each other.  He's a late second round pick, and you say you had him in the third round.   That means he's a guy perhaps like Phillips, who despite the early enthusiasm about him, took three years to get to where he's now beginning to look like he can be a solid contributor.   Just solid, not a star.  Basham didn't look lost, and he showed he can fight.   He just has to learn to play at this level.   He rarely, if ever, saw offensive line talent like he sees in the NFL (even the Lions second team is great talent compared to an average college offensive line).   He needs to get stronger (like almost every other rookie lineman), and he needs to learn all the little things that offensive linemen do to win.  One of the great things about the McBeane process is that they only draft guys who desperately want to get better, and they've commented that Basham looks to be one of those.   So, we can expect him to fight and scratch and claw and study and lift and practice, and as time goes by, I expect he'll be a solid contributor.  

 

I was interested in two things going into the game.   Can the Bills run, and can the Bills stop the run?   On offense, I wasn't overly excited.  Yes, Singletary looks like he's returned to his 2019 style - hit the hole, then beat someone.   He's good at that, and he seemed to have lost that focus last season.  It was good to see him go last night.  But the offensive line wasn't dominating anyone - it seems the best the Bills can hope on offense is to create some seams and have a back scramble for 5 to 15 yards.  When they fall short of that, the run game stalls.  Breida didn't look explosive enough to change that.   It's almost as though Moss is a slightly bigger, tougher version of Singletary, and Breida is a slightly smaller, quicker version.   We'll see.  Williams is tough, but didn't stand out.

 

Defense against the run was, I thought, much more encouraging.  The first couple of series, when the Bills had a starter-level personnel on the field, with the backup linebackers, they were extremely active and closing on the ball carrier from all directions.  It looked like a swarm of good athletes just being more aggressive and quicker than the offense.   Question is whether that was one-time event, because they had something to prove, or whether the defense is going to play like that regularly.   You could see it in the pass rush, too.   It was frenetic.   And although I didn't watch him enough to say more, Epenesa looked more like the guy I thought he could be.

 

 

The Bills depth is amazing in one sense.  We've had all these years of looking at other teams' cast offs to find a guy who could help the Bills, and now it's turned.   You take a guy like Stevenson, who on lesser teams might actually be challenging for a starting spot.   He's clearly on the bubble, at best, and if he isn't on the 53, other teams will be interested.   Same problem with the rookie offensive linemen - one or both of Anderson or Doyle is likely to make the roster simply to protect them, and the hope is that they learn fast enough that later this season, when their number is called, they will be up to the task.  

 

I agree with you about the linebackers.   It was amazing to see them play that well.  Frankly, I think it's the process.   Talented buys, some now in their second or third season learning the system.   They looked like they knew where to go and how to get there in a hurry. 

 

Both lines have depth, too, and you're right, the defensive backfield looks thin.   I have to believe Neal will help more than he may have shown last night.  

 

Finally, one of the things that is so special about McDermott is that he insists that his players be excellent at executing their jobs, but he also insists that collectively, as a team, they're excellent.   He said it a couple of years ago - winning preseason games is important, because he wants his teams to learn how to win.  And that means EVERYONE has to learn how to win, not just the starters.  That means the starters are as happy winning when the scrubs do it as the practice squad is happy when the starters do it.   We've seen it several times, and we saw it again last night.   Both the Lions and the Bills managed the clock at the end of the half and the end of the game to give their teams opportunities in the two-minute drill.  It was a test of the offense and the defense and the special teams.  It's very important to McDermott that his team win in those situations, and there it was last night.   Hold the Lions to a field goal, then win your way down the field until all that was left was the last word.

 

Bass.  

 

 

[billsherd]

54 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

I won't say good/bad but instead call them concerns.

 

First off one comment on one of the Lions kickers, does he also play LB??  He could.  I wonder on kickoffs, do they tell him kick the ball then go break up the wedge.  From the size of him, think he could. (and yes that has been outlawed)

 

Backup OT is a concern in a number of ways.  Thought Doyle, Brown and particularly Hart looked shaky.  The issue though to me is how do they handle the numbers there.  Assume they keep the two rookies on the 53, do they really want to have to carry 5 OT's on the roster?  I believe Bates can play some tackle, but not sure how well, but still may be better than these three.  Or do they take a chance and cut Doyle and hope to get him onto the PS?  But even then who's the back up that's reliable?

 

Maybe a trade of one of our surplus DL or WR and throw in Doyle for a good back up OT as that also solves the numbers issue?  Or does Doyle get a paper cut and ends up on IR?  Think there may be a couple of these questionable IR moves made to breakup the log jam, or trades.

 

Admittedly without knowing blocking schemes, hard to totally fault one person, but it didn't look very good.

 

I tend to agree with Gunner in that Webb looked too good last night to sneak onto the PS.  What impressed me about him was his poise.  He doesn't have the physical skills, but won't seem to make dumb mental mistakes.  I was kind of surprised too how long they played him.  Could it be the Bills are trying to give the guy a break and show cased him either for a trade or if he is released to give him a good shot at sticking somewhere else?  If we're down to the 3rd string QB, we're in trouble anyway so maybe it doesn't matter.  Or they sign his replacement off the Sept releases.

 

Don't know what TV in Western NY was on, but for me out of town was the NFL network.  As normally done the broadcasters are the home crew.  I get it, it saves some money in meaningless pre-season games.  So if people in Buffalo have to watch the Detroit guys so be it, could always turn on the Bills radio broadcast too.  I'm assuming those were the Bills crew??

 

But you'd think the NFL network would say these games are being broadcast coast to coast, we'll use your local crew, but you have to at least give the line ups for the visiting teams and state who made the play, catch, run, tackle, etc. and pretend you at least know something about them.  In two weeks likely the Bills crew will be broadcasting back to Green Bay, I wonder if they are also this bad with ignoring the visiting team?

 

And then with 15 seconds left at exactly 10:00 right when Bass is lining up for the kick, they had to switch to the Cowboy-Cardinal game as God forbid a Dallas fan might miss the opening kickoff.  They did switch back just in time to see the kick, but then immediately back to Dallas.  If Detroit had ran the kickoff back for a TD, I never would have known.  Normally on Sunday games, showing the ending of a game takes president over the opening kickoff.

NFL network wanted to make sure fans of America's team don't miss a second of preseason game 1.

[pennstate10]

I thought the officiating was pretty marginal. The roughing and one helmet to helmet call have already been discussed. 
 

But in the first half, official throws a flag against Bills D. After long discussion, referree says 36 called for illegal contact prior to QB leaving the pocket. Here is a photo of official throwing the flag. I rewatched the play several times to make sure I had this right. When the flag is thrown (at the sideline), lions QB has taken 17 steps outside of the pocket. 
 

Im pretty sure that the discussion amongst the officials was “are you sure this happened while the QB was in the pocket”. And stubborn official says “yup, that’s what I saw”. 
 

BS. Send this guy back to the MAC. 

[BADOLBILZ]

Agree on all.

 

Rousseau being Rousseau...........every time he has stepped on a football field since 2019 he has done the same things.......regardless of the level of competition.

 

It's not going to be spectacular looking like Von Miller bending around the corner.........he's going to have issues with OL getting under his pads in the run game and end up on his back some.......but he produces plays that result in TFL's and sacks and, eventually, footballs getting dislodged.

 

The stride and the long arms have been talked about a lot..........but the enormous hands also make a tremendous difference in how that extended arm affects an OT........they aren't easy to get off and provide a lot of surface area to control the shoulder of the OT.    Sewell got a taste of that.    And with the OT at arms length, the already alert Rousseau gets to keep his eyes on the ball and react and make plays that most DE's will just blindly over-run or not be able to reach back far enough to make.

 

The style is not going to remind people of Bruce Smith but if he stays healthy he's going to put up numbers and make big plays.    And if he takes a Josh Allen-level attitude to improving he could transform into more than a stats guy.

 

Also I think you should add the @eball thread worrying about the Lions playing dirty to the loser's list........the Bills came out and murdered the Lions QB's and were clearly the more violent and chippy team with a ton of penalties.........this board would be petitioning the league office for an execution if one of the Lions DL authored that first Obada low hit.    

 

 

[Reader]

From my uniformed eye I thought Bates had a good night at center and a bad night at tackle.

 

I thought the line combo of brown, ike, bates, ford and doyle were mostly good with the three interior doing the best. It makes me wonder how our rookie tackles would do next to our top lineman in a real game.

[GunnerBill]

@Shaw66 just on Brown he is raw. There is a lot of natural talent there and a bit like Rousseau on defense you just can't coach his size and length. At times I think he seems to lack a bit of coordination of his limbs and personally I think his learning curve may be a little steeper than competing to start this year but could he make Williams expendable after this season or next and slide into that right tackle spot? Absolutely he could. Let Bobby Johnson and co do their work on him first. 

[Shaw66]

18 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Agree on all.

 

Rousseau being Rousseau...........every time he has stepped on a football field since 2019 he has done the same things.......regardless of the level of competition.

 

It's not going to be spectacular looking like Von Miller bending around the corner.........he's going to have issues with OL getting under his pads in the run game and end up on his back some.......but he produces plays that result in TFL's and sacks and, eventually, footballs getting dislodged.

 

The stride and the long arms have been talked about a lot..........but the enormous hands also make a tremendous difference in how that extended arm affects an OT........they aren't easy to get off and provide a lot of surface area to control the shoulder of the OT.    Sewell got a taste of that.    And with the OT at arms length, the already alert Rousseau gets to keep his eyes on the ball and react and make plays that most DE's will just blindly over-run or not be able to reach back far enough to make.

 

The style is not going to remind people of Bruce Smith but if he stays healthy he's going to put up numbers and make big plays.    And if he takes a Josh Allen-level attitude to improving he could transform into more than a stats guy.

 

 

Bado -

 

One of the best things I've seen written about Rousseau.  If he had top-end speed and quickness, he would have gone in the top 10.  He doesn't, and people had doubts about him.  But the combination of his size and strength, along with enough speed and quickness, and his style of play, is classic winning football.  It's as you say - he looks like he could play at any level. 

 

Jim Leonhard was one of my favorite players.  Strictly physically, the guy had no business playing in the NFL.   But he combined intelligence and determination with just barely enough speed and quickness to be a factor every time he stepped on the field.   Rousseau is like that, with better physical attributes.  

 

Watch his post-game interview.  It's all cool and he's happy.  But he isn't surprised he can play at this level.   And he clearly understands that he has a lot to learn.  

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Reader said:

From my uniformed eye I thought Bates had a good night at center and a bad night at tackle.

 

I thought the line combo of brown, ike, bates, ford and doyle were mostly good with the three interior doing the best. It makes me wonder how our rookie tackles would do next to our top lineman in a real game.

 

That wasn't the line. When those four were in left to right Hart was at RT not Doyle. Doyle only came in after Ford and Ike were done for the night. Did Bates go to tackle at some point? I thought he stayed inside. He looked good early in the run game. Not sure his pass pro is quite as clean. 

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

@Shaw66 just on Brown he is raw. There is a lot of natural talent there and a bit like Rousseau on defense you just can't coach his size and length. At times I think he seems to lack a bit of coordination of his limbs and personally I think his learning curve may be a little steeper than competing to start this year but could he make Williams expendable after this season or next and slide into that right tackle spot? Absolutely he could. Let Bobby Johnson and co do their work on him first. 

Fair enough.  I don't know how long it will take.  All I know is that watching him it was easy to see that he belongs in the league.  I expect he'll play a long time, for the Bills or someone else.  

[Reader]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That wasn't the line. When those four were in left to right Hart was at RT not Doyle. Doyle only came in after Ford and Ike were done for the night. Did Bates go to tackle at some point? I thought he stayed inside. He looked good early in the run game. Not sure his pass pro is quite as clean. 

 

That's a fair point, and a lot of us couldn't tell who was on the line last night anyways. When I rewatched the highlights I did notice that Ike and Ford were the guards, but I will look again.

[HappyDays]

Good night for Zimmer, bad night for Harrison Phillips. Joe Buscaglia pointed out that Zimmer barely played last night, while Phillips played the entire 1st half. That tells you where the coaches place them.

[Don Otreply]

Excellent assessment on all points GB, and a good read👍

[eball]

37 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Agree on all.

 

Rousseau being Rousseau...........every time he has stepped on a football field since 2019 he has done the same things.......regardless of the level of competition.

 

It's not going to be spectacular looking like Von Miller bending around the corner.........he's going to have issues with OL getting under his pads in the run game and end up on his back some.......but he produces plays that result in TFL's and sacks and, eventually, footballs getting dislodged.

 

The stride and the long arms have been talked about a lot..........but the enormous hands also make a tremendous difference in how that extended arm affects an OT........they aren't easy to get off and provide a lot of surface area to control the shoulder of the OT.    Sewell got a taste of that.    And with the OT at arms length, the already alert Rousseau gets to keep his eyes on the ball and react and make plays that most DE's will just blindly over-run or not be able to reach back far enough to make.

 

The style is not going to remind people of Bruce Smith but if he stays healthy he's going to put up numbers and make big plays.    And if he takes a Josh Allen-level attitude to improving he could transform into more than a stats guy.

 

Also I think you should add the @eball thread worrying about the Lions playing dirty to the loser's list........the Bills came out and murdered the Lions QB's and were clearly the more violent and chippy team with a ton of penalties.........this board would be petitioning the league office for an execution if one of the Lions DL authored that first Obada low hit.    

 

 

 

Good stuff on Rousseau.  As for Obada’s hit, I still don’t think it was dirty.  Just watched it again; he didn’t go for the knees and really just tried to wrap the QB’s leg up at the ankle.  It was a bad call in my opinion.

 

Side note: does anyone know if it is O-BAH-da or O-ba-DAH?

 

[Reader]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That wasn't the line. When those four were in left to right Hart was at RT not Doyle. Doyle only came in after Ford and Ike were done for the night. Did Bates go to tackle at some point? I thought he stayed inside. He looked good early in the run game. Not sure his pass pro is quite as clean. 

 

You're correct.

 

First line of offense.

 

Brown, Ike, Bates, Ford, Hart. Watching the replays Hart looks like the weak link though I do remember the TFL on the stretch play to the left being on Brown. That being said, Simon made a point how our play call simply wasn't good anyways.

[SCBills]

Unpopular take…..apparently
 

Show me Davis Webb can make the throws Fromm made on that 4th Quarter Drive and I’ll be on board with him as the unquestioned #3 this year and potential #2 next year. 
 

For the life of me, I don’t understand what I’m missing that so many are seeing…

 

Fromm had zero chance on multiple plays due to Hart literally blocking no one. 
 

Webb had a horrible intentional grounding penalty and made a poor throw on a pass Sweeney had to adjust to before turning up field.  All he did was dump offs and scramble.   What is everyone so excited about?

Im not saying Fromm is the answer, but I wasn’t blown away by Davis Webb. 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by SCBills

[Lv-Bills]

Along with all of the other things said in this thread, much of them having to do with technical stuff about Boogie, he had a less than stellar debut.  A lot of football really isn't that complicated as you simply have to beat your guy physically and usually you win.  There are obviously many ways to do that.  

 

However, what was alarming to me was that Boogie looked fat and slow for a DE.  Period.   After I discovered where he was on the field and watched for a few plays, he was extremely slow off the ball as well.  The worst player on the field with his first steps off the ball.  For a DE, unless executing some sort of stunt,  It was alarming to me.  However, it's also the first pre-season game, so not really a big deal yet.  However, it wasn't a great first impression.  I almost wondered that, if he really is as good as has being pushed out to us fans, maybe one day he moves inside? 

 

It can, and will, improve.  But first impressions were pretty rough.  It's so nice, however, to have such a good team.  Because while we need him, it's not the end of the world if he needs time to develop and maybe change some of his body makeup a bit.

[BarleyNY]

3 hours ago, eball said:

I just finished watching the game and my immediate post-game reaction was:  cut Hart.  He was brutal.

 

 

That’s exactly who Hart was with the Bungles.  I can’t believe he got another crack at the NFL and I can’t believe it was the Bills who gave it to him.  And I really, really, really can’t believe that we gave him $350k guaranteed.  I’ll get Beane my phone number if he wants to piss away any more money on someone who has no business playing in the NFL. 

4 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I am in no way knocking Rousseau here.  He did exactly what he was supposed to do.  Full points to him. Sewell’s set is garbage though.  He turned his shoulders and hips to the outside and lost all of his leverage.  He looked like a guy who hasn’t played in over a year and isn’t used to playing on the right side. 

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Thanks…. Scratching my head wondering why the Bills did absolutely nothing at corner all off-season. Still not too late….

Cost and quality is your answer…

 

not that we couldn’t use better backup CBs but it is what it is when looking at the bigger picture.

[SCBills]

Perfectly fine with Basham making the 53 and being inactive on gamedays.  
 

Put him on the Epenesa diet/routine and only activate in an emergency. 
 

*Hughes/Addison - Rousseau/Epenesa

*Star/Oliver 

 

*Basham Gameday Inactive

 

Two or Three spots left for Butler, Zimmer, Harry and Obada.