Fake-Fat Sunny Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 I think that MM and the Bills tend to look at this they other way around than many posters and the drive behind this question. In the dynamic between developing for he future or making the playoffs, they hope that the answer they choose does both things, but if they have to choose between the two, the question starts with the priority of making the playoffs now and it is to be hoped also develop for the future, rather than a plan to develop for the future and it is to be hoped also make the playoffs. The distiction of which comes first is all important in terms of two statements which pursue the same goals. MM and the gang seem to desperately want to develop for the future last year and seem to have made the decision to go with JP very early in the process, (probably at a point when we were 0-4). However, they could not do this at first because JP was hurt and then later because of the winning streak. In retrospect, I think they were done with Bledsoe early on, but darn if the team kept winning and that simply put making a real QB move or forcing Bledsoe into a 2nd string salary a deal to wait until the end of the season. Likewise, I think it will be the case this year. JP will get every chance to make it work, but if he is not doing the immediate job (even if he is learning valuable lessons) and the braintrust perceives that Holcomb provides a better opportunity to win a critical game that must be won to gain the playoffs, JP is sitting down.
eball Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 The thing is, it is NOT a given that JP will play up to the level of Drew in 04. The above may be hard for worshippers (not necessarily you) to grasp, but the possibility does truly exist. I hate to speak for another poster, but I think that Gavin was giving us a scenario which asks if staying with JP was worth the Bills not getting a playoff spot in 05 should he falter. Hopefully it will not come to this, but believe it or not, it is a distinct possibility, and a great discussion topic imo. 321067[/snapback] it's not a given, you're right -- hence my use of the word "if." but the standard i put forth isn't overly stringent. i think we'll all agree that bledsoe was mediocre at best last year, and the coaches never considered pulling him (at least not that we know). holcomb was not brought in to occasionally compete w/ JP. he was brought in as an insurance policy if JP is hurt or just fails miserably. i honestly believe that the probablity of JP playing adequately is significantly higher than the probability of him failing miserably. i don't think that's an unreasonable statement. and if such is the case (JP plays adequately), he's not going to be pulled regardless of the bills' record. if JP does fail miserably, then by all means i hope the bills make the change to holcomb.
d_wag Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 But why bring back Matthews? I would have expected a development QB as our 3rd QB. Why waste the money and roster spot on an old vet? 321081[/snapback] who says he even makes the roster? i don't think his roster spot is anywhere close to concrete.......he will have to compete against thompson and likely an UDFA.......if he doesn't make the roster it costs the bills next to nothing.......if he does, with the vet minimum, his cap charge would be marginally more then a rookies.......
marck Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 I listened to an interview with TD today on the Colin Cowherd show and he stated that the Bills were a good team who will aid JP in his development and that he does not expect him to carry the load. He cited our defense and special teams and also stated that JP has many weapons to work with on offense and should do well in a system deigned to play to his particular strengths. This will provide the Bills an opportunity to use JP similarily to the way that the Steelers used Rothlisberger last year. Additionally, we have the benefit of preparing our offensive gameplans around his capabilities whereas Pittsburgh designed their offense around Tommy Maddox who was injured and Big Ben had to play under that scheme. Plus, JP has had the benefit of one complete season with the Bills and this coaching staff, has some game experience and has had the entire offseason to develop and has worked very hard so far. I expect him to play well, make some mistakes and have some growing pains, but in reality looking at the front end schedule, Texans, at Tampa Bay, Atlanta, at New Orleans, miama and the Jets, we have a great chance to open up with teams that are not overpowering and have known weaknesses that can be exploited. By the time we have moved to the more difficult segment of the schedule, JP will have the requisite game experience to handle more complex game plans and will be much less prone to critical mistakes. TD is right, the team will carry JP early and his development will then add to the overall skills of the team. A lot of us are cautious about the upcoming season, many projecting we are likely to miss the playoffs again, mainly due to the fact we will have a rookie in all but name at QB with Losman. But many have also correctly pointed out that winning is the name of the game, that TD is close to the 'put up or get canned' threshold of his GM tenure, and that quite frankly Bills fans are sick and tired of not playing in the postseason. With all that said, the signing of Holcomb represents an interesting dynamic. As woeful as the Browns have been since their return, the few seasons they have been successful was in large part due to the inspired play of Holcomb. The braintrust at OBD surely knows this as well so the question is: Just how short a leash does JP have for the upcoming season? Will he play all season come hell or highwater to aid his 'development', or if he comes out of the gate pretty poorly will he get yanked to see if Holcomb can turn the bus around? I think as much as OBD talk up the season hinging on the development of JP, they won't hesitate to make a switch if the defense and special teams are holding up their end and they think Holcomb can create a spark. Thus writing off next season might be a tad premature. 321023[/snapback]
Alaska Darin Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 I'm torn on that. On one hand JP could play every game for his development and he'll build on that and be a success, on the other JP could play every game for his development and still end up failing, representing wasted time for Buffalo when the defense and ST were doing pretty damn good. At what point do you sacrifice your prospects development for the success of the team? 321042[/snapback] It's a delicate balance. Cleveland ruined Couch by completely buffooning his development. They played him too soon, left him in too long, didn't surround him with any talent at all, then dicked with him in the media. 1. They are going to have to let him take some lumps. The question is how many. Mularkey did an amazing job with Kordell, though KS definitely hit the wall and ended up (rightfully) on the scrap heap. JP has infinitely more potential, IMO. It remains to be seen if he can seize the day. 2. They've certainly surrounded him with talent, so his mantra isn't going to be "win all by yourself." While it's not quite the equivalent of giving him the keys to a Ferrari, it's also not the Yugo with 3 wheels that Couch was saddled with during his tenure in Cleveland. 3. They need to have a united front when dealing with the media. No throwing the kid under the bus.
Sound_n_Fury Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 But why bring back Matthews? I would have expected a development QB as our 3rd QB. Why waste the money and roster spot on an old vet? 321081[/snapback] Coach, mentor, father confessor. A much different relationship than Holcomb can play. A young QB, like that dude in NFLE, wouldn't know anything more about playing than JP, so he'd be just a body taking up space and dilute the amount of time Wyche has to spend with his star pupil.
Mickey Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 Winning is the only thing that matters and I think that if TD and MM were to conclude at any point that Holcomb clearly gives us a better chance of winning, they will start him. The real problems could start before the opener. What if JP stinks up the field during pre-season and Holcomb out plays him by a mile? It could happen. Who starts on opening day?
Bill from NYC Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 it's not a given, you're right -- hence my use of the word "if." but the standard i put forth isn't overly stringent. i think we'll all agree that bledsoe was mediocre at best last year, and the coaches never considered pulling him (at least not that we know). holcomb was not brought in to occasionally compete w/ JP. he was brought in as an insurance policy if JP is hurt or just fails miserably. i honestly believe that the probablity of JP playing adequately is significantly higher than the probability of him failing miserably. i don't think that's an unreasonable statement. and if such is the case (JP plays adequately), he's not going to be pulled regardless of the bills' record. if JP does fail miserably, then by all means i hope the bills make the change to holcomb. 321095[/snapback] >>>>>i honestly believe that the probablity of JP playing adequately is significantly higher than the probability of him failing miserably.<<<<< I think that the odds are closer to 50/50 when we look back on the history of round 1 qbs. Other than that, I agree with the rest of your post.
Bill from NYC Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 My worry is that he may play down to the level of Drew. 321093[/snapback] Methinks that you have been watching too much of Big Ben lately and not enough of most other rookie qbs.
VABills Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 who says he even makes the roster? i don't think his roster spot is anywhere close to concrete.......he will have to compete against thompson and likely an UDFA.......if he doesn't make the roster it costs the bills next to nothing.......if he does, with the vet minimum, his cap charge would be marginally more then a rookies....... 321097[/snapback] Matthews didn't just un-retire for the second time if he wasn't guarenteed a roster spot.
d_wag Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 Matthews didn't just un-retire for the second time if he wasn't guarenteed a roster spot. 321114[/snapback] well, frankly i don't buy that for second.........but even if that is the case, matthews wouldn't be the first player that TD stabbed in the back serving in the best interests of the team........
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 >>>>>i honestly believe that the probablity of JP playing adequately is significantly higher than the probability of him failing miserably.<<<<< I think that the odds are closer to 50/50 when we look back on the history of round 1 qbs. Other than that, I agree with the rest of your post. 321109[/snapback] The thing which gives me some hope that the chances are better than 50/50 that JP will be adequate (not perfect but a QB can make errors and even stink up the joint a few times and still be adequate) is that the standard for adequacy will be made much lower if the D and ST perform as well as they did last year. If WM runs the ball and runs it again (as the Bills failed to do against Pitts because they did not use WM enough afte an impressive first drive), the D steps it up a notch and does not give up over a 100 to a 4rd string rusher (as they did against Pitts, and the ST chips in with a TD here and there (as they did not do against Pitts as Clements laid the ball on the carpet and Lindell missed a chip shot FG) then JP will be fine even if he plays badly. One of the oddities of last year is that Bledsoe ended up taking the blame for us missing the playoffs with our stupid loss at home to Pitts, but it really was a total team failure in addition to Bledsoe failing to pull a Joe Montana that was the cause of our demise, I was actually quite impressed with how TC and the gang coached Bledsoe to a far better (though still inadequate) performance in 2004 than in 2003. Thetrick is that if they avoid the power outages of the other parts of the team, it does not matter if JP goes through the learning period he is likely to go through.
BuckeyeBill Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 Give me an "R." Give me a "U." Give me a.... 321058[/snapback] HUH??
BuckeyeBill Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 Holcomb does not play unless JPL gets hurt, or the Bills are far ahead at the end of the game. (or far behind I guess too) No way does MM pull JPL... I can't fathom that happening, and I would be very disappointed if he did.
Campy Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 Holcomb does not play unless JPL gets hurt, or the Bills are far ahead at the end of the game. (or far behind I guess too) No way does MM pull JPL... I can't fathom that happening, and I would be very disappointed if he did. 321147[/snapback] If JPL is bombing and they think that Holcomb can get it done while the game is close, I think they would. MM seems willing to do whatever it takes to win each week. The question really becomes when exactly do they reach the point where they feel that Holcomb can get the job done and JP can't. That said, I think they'll be pretty patient with JP.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 Holcomb does not play unless JPL gets hurt, or the Bills are far ahead at the end of the game. (or far behind I guess too) No way does MM pull JPL... I can't fathom that happening, and I would be very disappointed if he did. 321147[/snapback] I can see him doing it if JP is a stumblebum who just sucks so bad (which I dod not expect to happen because I think JP is a talent). In fact, if JP were to be horrendous I certainly hope that MM does bench him as it would send a very bad message to the players that it doesn't matter how bad some "chosen ones" are they can play even if they do not perform. Its a difficult balance because showing confidence in a player is criticial to good development and for the good of the team. JP shouldn't have to play looking over his shoulder all the time because as soon as he makes the least little error he might get benched. However, the balance is struck by being forgiving of any bad play by JP in most cases but certainly not in all cases. Just as MM made a decision to throw JP in over his head in a very bad situation to mop up in the NE game last year, he should not fear to challenge JP by benching him if he thinks it is the right thing to do for the team and ultimately for JP.
BuckeyeBill Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 Does anyone remember that one game... I forget when. Well, it was 4th down, we needed to score on this drive to win, and Bledsoe threw the ball away out of bounds. That's a bonehead play that had me screaming! But they didn't pull him. You have to have faith in your QB or he won't have faith in himself. I think that is part of what happened to Tim Couch... he had no confidence, because when he would make a mistake, he would be pulled in favor of Holcomb. MM better not do to JP what Cleveland did to Tim Couch.
Realist Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 A lot of us are cautious about the upcoming season, many projecting we are likely to miss the playoffs again, mainly due to the fact we will have a rookie in all but name at QB with Losman. But many have also correctly pointed out that winning is the name of the game, that TD is close to the 'put up or get canned' threshold of his GM tenure, and that quite frankly Bills fans are sick and tired of not playing in the postseason. With all that said, the signing of Holcomb represents an interesting dynamic. As woeful as the Browns have been since their return, the few seasons they have been successful was in large part due to the inspired play of Holcomb. The braintrust at OBD surely knows this as well so the question is: Just how short a leash does JP have for the upcoming season? Will he play all season come hell or highwater to aid his 'development', or if he comes out of the gate pretty poorly will he get yanked to see if Holcomb can turn the bus around? I think as much as OBD talk up the season hinging on the development of JP, they won't hesitate to make a switch if the defense and special teams are holding up their end and they think Holcomb can create a spark. Thus writing off next season might be a tad premature. 321023[/snapback] I haven't read the other responses yet, but I would think because of how Holcomb played in Cleveland, with what he had, if the coaches think we are getting our behinds kicked because of JP, I don't they'd hesitate to put in Holcomb. If its a close game or the defense and ST aren't playing up to par either, my guess is they leave JP in there to battle back.
John from Riverside Posted April 27, 2005 Posted April 27, 2005 I personally dont think JPL is going to give them a chance to do that....he is going to come in and energize this team.....you watch.... But I like Holcomb there because lets face it....playing it safe just isn't JPL's style....and we know it.....it is part of the reason why he is so exciting.... Should he get knocked out of a game or lose time for any reason we wont lose much..... And for that matter....since we resigned our backup from LAST season.....we are STOCKED at QB
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