Addison & Butler: just how much do their contracts matter?

[NickelCity]

As we all watch the camp thread in anticipation of hearing about who's flashing and who's not, many of us are focused on the roster bubble and playing the "who do we keep/cut" game. For both DE and DT, roster cut downs are expected to be difficult. Below is the list of players who I think are in contention for roster spots for each position, which I expect is fairly unsurprising.

 

DE:

Hughes

Addison 

Epenesa 

Rousseau

Basham

Obada

Johnson 

 

DT:

Lotulelei

Oliver

Butler

Phillips

Zimmer

 

Assuming we keep 6 DEs and 4 DTs, one player will be cut from each list above. Now, throughout the summer I've heard that Addison and Butler are less likely (or extremely unlikely, depending on who you listen to) to be cut due to their restructured contracts. (1) Just how detrimental to the Bills would cutting these players be, in cap terms? (2) Would cutting one/both be considered controversial within the locker room considering that they were willing to restructure? (3) I'm generally curious just how much faith I should put into the "hard to cut them because of their contracts" observation. Would it be enough to keep them even if they were outperformed by another player? I'm not much of a cap guru, so any insight appreciated. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I think we keep 6 DEs and 3 DTs.

 

Toss up with Hughes/Addison. Two aging, expensive vets who’s best years may be in the rear view. Do we cut loose Bam Johnson, a key cog on the ‘teams?

 

Groot, Obada, AJ, and Boogie all have experience rushing from inside, so I see the DTs being Eddy, Star, and Harry. 
 

Zimmer on the Squad with Bam (if they stick with Hughes/Addison

[BringMetheHeadofLeonLett]

I think they'll keep the best team together, regardless of contract situation. 

[TBBills]

Contract doesn't matter, whoever's the best will make the 53.

[JohnNord]

4 minutes ago, TBBills said:

Contract doesn't matter, whoever's the best will make the 53.

I think that Special Teams could play a factor.  Farwell mentioned Johnson again and I think the only chance for him to stay on the active roster is if they move on from Taiwan Jones

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

According to Over The Cap, cutting Addison saves nothing. He counts about $8M either way.

It's a little over $2 million savings. I think they keep him unless the rookies just tear up preseason. 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It's a little over $2 million savings. I think they keep him unless the rookies just tear up preseason. 

Oh you're right I'm looking at pre-June 1

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, NickelCity said:

As we all watch the camp thread in anticipation of hearing about who's flashing and who's not, many of us are focused on the roster bubble and playing the "who do we keep/cut" game. For both DE and DT, roster cut downs are expected to be difficult. Below is the list of players who I think are in contention for roster spots for each position, which I expect is fairly unsurprising.

 

DE:

Hughes

Addison 

Epenesa 

Rousseau

Basham

Obada

Johnson 

 

DT:

Lotulelei

Oliver

Butler

Phillips

Zimmer

 

Assuming we keep 6 DEs and 4 DTs, one player will be cut from each list above. Now, throughout the summer I've heard that Addison and Butler are less likely (or extremely unlikely, depending on who you listen to) to be cut due to their restructured contracts. (1) Just how detrimental to the Bills would cutting these players be, in cap terms?

 

Not detrimental.  They didn't restructure, they took pay cuts.

 

This is the last year on Butler's contract.  He has a cap hit of $5.3M and a dead cap of $3.5M.  Cutting him saves $1.8M

 

Addison has a void year added on to defer $2M his signing bonus into next season.  He has $2M in guaranteed salary of his $4.075M salary.  So cutting him is a "wash".

 

Quote

 (2) Would cutting one/both be considered controversial within the locker room considering that they were willing to restructure?

 

No clue as far as locker room. 

 

Quote

(3) I'm generally curious just how much faith I should put into the "hard to cut them because of their contracts" observation. Would it be enough to keep them even if they were outperformed by another player? I'm not much of a cap guru, so any insight appreciated.

 

I don't think their contracts make them hard to cut per se.  What I can't tell you is what kind of "handshake" guarantees they were offered when they agreed to the pay cuts they took.

 

I don't think Beane/McDermott are going to "bet the season" that the rookies and Obada are ready to "step up"

 

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It's a little over $2 million savings. I think they keep him unless the rookies just tear up preseason. 

 

Which site are you looking at?

[JohnNord]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not detrimental.  They didn't restructure, they took pay cuts.

 

This is the last year on Butler's contract.  He has a cap hit of $5.3M and a dead cap of $3.5M.  Cutting him saves $1.8M

 

Addison has a void year added on to defer $2M his signing bonus into next season.  He has $2M in guaranteed salary of his $4.075M salary.  So cutting him is a "wash".

 

 

No clue as far as locker room. 

 

 

I don't think their contracts make them hard to cut per se.  What I can't tell you is what kind of "handshake" guarantees they were offered when they agreed to the pay cuts they took.

 

I don't think Beane/McDermott are going to "bet the season" that the rookies and Obada are ready to "step up"

Addison appears to be mentoring the defensive ends in Buffalo. He seems to be the type of leader/mentor they want in the locker room.

 

Plus I am thinking the team is betting on him having a larger impact as a situational player rather than an every down DE.  
 

Cutting Addison would not be consistent with the moves that Beane & McDermott have made over the past few years

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I think we keep 6 DEs and 3 DTs.

 

Toss up with Hughes/Addison. Two aging, expensive vets who’s best years may be in the rear view. Do we cut loose Bam Johnson, a key cog on the ‘teams?

 

Groot, Obada, AJ, and Boogie all have experience rushing from inside, so I see the DTs being Eddy, Star, and Harry. 
 

Zimmer on the Squad with Bam (if they stick with Hughes/Addison

 

What are you basing this notion on?

 

Unless things have changed big time, McDermott and Frazier are big believers in a DL rotation and I don't see them going away from that.

 

People seem to have this idea that a guy's ability to rush from inside on a passing down means he can play every down as a DT.  Not so.

 

 

[billsfan89]

I don't think Addison is "safe" at all. I think if Efe comes on strong in camp and Addison isn't showing up I don't necessarily know if they wouldn't cut Addison. Addison saves some cap space by being cut, not a whole lot but some. Butler I think is going to make the roster since it costs the team 600k above his cap number to cut him. 

[billybrew1]

2 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I think we keep 6 DEs and 3 DTs.

 

Toss up with Hughes/Addison. Two aging, expensive vets who’s best years may be in the rear view. Do we cut loose Bam Johnson, a key cog on the ‘teams?

 

Groot, Obada, AJ, and Boogie all have experience rushing from inside, so I see the DTs being Eddy, Star, and Harry. 
 

Zimmer on the Squad with Bam (if they stick with Hughes/Addison

When did Daryl Johnson get the name, Bam?

 

first I've seen it...

[Saxum]

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

I think that Special Teams could play a factor.  Farwell mentioned Johnson again and I think the only chance for him to stay on the active roster is if they move on from Taiwan Jones

 

They play different roles.  Johnson will not replace Jones as gunner so their fates are not intertwined.

55 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

I don't think Addison is "safe" at all. I think if Efe comes on strong in camp and Addison isn't showing up I don't necessarily know if they wouldn't cut Addison. Addison saves some cap space by being cut, not a whole lot but some. Butler I think is going to make the roster since it costs the team 600k above his cap number to cut him. 

 

Some of spare cap space created may be so Bills can cut some players with cap hits.

[BillsFanForever19]

I think the bigger thing with these two is that they both were approached by Beane and told that if they'd like to stay, they'd have to take a pay cut. Both agreed to it. Beane has never told a player that they can stay if they take a pay cut and released them. Not even Tyler Kroft who barely dressed last season.

 

For a regime that places a large emphasis on the team believing in the process and having high morale in the locker room - I believe that sticking to their word is important to this end. I think it would send a negative message for them to make players take pay cuts to stay and then say "thanks for doing that, but we're releasing you anyways and doing so after training camp where it will be difficult to find a gig and you'll be playing catch up all year".

 

Long story short, while it is possible for them to do it - it would be the first time.

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not detrimental.  They didn't restructure, they took pay cuts.

 

This is the last year on Butler's contract.  He has a cap hit of $5.3M and a dead cap of $3.5M.  Cutting him saves $1.8M

 

Addison has a void year added on to defer $2M his signing bonus into next season.  He has $2M in guaranteed salary of his $4.075M salary.  So cutting him is a "wash".

 

 

No clue as far as locker room. 

 

 

I don't think their contracts make them hard to cut per se.  What I can't tell you is what kind of "handshake" guarantees they were offered when they agreed to the pay cuts they took.

 

I don't think Beane/McDermott are going to "bet the season" that the rookies and Obada are ready to "step up"

 

 

Which site are you looking at?

 

They took paycuts in return for guaranteed contracts

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

They took paycuts in return for guaranteed contracts

 

I agree.  Butler stands to make more money getting cut at the end of camp then he would of made getting cut at the start of the year.

I see no "guaranteed to make the team" in that.  IMO.

[NickelCity]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

Butler I think is going to make the roster since it costs the team 600k above his cap number to cut him. 

 

An example of how one of the contracts influences the perception of likelihood of making the team. Now, I tend to think that 600k is so minor as to not matter, but perhaps you're right.

 

9 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

I think the bigger thing with these two is that they both were approached by Beane and told that if they'd like to stay, they'd have to take a pay cut. Both agreed to it. Beane has never told a player that they can stay if they take a pay cut and released them. Not even Tyler Kroft who barely dressed last season.

 

For a regime that places a large emphasis on the team believing in the process and having high morale in the locker room - I believe that sticking to their word is important to this end. I think it would send a negative message for them to make players take pay cuts to stay and then say "thanks for doing that, but we're releasing you anyways and doing so after training camp where it will be difficult to find a gig and you'll be playing catch up all year".

 

Long story short, while it is possible for them to do it - it would be the first time.

 

Thanks for the background here. I thought there might be something to the lockerroom/buy-in/process aspect, but I hadn't combed through previous examples.

 

--

 

My own prediction for DT: Zimmer makes the roster and Butler is cut.

 

DE: honest to god I don't know. But I'm a believer in Obada and I think Johnson is a core STer, which makes it more difficult. I'd hate to lose Obada in favor of Addison but I'll admit to being biased toward the "potential".

[billybrew1]

The DL cuts will be very interesting come September.  Of course, all the cuts will be but DL the most I think. What do we do about Fromm? Some have Brenda as a lock but I don't. Jaquan Johnson has a case of the toos.... Too short, too light, too slow, yet he is a defensive genius with super quick play recognition, is that enough to take Marlowe's job? I think it is but he is no lock. Wildgoose? What did McD see in him? Why haven't we signed a vet to replace Norman as we always brought a vet in under McD? I think it will be weird if he makes the 53.... It sure would help things if the Bills could get by with five LBs but who does that? LBs are generally core players on teams. Are our athletic DEs athletic enough to play STs well? I can't see carrying ten DL but I also can't see waiving any of those ten so something has to give. No, I don't buy into the three DT theory. Most teams we play will try to control the clock by running the ball and I don't like any of our DTs as a great run stopper, we definitely need four. Hard to imagine the Bills as a team you don't want to get in a scoring race with but I count two teams on our schedule that would be OK with that; KC and Tampa. The rest are going to try to run it a lot. NE in particular but far from the only one. When we need our run game to shine is when we take big leads. Keep our QBs (yes, both) healthy and not dropping back too often. We need a better run game to ice games. We're still going to have to pass, but we need to run it at least 50% once we're up, imho...I can envision Tribusky coming in much than Barkley or most back up QBs. Trust in Tribusky I say. Get JA off the field. We have him, play him. Get up by 21? send in Tribusky.  Imho, we promised not to trade him, but man, if we could get a second or even more, like a second and a fifth, that would make us players in next year's draft. Either way the Bills are huge winners for signing him. We could play him vs. Atlanta.... or just let Josh play a quarter....We could play him differently than any back up in a long time. Maybe since Daryl Lamoniica!  Cool....

im not suggesting to "try" another QB just to play him when we take a substantial lead. That's gonna happen a lot, yes? I wanted JA out of the game quite a bit last season but Barkley couldn't be trusted.....Play him when we can or trade him I say!

 

 

[YattaOkasan]

I’m surprised no one said trade. For Addison you get 6 mil this year with another 2 mil dead cap this year and for butler you get 4 mil. If we keep everyone healthy I am taking anything I can get for these two. 
 

https://overthecap.com/player/mario-addison/1185/
 

https://overthecap.com/player/vernon-butler/4742/

2 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

I think the bigger thing with these two is that they both were approached by Beane and told that if they'd like to stay, they'd have to take a pay cut. Both agreed to it. Beane has never told a player that they can stay if they take a pay cut and released them. Not even Tyler Kroft who barely dressed last season.

 

For a regime that places a large emphasis on the team believing in the process and having high morale in the locker room - I believe that sticking to their word is important to this end. I think it would send a negative message for them to make players take pay cuts to stay and then say "thanks for doing that, but we're releasing you anyways and doing so after training camp where it will be difficult to find a gig and you'll be playing catch up all year".

 

Long story short, while it is possible for them to do it - it would be the first time.

Dimarco?  He was a bit dinged up but not sure if it counts. Also he was on the leadership council. 
 

confirmed 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/billswire.usatoday.com/2020/03/23/buffalo-bills-restructure-patrick-dimarco-contract/amp/

Edited August 6, 2021 by YattaOkasan

[BillsFanForever19]

16 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Dimarco?  He was a bit dinged up but not sure if it counts. Also he was on the leadership council. 

 

confirmed 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/billswire.usatoday.com/2020/03/23/buffalo-bills-restructure-patrick-dimarco-contract/amp/

 

He was placed on Injured Reserve. Was only released on a mutually agreed upon settlement deal and he later retired. That's not the same thing. I'd even argue this further proves my point because they were willing to keep him on the payroll even though he was shot and only released him after they paid him. And it was only because the guy was toast. Which is not the case with Addison and Butler.

Edited August 6, 2021 by BillsFanForever19