Training Camp practice and Media Sessions 8/5

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

I respectfully disagree that interior depth is/was needed more than tackle depth.

On the interior, we have

Feliciano
Ford
Boettger
Lamp
Bates
Devey

None of those guys are world beaters, but several of them have starting experience, and several of them still have the capacity to improve. Besides, it's not as if the Bills' offensive line was a tire fire last season. To the degree that they struggled, I would point at least partially to Feliciano and Ford -- the presumed starters -- both missing significant time due to injury.

On the other hand, after Dion Dawkins and Daryl Williams, the Bills had just Bobby Hart at tackle. That is SCARY. I have read the opinions of Bengals fans and seen some of the lowlights myself, and if the Bills ever have to depend on Hart for significant snaps, well....not good. 

Time will tell if Brown or Doyle are actually upgrades, but I view the addition of both guys as very necessary, and chalk it up to some prudent present and future planning by Beane.

As for Trey Smith, well....Zero has been calling him "the steal of the draft" since before pads even came on, so...yeah.

 

 

Jamil Douglas at G.    I'm gonna start a Jamil Douglas fan club because everyone be forgetting him.  He saw significant snaps at G for the Titans in 3 games last season.

 

Also Ryan Bates at tackle.

 

People forget that Ryan Bates has played tackle in several games.   Read that again:  People forget that Ryan Bates has filled in at tackle in several games.

The reason it's worth noting, is forgetting in this instance is a Good Thing.  It means he came in, Did His Job, and nothing particularly disastrous happened.

 

I looked it up: 2019 Titans game, took about 1/3 of the RT snaps after Cody Ford went out.   Jets finale, played most of the game at LT.  2020, Titans game, played about 10% of the snaps at LT for Dawkins (I should say "nothing MORE disastrous happened" since that game was a CF to start with).   2nd NE game, played 11% of the snaps for Dawkins - at one point the announcers were commenting on how the Bills were moving the ball behind their revamped OL and then clued "actually, they have backups in at both tackle positions....".  Miami finale, played half the game for Dawkins. 

 

I think it's important to remember that we do have a vet backup on the team who has "gotten it done" in cameo appearances at tackle.  He's not an ideal tackle because "short wingspan", but I would actually feel better about Bates at LT than Bobby Hart at LT.

 

Beane also made the point that Ford can play tackle if they need him to (obviously, he lost the RT job for a reason, and the Chiefs are a case-study in why it's not a great thing to make multiple OL substitutions, but...).  Or, maybe Beane is just trying to reassure himself after watching Hart play on Saturday....

 

OK to your point about needing tackle depth more than interior depth:

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think we drafted Brown and Doyle as tackle depth per se.  I think we signed Daryl Williams to a 1 year, top-5 RT salary that looks like a 3 year, top-10 RT salary, and we're hoping that one of the two pans out at RT and can take over next year, freeing up $5M in cap.  Bonus if one of them can play well enough to be considered depth this season.

 

BUT our starting LT and RT are both pretty durn solid.

 

What's shaky, IMHO, is our interior line STARTING quality.  It just wasn't good enough last season, especially in the run game and the AFC championship.  And, Mitch Morse seems to be one helmet whack away from retirement, or at least missing significant time.  I would have liked to see us draft the best C/G we could get our hands on, put him in at G this season and let him learn the speed and power of the pro game - then move him over to center next year.

 

What Beane did instead was take the Maybe Approach: throw bodies at the problem, and maybe something will work out. 

-MAYBE Ford will be healthy and stay healthy and become a solid guard. 

-MAYBE Feliciano will play better now that he's not returning from off-season surgery and a torn pec. 

-MAYBE Boettger will take a step. 

-MAYBE Lamp or Douglas will be an upgrade if the above can't get 'er done in the run game.

 

 

 

[Mat68]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Maybe I'm wrong.   Wouldn't be the first time ... in the past five minutes. 

I hear ya with that lol.  Either way with Hamlin drafted Johnson is on the hot seat.

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

You kind of contradict yourself…  it was not just the WRs, it was the O line , the TEs, the RBs etc etc, that was an ugly team offense, if there ever was one,

Exactly.....that 2018 team was brutal to watch. I agree with you about it wasn't just the WR's, however while the OL was bad and other positions also etc, I honestly have to say imo the OL was not nearly as bad as the WR's. I mean although the OL struggled, there were many plays that could/should have been made.

 

So, so many dropped passes and just overall poor play by that WR group. I swear it was so bad it got to the point I was always expecting a dropped pass every time Josh dropped back. Was really a tough season to watch. Honestly think that was the worst group of WR's Bills have ever had that I can remember.

19 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Very interesting indeed.  I think we can all agree that Davis roster spot likely isn’t in any jeopardy barring some extreme regression in preseason.  But the Kumerow buzz seems very legit and like he’s gonna be hard to keep off the field.

Agree. Don't know the number of snaps each of them get but I'm think Kumerow will get more chances than before for sure. Either way, best man should be out there anyway whoever it will be.

 

 

[Mat68]

6 minutes ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Exactly.....that 2018 team was brutal to watch. I agree with you about it wasn't just the WR's, however while the OL was bad and other positions also etc, I honestly have to say imo the OL was not nearly as bad as the WR's. I mean although the OL struggled, there were many plays that could/should have been made.

 

So, so many dropped passes and just overall poor play by that WR group. I swear it was so bad it got to the point I was always expecting a dropped pass every time Josh dropped back. Was really a tough season to watch. Honestly think that was the worst group of WR's Bills have ever had that I can remember.

I watched the Leaping Allen game vs the Vikings.  Running backs Chris Ivory and Matt Murphy.  Wrs Benjamin weighing 268, Andrea Holmes and Zay Jones.  Thats when I knew we had a guy.  First road start with one of the largest spreads in 10 years.

1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said:

My prediction was/is that Addison gets cut. At any rate, I don't accept the Obada vs. Johnson concept. 

If that big dude makes a tackle on Punt coverage or Kickoff coverage it will be that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said:

My prediction was/is that Addison gets cut. At any rate, I don't accept the Obada vs. Johnson concept. 

 

I don't know if Addison gets cut. 

 

A point is that the Bills pay exactly the same cap if they keep him or cut him; $2M of his salary was guaranteed when he took his cut, and a voidable year created with $2M of amortized signing bonus that would accelerate into this season to cancel the $2.075M we'd save in salary.

 

I'm not sure what "I don't accept the Obada vs Johnson concept" means?

 

 

[Logic]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What Beane did instead was take the Maybe Approach: throw bodies at the problem, and maybe something will work out. 

-MAYBE Ford will be healthy and stay healthy and become a solid guard. 

-MAYBE Feliciano will play better now that he's not returning from off-season surgery and a torn pec. 

-MAYBE Boettger will take a step. 

-MAYBE Lamp or Douglas will be an upgrade if the above can't get 'er done in the run game.

 

Good post. 

In fairness, drafting players is always a "maybe" proposition, too.

MAYBE the mid-round guard we draft will outplay Ford and Feliciano this year or next year.

Granted, for a team in the cap position the Bills were in this offseason (due to the COVID-shrunken cap), drafting a youngster probably represents the best and most feasible means of attempting to upgrade the position for the long term, if not the short term.

I liked several interior linemen in this draft and was rather surprised the Bills didn't take one of them (other than Jack Anderson in the 6th). As I thought about it more, though, I realized that, for whatever reason, Beane doesn't seem to spend much draft capital on interior linemen. He'll spend it on offensive tackles, offensive and defensive playmakers...but interior o-linemen? It seems to me like he's always "thrown bodies at the problem", as you put it. While that didn't work too well last season (injuries notwithstanding), it seemed to me like the 2019 interior o-line mostly got the job done. 

Here's hoping that between Ford, Boettger, Lamp. and -- as you pointed out -- Douglas, somebody can step up. Cody Ford suddenly living up to his draft pedigree, in particular, could transform this o-line.
 

[Patrick Duffy]

2 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

I watched the Leaping Allen game vs the Vikings.  Running backs Chris Ivory and Matt Murphy.  Wrs Benjamin weighing 268, Andrea Holmes and Zay Jones.  Thats when I knew we had a guy.  First road start with one of the largest spreads in 10 years

Yeah the way Allen played that game definitely made that game hard to forget. While the hurdle also made me feel good and hopeful Bills finally got the QB they have needed for so long, I was impressed by him in that preseason his rookie year. Although you have to take preseason with a grain of salt and whatnot, he still looked good and kinda gave everyone a glimpse of that impressive arm

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said:

IIRC, he was decent against the run, but he played a low percentage of defensive snaps, 15%, or so, I believe. Definitely saw him make plays on teams, though.

 

Are you talking about "Bam" Johnson?

22% of the defensive snaps ...I just calculated it 😁 since I don't know of a source that gives average snaps a player has (if anyone does, spare my poor calculator buttons and tell me)

 

The interesting thing is that Bam had been trending UP the last 3 games of the season with 40% of the snaps...but saw his snaps cut back to 20% vs. the Colts and Chiefs...and was inactive for the Ravens game.

 

I think that tells you the exact opposite...they were starting to trust Johnson against the pass, but did NOT trust him against the run at all.  Benched for Murphy vs. the Ravens.

 

Normalized to 100% of snaps, Obada (who played 40% of the snaps) would have had 37.5 QB hits and 13.75 sacks, Johnson 13 QB hits and 4.5 sacks.

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Bam Johnson is a core SP-Teamer…

 

Boogie and Groot have flashed big time…

 

The Autocorrect Bros (Obada and Espensa (sp?)) have been consistently impressive…

 

Is the true battle for the 6th DE spot between Addison and Hughes?

[HappyDays]

 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

Good post. 

In fairness, drafting players is always a "maybe" proposition, too.

MAYBE the mid-round guard we draft will outplay Ford and Feliciano this year or next year.

Granted, for a team in the cap position the Bills were in this offseason (due to the COVID-shrunken cap), drafting a youngster probably represents the best and most feasible means of attempting to upgrade the position for the long term, if not the short term.

I liked several interior linemen in this draft and was rather surprised the Bills didn't take one of them (other than Jack Anderson in the 6th). As I thought about it more, though, I realized that, for whatever reason, Beane doesn't seem to spend much draft capital on interior linemen. He'll spend it on offensive tackles, offensive and defensive playmakers...but interior o-linemen? It seems to me like he's always "thrown bodies at the problem", as you put it. While that didn't work too well last season (injuries notwithstanding), it seemed to me like the 2019 interior o-line mostly got the job done. 

Here's hoping that between Ford, Boettger, Lamp. and -- as you pointed out -- Douglas, somebody can step up. Cody Ford suddenly living up to his draft pedigree, in particular, could transform this o-line.
 

This is a good discussion of Beane's philosophy.   I think it's based on the fact that it's rare that you get an offensive guard who is a difference maker.   If you have a good center and two good tackles, you just need solid play from the guards.  The best talent at guard may be Ford, and he was drafted as though he was going to be a different maker, but at tackle.  

 

Also, it's more than throwing bodies at the problem.   The coaches and GM always tell us that offensive line play is more about teamwork than any other position group on the team.   In other words, it's not a skill position group.   It's guys who can execute well together.   When I watch replays and focus on the offensive line, I'm always surprised at how many plays are about just getting to the right place and pushing.   I know there is plenty of technique to be learned and all, but by and large it's executing together, making the right handoffs, handling double team blocks properly, etc.  So what you need, and what seems to drive Beane's management of line talent, is decent sized good athletes with the right work ethic.   

 

Despite how the offensive line played last season, I think McDermott's evaluation was that he had the talent he needed to develop a solid, effective offensive line.   That message was clear when they signed Feliciano and Williams - status quo, improving, was good enough for them.  The fact that they drafted three offensive linemen means that they would like a physical upgrade, a talent upgrade, but it's likely that if any or all of them are going to contribute significantly, it won't be for a year or two.  

[Rocky Landing]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't know if Addison gets cut. 

 

A point is that the Bills pay exactly the same cap if they keep him or cut him; $2M of his salary was guaranteed when he took his cut, and a voidable year created with $2M of amortized signing bonus that would accelerate into this season to cancel the $2.075M we'd save in salary.

 

I'm not sure what "I don't accept the Obada vs Johnson concept" means?

 

 

What I mean by this is that there seems to be a perception that Beane/McD will find themselves having to choose between the two, as in they would keep one, but not both. I don't think that is the case at all.

[Big Blitz]

3 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

I'm not ready to give up on Knox.  Bad play are standing out because the team rarely makes them now.  He will be fine

 

 

I think there is some truth to this.  

 

Everyone watching Knox is watching one thing and that's the drops.  When they happen it's immediately noted. 

 

Not making an excuse, just think we need to see what else he's doing (blocking, better routes, degree of difficulty on catches he is making).

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

I think there is some truth to this.  

 

Everyone watching Knox is watching one thing and that's the drops.  When they happen it's immediately noted. 

 

Not making an excuse, just think we need to see what else he's doing (blocking, better routes, degree of difficulty on catches he is making).

Sal said on radio  it was the only drop hes had in camp which was why it was noteworthy. I’m not sure about that, it seems like he had one very early in camp. Either way, it doesn’t seem like a theme.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, Logic said:

I liked several interior linemen in this draft and was rather surprised the Bills didn't take one of them (other than Jack Anderson in the 6th). As I thought about it more, though, I realized that, for whatever reason, Beane doesn't seem to spend much draft capital on interior linemen. He'll spend it on offensive tackles, offensive and defensive playmakers...but interior o-linemen? It seems to me like he's always "thrown bodies at the problem", as you put it. While that didn't work too well last season (injuries notwithstanding), it seemed to me like the 2019 interior o-line mostly got the job done. 

 

So here's what I see: we were able to run at times against some teams - NE; the Chargers; Denver; the Jets; Pittsburgh to close out the game.

 

Sometimes we simply didn't try to run, as against the Seasnakes and the 49ers.

 

But against the teams with the top DLs?  Titans, the Ravens, the Chiefs -Nopenope, could not get 'er done, didn't happen.   It's been beaten to death why that is - some on the backs, some on the scheme, a lot on the blocking but not just OL (TEs for example), but it's notable that some of the games where we couldn't run, were also the games where Allen was struggling to find time to pass and to let plays develop downfield.  As a player from another team tweeted during the AFCCG "they aren't even trying to block for 17" -  I don't believe that, but the fact is the interior was getting pwn'd.

 

IMO, to fix that, we need a significant upgrade at the interior.  "Mostly got the job done" won't win you a championship, won't win you the hard games against top DL.

 

Now, Beane is very thoughtful and thorough in how he approaches the roster.  He might have decided that the guys we have, healthy, should be able to get 'er done, and then what we need is improved depth in case of injuries.  But I hope he isn't reluctant to spend draft capitol on IOL.

 

7 minutes ago, Logic said:

Here's hoping that between Ford, Boettger, Lamp. and -- as you pointed out -- Douglas, somebody can step up. Cody Ford suddenly living up to his draft pedigree, in particular, could transform this o-line.

 

Agreed

[Andrew Son]

9 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Bam Johnson is a core SP-Teamer…

 

Boogie and Groot have flashed big time…

 

The Autocorrect Bros (Obada and Espensa (sp?)) have been consistently impressive…

 

Is the true battle for the 6th DE spot between Addison and Hughes?

Incredibly tough roster decisions this year.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

What I mean by this is that there seems to be a perception that Beane/McD will find themselves having to choose between the two, as in they would keep one, but not both. I don't think that is the case at all.

 

Well.....with as many DE as we have on the roster right now, someone's gotta go

 

5 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Sal said on radio  it was the only drop hes had in camp which was why it was noteworthy. I’m not sure about that, it seems like he had one very early in camp. Either way, it doesn’t seem like a theme.

 

Yeah, I have the same memory, someone commenting that Knox had dropped a ball he should have had.  I also thought he should have come back for the ball that Milano is credited for causing an INT on, based on the clip that's out there.

[Andrew Son]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well.....with as many DE as we have on the roster right now, someone's gotta go

The interesting thing is that many of our DE's can slid inside, so maybe we go light at DT?  

[Rocky Landing]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Are you talking about "Bam" Johnson?

22% of the defensive snaps ...I just calculated it 😁 since I don't know of a source that gives average snaps a player has (if anyone does, spare my poor calculator buttons and tell me)

 

The interesting thing is that Bam had been trending UP the last 3 games of the season with 40% of the snaps...but saw his snaps cut back to 20% vs. the Colts and Chiefs...and was inactive for the Ravens game.

 

I think that tells you the exact opposite...they were starting to trust Johnson against the pass, but did NOT trust him against the run at all.  Benched for Murphy vs. the Ravens.

 

Normalized to 100% of snaps, Obada (who played 40% of the snaps) would have had 37.5 QB hits and 13.75 sacks, Johnson 13 QB hits and 4.5 sacks.

 

 

There is actually a site that had the percentage of snaps, and that is where I saw it. It may very well have been 22%, as I forgot to bookmark the site, and I don't remember what it was called.

 

And I'm not sure those snap percentages tell "the exact opposite," in that such a stat certainly wouldn't tell the whole story. Be that as it may, I was only citing my own perception regarding his strength in the running game, and it may just be a biased position. It just makes sense to me that someone who consistently made plays on ST would be suited to stop the run. And I do remember him having a spectacular tackle for loss in the 49ers game.

[HappyDays]

The Athletic recap on today's camp was just posted.

 

Quote

Sanders is out, but Kumerow and Davis step up
Sanders’ absence from practice provided more snaps and opportunities for a pair of early camp standouts, Gabriel Davis and Jake Kumerow. Neither disappointed. Davis was a constant target of Josh Allen’s during team drills on Thursday, roping in four total receptions. Davis did miss one target in the end zone, as Allen feathered a throw over cornerback Levi Wallace and hit Davis in the hands before it dropped to the ground. It looked like Wallace may have mistimed the jump, and it caught Davis slightly off-guard. However, Davis came right back with two impressive catches where he snuck behind his defender for a substantial gain. His role may not change a ton this year without any injuries, but he’s showing good development in his route running setup, and that could mean a lot to the Bills in 2022 if he can step into a locked-in starting role.

Although Kumerow didn’t get any targets from Allen in this practice, he maximized his chances with backup quarterback Mitchell Trubisky. Trubisky found Kumerow for a deep pass down the right sideline in what looked to be a complete bust in coverage. Had the referees not blown the play dead, Kumerow likely would have scampered into the end zone. Later in practice, Kumerow brought in an impressive reception from Trubisky, with a defender all over him for about a 25-yard gain. It was a great throw by Trubisky in a tight window, as the quarterback had one of his best days of camp yet. Kumerow hasn’t just been just a two or three-day performer for the Bills’ offense, he has been a sustainable asset and a player the Bills are working in on all four phases of special teams. Kumerow, based on his usage and performance, is most certainly ahead of Isaiah Hodgins and Marquez Stevenson at the moment.

 

Based on the above, I may have to revise my prediction that Kumerow will take snaps away from Davis. I hadn't seen anyone else mention that in team drills Kumerow wasn't on the 1st team offense. I'm glad to hear Davis took advantage of Sanders's absence. Having 2 legitimate #2 outside WRs would be great.

 

Quote

Obada was constantly in the backfield
We’ve written about Efe Obada at least a couple of times this summer, but he hasn’t had a showing more impressive than the one he put forward on Thursday. Early in camp, defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier said how eager Obada was to finally get full pads on so that he could use the full range of his length and physicality, and Obada showed precisely why. During one-on-ones, Obada could not be stopped. On his first rep, he chopped away Ike Boettger’s hands, dipped his shoulder and was in the backfield without any delay. He faked a wide rush against Bobby Hart and then attacked the interior and Hart’s left shoulder for another easy pressure and win on Obada’s next attempt. Just a few moments later, Obada worked against rookie Spencer Brown and Obada hesitated ever so slightly to freeze Brown in place. Brown knew Obada had him where he wanted, so the rookie lunged forward and Obada avoided the contact to get into the backfield once more. It didn’t stop there, either. During a nine-on-nine drill, Obada beat Jamil Douglas for one pressure on one play, and then combined with defensive tackle Justin Zimmer for another. Once the Bills went to full 11-on-11 — team drills — Obada again worked into the backfield and got a piece of Allen’s pass which forced the quarterback’s first incompletion of the day. Obada is versatile, strong and explosive, and has been a clear winner through the first week of training camp.

 

Quote

Johnson shows up with a pair of flashy reps, too
In addition to Obada, Darryl Johnson also put together a good practice from the defensive end position. Johnson took advantage of Caleb Benenoch’s rust by catching Benenoch’s head down and bringing his arms up and over for an easy win. Johnson caught Daryl Williams off-balance on a later rep with an initial rush out wide and then cut back inside for another easy win. Later on, in team drills, Johnson beat Bobby Hart for a would-be sack, making it one of Johnson’s best days yet.

 

Quote

Has Basham faded a bit since his big play last week?
Second-round pick Boogie Basham was off to a fast start. After putting together a star-like performance in the spring workouts, Basham had an excellent  tipped-to-himself interception early in camp. But as camp has gone on, Basham hasn’t consistently shown those flash plays like some of his young teammates and has instead faded into the background. To this point, the team’s first-round pick, Gregory Rousseau, has outplayed Basham, as has second-year defensive end A.J. Epenesa. Rousseau has settled into working against last year’s starting right tackle Daryl Williams every practice and for the majority of the session and has provided some sparks along the way. Basham is certainly a different blend of skills than his young pass-rushing teammates, but he hasn’t gotten nearly the same opportunities as Rousseau or Epenesa seven days into camp. Basham was at his best in college when he’s working to the inside or on stunts with his teammates, so perhaps we’ll see some more flashy plays as Basham gets more comfortable with the physicality of NFL padded practices. Either way, we’ve reached somewhat of a lull for Basham’s first camp.

 

Quote

Ryan Bates quietly having another strong training camp

Interior lineman Bates easily controlled both of his one-on-one attempts today. His first came against Star Lotulelei, who tried to bull rush his way into the backfield. After Bates sustained the initial push forward, he anchored into his position and kept the pocket clean. On his next attempt against defensive tackle Brandin Bryant, Bates handled the initial bull rush and controlled Bryant the entire way to a clear win. Bates is already looking like a strong bet to make the roster as a depth lineman. He’s versatile enough to play any of the three interior positions, and you have to wonder if he’d be one of the first in line to get an opportunity should any of the initial starting five struggle in 2021.

 

Quote

Spencer Brown still working through inconsistency
It’s been an up-and-down training camp for the rookie Brown, who clearly has some talent to work with but lacks the refinement the Bills need to trust him to be a starting player right away. We already mentioned Brown’s unfortunate bad beat to Obada. However, Brown also started off the day strong working against Mario Addison. Addison tried to take a wide-angle and then used a spin move to work back to the quarterback, but Brown’s quick feet kept him in position and he didn’t take the bait of taking too many steps during his kick-slide. Brown caught Addison and controlled him the rest of the rep for the win. On their next battle, Addison gave Brown a slight hesitation move and then used power to move Brown into the backfield for the win. It’s just been an ever-evolving learning process for Brown in his first camp, but I don’t think the Bills expect the rookie to step into a starting job right away in his first season.