Training Camp practice 7/29

[YattaOkasan]

8 hours ago, NewEra said:

the DLine was a bigger problem.  I agree.  That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look to upgrade the next biggest problem.  He’s slow and weak.  I don’t feel he’s an adequate cb2 for a team with serious super bowl aspirations.  Strictly zone corners are a liability in man.  We like to play man on 3rd down.  Do the math

For a slow/weak guy he has a really good tackle rate (best on the defense by a lot).  His man coverage numbers were better than Tre's.  Theres a lot of mitigating factors in man coverage numbers though (like tre gets the #1), but hes not as bad as you think.  Listen to the Joe Marino podcast on him.  He lays it all out.  

 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by YattaOkasan

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

I think between Wallace, Jackson, Wildgoose, Hamlin and Griffin, Buffalo will see a player or two step up in our secondary. We must keep in mind that DB is McD’s specialty. Why spend a first on one when McD can get production out of guys drafted later in the draft?

Step up and start opposite Tre in the super bowl and win.  That’s all that matters.  
 

How much production did we get out of that position last season?  We need guys that can play zone AND man……not just zone.  We need to switch things up and reinvent our defense.  McD said that about the offense…..it should be the same on D.  We can’t just stay the same and expect the same results a year later 

[YattaOkasan]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Step up and start opposite Tre in the super bowl and win.  That’s all that matters.  
 

How much production did we get out of that position last season?  We need guys that can play zone AND man……not just zone.  We need to switch things up and reinvent our defense.  McD said that about the offense…..it should be the same on D.  We can’t just stay the same and expect the same results a year later 

strongly recommend you listen to that pod.  McD has had elite defense here with Wallace.  I think LB injuries had more to do with last year than CB2 performance.  Hell nickel corner was more of a problem to me than CB3 (though taron did start playing alot better with the rest of the defense in the 2nd half of the season).

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Wallace didn't cost us in the playoffs. He was at the bottom of the list of reasons we lost to the Chiefs. McDermott doesn't need his CB2 to do a lot, it is never a position he is going to invest a lot in. There wasn't really anyone available to sign anyways. This board got really into the idea of Steven Nelson for some reason but he is just a marginal starter which is why he signed a modest deal.

What does this mean?  He wasn’t within one yard of a receiver catching a pass one time in the AFCCG.  Off man. Off man. Off man.  Everyone knows what he does.  That’s the only thing he can do vs guys who are much better athletes than he is.  Keep the play in front of him.  He cost us plenty in the game that we lost.   He wasn’t the main reason we lost…..but his ability as a cover corner certainly cost us.  Rewatch the game.  Watch his play.

[HappyDays]

4 minutes ago, NewEra said:

What does this mean?  He wasn’t within one yard of a receiver catching a pass one time in the AFCCG.  Off man. Off man. Off man.  Everyone knows what he does.  That’s the only thing he can do vs guys who are much better athletes than he is.  Keep the play in front of him.  He cost us plenty in the game that we lost.   He wasn’t the main reason we lost…..but his ability as a cover corner certainly cost us.  Rewatch the game.  Watch his play.

 

I'll be honest I don't have the stomach to rewatch that game, ever. My memory of it is that pretty much everyone played their worst game of the year. Allen was pressing throws downfield that weren't there. The receivers weren't getting open. The o-line was a turnstile. We got nothing from our RBs. On defense we had zero pass rush. Edmunds was made to look like a fool. The scheme on both sides of the ball was all wrong. I can't remember a single play where I was frustrated with Levi Wallace. I'm sure he didn't play particularly well, since nobody else did, but he was not a primary or even secondary reason that we lost the game.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, YattaOkasan said:

For a slow/weak guy he has a really good tackle rate (best on the defense by a lot).  His man coverage numbers were better than Tre's.  Theres a lot of mitigating factors in man coverage numbers though (like tre gets the #1), but hes not as bad as you think.  Listen to the Joe Marino podcast on him.  He lays it all out.  

 

 

I listened to that pod awhile back.  Why compare tre covering #1 WRs to Levi covering #2-3 WRs?  I don’t see how they are the same thing.

 

he IS slow and weak.  Not sure what to tell you.  Tackles % is important.  I didn’t say he was a bad tackler.  He was pretty good in run support last season (much better than in coverage (74 pff rating vs 56 in coverage). I’m not worried about cb2 in run game nearly as much as in the pass game.  DBs need strength to help them cover WRs.   Hopefully he added some strength this offseason

 

 

[YattaOkasan]

Just now, NewEra said:

I listened to that pod awhile back.  Why compare tre covering #1 WRs to Levi covering #2-3 WRs?  I don’t see how they are the same thing.

 

he IS slow and weak.  Not sure what to tell you.  Tackles % is important.  I didn’t say he was a bad tackler.  He was pretty good in run support last season (much better than in coverage (74 pff rating vs 56 in coverage). I’m not worried about cb2 in run game nearly as much as in the pass game.  DBs need strength to help them cover WRs.   Hopefully he added some strength this offseason

 

 

The point on man is he is not a liability.  You are arguing he is a liability in man right?  

 

on the slow and weak i did make a bit of a jump that would cause poor tackling.  his length def helps him in tackling.  

 

I guess the question is what priority is this?  you have said you think DL is higher priority.  what about nickel corner?  with limited resources you have to prioritize.  I put this upgrading levi down the list.  do i want an upgrade (yes would like an upgrade everywhere), but how much does it cost relative to what we get.  

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'll be honest I don't have the stomach to rewatch that game, ever. My memory of it is that pretty much everyone played their worst game of the year. Allen was pressing throws downfield that weren't there. The receivers weren't getting open. The o-line was a turnstile. We got nothing from our RBs. On defense we had zero pass rush. Edmunds was made to look like a fool. The scheme on both sides of the ball was all wrong. I can't remember a single play where I was frustrated with Levi Wallace. I'm sure he didn't play particularly well, since nobody else did, but he was not a primary or even secondary reason that we lost the game.

The KC WRs we’re running wide open all game.  Literally wide open.  Lots of that had to do with god awful defensive play calling. Imo, our coaching staff was THE biggest issue that game and the biggest contributor to taking the L.  I also feel that we shade more help towards Levi to protect him.  That’s why “cb2 isn’t as valuable” in mcDs defense.  Well…..i think it’s time that we see what this defense would look like with a better cb2.  It’s a premium position. We have 5 WRs that are better at their position than Levi is at his.  There’s no reason we shouldn’t invest more in cb2.  We’re competing against KC.  
 

agree to disagree my man. 

[YattaOkasan]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

The KC WRs we’re running wide open all game.  Literally wide open.  Lots of that had to do with god awful defensive play calling. Imo, our coaching staff was THE biggest issue that game and the biggest contributor to taking the L.  I also feel that we shade more help towards Levi to protect him.  That’s why “cb2 isn’t as valuable” in mcDs defense.  Well…..i think it’s time that we see what this defense would look like with a better cb2.  It’s a premium position. We have 5 WRs that are better at their position than Levi is at his.  There’s no reason we shouldn’t invest more in cb2.  We’re competing against KC.  
 

agree to disagree my man. 

Thanks for explaining.  I see and agree with many of your points.

 

I think coaching was also the biggest issue in that game.  I will rewatch the game with focus on Levi, but I do remember LB and Nickel having a few rough plays.  I also can appreciate the point about shading help (usually Hyde) to him more (Joe M mentioned as well). 

 

I just land in a different place relative to priorities, but I do understand your logic.  At this point itll just play out.  Thanks again for talking through it.

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

The point on man is he is not a liability.  You are arguing he is a liability in man right?  

 

on the slow and weak i did make a bit of a jump that would cause poor tackling.  his length def helps him in tackling.  

 

I guess the question is what priority is this?  you have said you think DL is higher priority.  what about nickel corner?  with limited resources you have to prioritize.  I put this upgrading levi down the list.  do i want an upgrade (yes would like an upgrade everywhere), but how much does it cost relative to what we get.  

Man is a big part of it.  He’s not good in man and Frazier dialed up lots of man coverages on 3rd down. 3rd downs rule the league.  I don’t want him out there on 3rd downs playing man.  I’d prefer someone better.  We signed him for 1.75M a year.  That’s backup $.  I would prioritize the guy covering one side of the field over paying Tyler Matakavich 3.5M per year…. Double Levi.  Or paying our DT4  4 times more than our CB2.  
 

 

[TheBeaneBandit]

I believe Greg Newsome the CB from Northwestern woulda been the pick at 30 if he hadn't gone a few picks earlier. But I'm a line of scrimmage purist so I'm still very happy how things played out. Next offseason I believe CB, youth at WR and size at DT will be the top 3 positions of focus. Of course RB as well if the value lines up.

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Thanks for explaining.  I see and agree with many of your points.

 

I think coaching was also the biggest issue in that game.  I will rewatch the game with focus on Levi, but I do remember LB and Nickel having a few rough plays.  I also can appreciate the point about shading help (usually Hyde) to him more (Joe M mentioned as well). 

 

I just land in a different place relative to priorities, but I do understand your logic.  At this point itll just play out.  Thanks again for talking through it.

I hear ya.  I get your point.  Maybe I put too much focus on how he matches up with KC.  

Maybe I’m wrong in assuming that McD has very little confidence in Levi vs the KC O.   But what if I’m right and our D opens up other holes on the field because we are shading help to Levi’s side.  
 

i just expected a better attempt at upgrading the position.  His 1.75M salary is evidence of how he is viewed by our team…..and the league 

 

[HappyDays]

19 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The KC WRs we’re running wide open all game.  Literally wide open.  Lots of that had to do with god awful defensive play calling. Imo, our coaching staff was THE biggest issue that game and the biggest contributor to taking the L.  I also feel that we shade more help towards Levi to protect him.  That’s why “cb2 isn’t as valuable” in mcDs defense.  Well…..i think it’s time that we see what this defense would look like with a better cb2.  It’s a premium position. We have 5 WRs that are better at their position than Levi is at his.  There’s no reason we shouldn’t invest more in cb2.  We’re competing against KC.  
 

agree to disagree my man. 

 

And I'm not against an upgrade to CB2, but it seems like everyone here thinks Steven Nelson was going to represent a massive upgrade and I don't see it that way. The difference between Wallace and Nelson is not enough to change our season outlook. I would have been fine with them drafting a CB in the 1st or 2nd round but I'm not gonna sit here and say any CB we would have drafted over Rousseau or Basham would have been a good player. So it is what it is. Team building isn't a perfect process, sometimes you accept average players at certain positions instead of reaching or overspending out of necessity.

 

As you said they need to fix the defensive scheme first. It was too predictable last year and savvy QBs like Rivers and Mahomes took advantage of that. Even beyond the pass rush my biggest concern with the defense is Edmunds. He plays a vital role in McDermott's scheme and if he can't perform the whole defense falls apart.

 

But yeah, agree to disagree 🍻

Edited July 30, 2021 by HappyDays

[Saxum]

22 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

I'd put Siran Neal in that category, as well. Not that I think there is currently a starting spot for him, but every time he's out there he performs. He's super versatile, can play safety, CB, or nickel, and he's fierce. One of my favorite players who's not a starter.

 

Siran Neal's Nice Interception | 2021 Bills Camp Highlight

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/siran-neal-s-nice-interception-2021-bills-camp-highlight

[Rocky Landing]

Just now, Limeaid said:

 

Siran Neal's Nice Interception | 2021 Bills Camp Highlight

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/siran-neal-s-nice-interception-2021-bills-camp-highlight

 I read about that a couple hours after I sung his praise on here-- nothing better than a healthy dose of confirmation bias!

 

Thanks for the link, though. I didn't know it was on tape. As I said above: fierce!

[Richard Noggin]

13 hours ago, NewEra said:

What does this mean?  He wasn’t within one yard of a receiver catching a pass one time in the AFCCG.  Off man. Off man. Off man.  Everyone knows what he does.  That’s the only thing he can do vs guys who are much better athletes than he is.  Keep the play in front of him.  He cost us plenty in the game that we lost.   He wasn’t the main reason we lost…..but his ability as a cover corner certainly cost us.  Rewatch the game.  Watch his play.

Interestingly enough, Wallace just today admitted that playing off technique was something he was not comfortable with at first in Buffalo, coming from Alabama where they had him manning up on guys on the line. He mentioned that Dane Jackson, coming from Pitt's program, has dealt with the same transition since being drafted. These are guys who are being taught to play off on purpose (and learning a lot from Tre White on how to do it well, according to Wallace), NOT being lined up that way because that's all they can do. It's what the team wants its corners to excel at primarily. 

[NewEra]

9 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Interestingly enough, Wallace just today admitted that playing off technique was something he was not comfortable with at first in Buffalo, coming from Alabama where they had him manning up on guys on the line. He mentioned that Dane Jackson, coming from Pitt's program, has dealt with the same transition since being drafted. These are guys who are being taught to play off on purpose (and learning a lot from Tre White on how to do it well, according to Wallace), NOT being lined up that way because that's all they can do. It's what the team wants its corners to excel at primarily. 

It was a good interview. Levi is a sharp kid.  I really like him. I don’t like him playing man in the NFL.  There’s a big difference between playing man in college at Alabama than playing man in the nfl.  

[Shaw66]

I haven't been following the reports from camp, until I began skipping through this thread.  I get one overwhelming impression, and that is the process at work.  

 

Bring in the right new talent, keep the right old talent, expect players to learn more each day.  

 

Who really knows, but it seems like there's serious competition at corner, on the d line, on the o line, at wideout, at running back, and (in a sense) even at QB.  Trubisky isn't taking Allen's job, but he's probably showing Allen how to do some things that Trubisky learned in his days starting in the NFL.  

 

 

[SCBills]

22 hours ago, NewEra said:

Man is a big part of it.  He’s not good in man and Frazier dialed up lots of man coverages on 3rd down. 3rd downs rule the league.  I don’t want him out there on 3rd downs playing man.  I’d prefer someone better.  We signed him for 1.75M a year.  That’s backup $.  I would prioritize the guy covering one side of the field over paying Tyler Matakavich 3.5M per year…. Double Levi.  Or paying our DT4  4 times more than our CB2.  
 

 

Im not as down on Levi as you are.. but I absolutely get where you’re coming from, especially if he’s a 3rd down liability. 
 

The money you pointed is certainly strange.  The fact we have Tyler Matakevich and rotational DT’s making so much more than a potential CB2 is bizarre asset allocation. 

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Im not as down on Levi as you are.. but I absolutely get where you’re coming from, especially if he’s a 3rd down liability. 
 

The money you pointed is certainly strange.  The fact we have Tyler Matakevich and rotational DT’s making so much more than a potential CB2 is bizarre asset allocation. 

I think levi is serviceable.  I don’t think he’s bad.  The fact remains, the road to the SB runs through KC and I don’t think he can come close to covering the speed of Hill or hardman.  Being versatile and confusing Mahomes is a big part of beating them.  I don’t think Levi is versatile.  I just would just prefer a cb2 that is more athletic and can turn and run with whoever he’s lined up against.  I don’t have confidence that he can do that.  I feel that his focus is to keep the play in front of him…..as opposed to preventing the first down