Training Camp practice 7/29

[Shaw66]

Some of you are really dissing Wallace, and I'd guess you're off base. 

 

I say guess, but it's only a guess.   I evaluate players by what I see, by looking at stats, and by watching the player personnel decisions the Bills make.  I watch the decisions, because they are some evidence of the positions where the Bills are getting the kind of play they want and the positions where they think the incumbent wasn't doing enough.  

 

Based on what I see, I'd agree with NewEra - although Wallace plays solid, he rarely seems to make the positive play that leads to a stopped drive.  He's around the play, but he rarely seems to make the play. 

 

If you look at his stats, he had 8 passes defended and 2 INTs in 12 games.  White had 11 and 3 in 14 games.  So, what's wrong with that?   Of course, White may have been target less often, so his success rate may have been better, but still, the raw numbers for Wallace are far from embarrassing.  

 

Most important, however, for three off seasons now the Bills have shown no desperation to replace Wallace.  They signed that guy from the Colts, who quit after one half of the first game.  They signed Josh Norman.   They went after no veteran this season.   They haven't used a quality draft pick for a corner.   All of that suggests that Wallace is doing what the Bills want from him, despite how it may look to us fans.  Yes, they have brought in a couple of rookies who are showing well and may be threats to make the team, and yes, they have Dane Jackson competing for time, but that's all in the ordinary course of how McDermott keep strengthening the team - bring in young talent, coach 'em up, and let them compete.   

 

At other positions, if the Bills think they have a hole, they fill it with a veteran.   For a few seasons now, they have not done that CB2.  

 

That tells me that Wallace is not the problem that many of us tend to think he is.   Could someone play better at CB2?  Sure, and maybe one of the young players will emerge.  But like very other team, the Bills can't afford to pay two #1 corners so, so long as White is a consensus star at #1 and paid like one, the Bills aren't going to spend big a CB#.  

[Shaw66]

Just now, NewEra said:

I think levi is serviceable.  I don’t think he’s bad.  The fact remains, the road to the SB runs through KC and I don’t think he can come close to covering the speed of Hill or hardman.  Being versatile and confusing Mahomes is a big part of beating them.  I don’t think Levi is versatile.  I just would just prefer a cb2 that is more athletic and can turn and run with whoever he’s lined up against.  I don’t have confidence that he can do that.  I feel that his focus is to keep the play in front of him…..as opposed to preventing the first down 

McBeane (and plenty of others who have had success in the NFL) have been clear that they do NOT build their team to beat one opponent.  They don't build their team in response to what the current best team in the league is doing.  They build their team to be the best team in the league and let other teams respond to them.  

 

Sure, KC comes at you with an awesome array of talent, good scheme, and a superstar QB.   The philosophy McBeane are following is to build a team with an awesome array of talent, good scheme, and a superstar QB.  How do I know that that is the philosophy?   Because McBeane didn't make wholesale changes in the team, and in particular didn't make changes to counter what KC does best.   They didn't go after a safety or MLB to stop Kelce, and they didn't go after a CB2 to stop whichever speedster KC puts on the field opposite Hill.   Yes, they got good young talent at DE, pass rush talent, and you can make the argument that the Bucs showed that the way to neutralize Mahomes was with relentless pass rush, but EVERY team knows that their team will be better with relentless pass rush.  Rousseau and Basham weren't a response so much to KC as they were a response to a general team need.  

 

Beyond that, McDermott was startlingly clear after the season ended that he was ready to play 2021 with the same personnel he had in 2020.  He believed that because, having watched his team lose to the Chiefs in the Championship game, he knew that his team, with the current personnel, could be prepared to win games against KC.  He didn't need more talent.   If he believed that KC's #2 receiver would dominate Wallace, no matter what the coaches did to prepare Wallace or to help him, then any GM, including Beane, would have gone out to get McDermott help.  

[Shaw66]

14 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I think levi is serviceable.  I don’t think he’s bad.  The fact remains, the road to the SB runs through KC and I don’t think he can come close to covering the speed of Hill or hardman.  Being versatile and confusing Mahomes is a big part of beating them.  I don’t think Levi is versatile.  I just would just prefer a cb2 that is more athletic and can turn and run with whoever he’s lined up against.  I don’t have confidence that he can do that.  I feel that his focus is to keep the play in front of him…..as opposed to preventing the first down 

Well, ask McDermott, and I'm sure he'd say he wants a CB2 who is more athletic and can and run with whoever he's line up with.  Unfortunately, that's the definition of a CB1.  Unless you get lucky and find a CB1-caliber player on a rookie contract, you aren't going to have a guy like that playing CB2 - prudent salary cap management precludes it.  

 

Because McDermott doesn't plan his defense with the expectation that he will have a CB1-talent playing CB2, he designs the defense to succeed with CB2 talent at CB2.   That's exactly why Wallace plays to keep the play in front of him as opposed to preventing the first down.  So, what you say would be nice, but I don't expect it to happen.   

 

Now, if one the rookies turns out to be a sleeper CB1, great, then your wish will be granted.  When his contract is up, the Bills might actually pay him CB1 money to get him to stay, but if they do, it will be with the expectation that White won't be renewed when his current contract is up.  When that happens, that rookie will become the CB1, and McDermott will once again be faced with the problem of building a defense with CB2 filled by a guy with CB2 talent.   

 

The point is that the process they're following is not predicated on the idea that the Bills will play with two corners who are CB1 talents.  It's an unreasonable expectation, so they aren't building with that in mind.  The process dictates that McDermott look at stopping WR1 as primarily a personnel problem, but stopping WR2 is primarily a scheme and coaching problem.  

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

McBeane (and plenty of others who have had success in the NFL) have been clear that they do NOT build their team to beat one opponent.  They don't build their team in response to what the current best team in the league is doing.  They build their team to be the best team in the league and let other teams respond to them.  

 

Sure, KC comes at you with an awesome array of talent, good scheme, and a superstar QB.   The philosophy McBeane are following is to build a team with an awesome array of talent, good scheme, and a superstar QB.  How do I know that that is the philosophy?   Because McBeane didn't make wholesale changes in the team, and in particular didn't make changes to counter what KC does best.   They didn't go after a safety or MLB to stop Kelce, and they didn't go after a CB2 to stop whichever speedster KC puts on the field opposite Hill.   Yes, they got good young talent at DE, pass rush talent, and you can make the argument that the Bucs showed that the way to neutralize Mahomes was with relentless pass rush, but EVERY team knows that their team will be better with relentless pass rush.  Rousseau and Basham weren't a response so much to KC as they were a response to a general team need.  

 

Beyond that, McDermott was startlingly clear after the season ended that he was ready to play 2021 with the same personnel he had in 2020.  He believed that because, having watched his team lose to the Chiefs in the Championship game, he knew that his team, with the current personnel, could be prepared to win games against KC.  He didn't need more talent.   If he believed that KC's #2 receiver would dominate Wallace, no matter what the coaches did to prepare Wallace or to help him, then any GM, including Beane, would have gone out to get McDermott help.  

good post.  I agree that we shouldn’t actually build our team to defeat one opponent.  As a fan, I look at our matchup vs KC as inevitable if we plan on winning the super bowl.   Keeping the same personnel means that the difference will have to be in the playbook and the play calling.  We watched as our coaching staff got badly outclassed in 2 matchups vs the chiefs last season.  Did our coaches tell our pass defense to play so far off man that everyone was wide open?   In the first matchup,  we 💯 sold out to stop their pass and gave them 1st down after 1st down on the ground.  Two completely different game plans.  Neither of which had any success.  Let’s hope the pass rush acquisitions we made this offseason will be better than last years moves.  

 

Regarding the bolded……Imo, That’s kind of the problem with playing zone so often.  He won’t be matched up with their #2 WR. The chiefs can just put Hill on levis side.  They can do this more effectively if they suspect we’re playing zone.  I was really hoping that we would scheme some more man into our concepts to give the opponents some fresh looks.  Keep it moving and adapting.  That said, I was hoping for a more versatile cb2. One with more athleticism, speed and strength.  

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, ask McDermott, and I'm sure he'd say he wants a CB2 who is more athletic and can and run with whoever he's line up with.  Unfortunately, that's the definition of a CB1.  Unless you get lucky and find a CB1-caliber player on a rookie contract, you aren't going to have a guy like that playing CB2 - prudent salary cap management precludes it.  

 

Because McDermott doesn't plan his defense with the expectation that he will have a CB1-talent playing CB2, he designs the defense to succeed with CB2 talent at CB2.   That's exactly why Wallace plays to keep the play in front of him as opposed to preventing the first down.  So, what you say would be nice, but I don't expect it to happen.   

 

Now, if one the rookies turns out to be a sleeper CB1, great, then your wish will be granted.  When his contract is up, the Bills might actually pay him CB1 money to get him to stay, but if they do, it will be with the expectation that White won't be renewed when his current contract is up.  When that happens, that rookie will become the CB1, and McDermott will once again be faced with the problem of building a defense with CB2 filled by a guy with CB2 talent.   

 

The point is that the process they're following is not predicated on the idea that the Bills will play with two corners who are CB1 talents.  It's an unreasonable expectation, so they aren't building with that in mind.  The process dictates that McDermott look at stopping WR1 as primarily a personnel problem, but stopping WR2 is primarily a scheme and coaching problem.  

He designs the defense to give lots of help to one side of the field leaving our cb1 alone.  Another reason why I was hoping for a better cb2.  I’d prefer if we didn’t design our defense give Levi so much help.  Maybe that’s why Edmunds coverage zone is so large and everyone was wide open running across the field.
 

there’s a difference between having 2 cb1’s and upgrading from Levi wallace. They are not the same thing.  Levi is slow and weak.  Speed and strength are important in one on one matchups.  Levi was supposedly coached up at bama in press man as that’s all they played…..yet he doesn’t fit as a press corner in the nfl.  His long arms are a plus but that’s where his pluses end in man coverage.  
 

The Bucs top 3 corners- two were mid second rd picks and the other a mid 3rd.  Meanwhile we drafted RBs in rd 3 back to back years.  Premium position vs dime a dozen position.  
 

I was hoping for an upgrade @cb2.  Most fans and analysts were.  If you were hoping that Levi was our starter again this year, it looks like you got your wish.  Let’s hope it doesn’t have the same ending as last year. 

 
 

 

[Shaw66]

31 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He designs the defense to give lots of help to one side of the field leaving our cb1 alone.  Another reason why I was hoping for a better cb2.  I’d prefer if we didn’t design our defense give Levi so much help.  Maybe that’s why Edmunds coverage zone is so large and everyone was wide open running across the field.
 

there’s a difference between having 2 cb1’s and upgrading from Levi wallace. They are not the same thing.  Levi is slow and weak.  Speed and strength are important in one on one matchups.  Levi was supposedly coached up at bama in press man as that’s all they played…..yet he doesn’t fit as a press corner in the nfl.  His long arms are a plus but that’s where his pluses end in man coverage.  
 

The Bucs top 3 corners- two were mid second rd picks and the other a mid 3rd.  Meanwhile we drafted RBs in rd 3 back to back years.  Premium position vs dime a dozen position.  
 

I was hoping for an upgrade @cb2.  Most fans and analysts were.  If you were hoping that Levi was our starter again this year, it looks like you got your wish.  Let’s hope it doesn’t have the same ending as last year. 

 
 

 

Good stuff - this and your other response.   

 

I wasn't hoping Levi would be the starter.  I've been very content the entire off season to just let things play out.  I'm sure if there had been an appropriate guy in free agency, the Bills would have gone after him to challenge for the CB2.  They did it with Norman and this did with the guy who quit.  I suspect this off-season they didn't find an appropriate guy in part because Levi go better (at least in their eyes) last season.   

 

As you say, the whole KC thing is simply the fact that they're the current perfect storm in the NFL - superstar QB, lights out #1 wideout, good complementary wideouts, All-Pro TE, and an outstanding offensive coach.   Brutal to prepare for them, in part because Reid always has prepared his team with an answer.  So, as you say, he can find a way to get Hill on Wallace.  As I said and you agree, it's unrealistic to think the Bills can find a guy to put over there who's good enough to handle Hill.   Sure, maybe you can upgrade a bit, but unless you upgrade to a top-10 corner, to another White, Hill is going to eat him up.   Hill eats up everyone but the very best.  

 

I don't know who the Bucs had at corner, but I don't think they shut down the Chiefs with corners.  They did it with pass rush.   Pass rush is, frankly, always the answer.  If you can't pressure Brady, he's tough to beat.  If you can't pressure Mahomes, he's tough to beat.  If you can't pressure Allen, or Rodgers, they're tough to beat.   I think the plan to beat the Chiefs in the playoffs is to develop Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa, and maybe one or two others so that when that game happens next January, Mahomes is running for his life.   (And, by the way, the plan on offense is to develop Ford and one or two of the rookies and the returning veterans so that Allen is NOT running for his life.) 

 

What's so encouraging is that the Bills look like they should be much better in 2021.  That sounds stupid - how can they be much better when they already were pretty clearly a top 5 team by the end of the season?    But look at it - because of experience alone, they should be better at every position group - safeties, corners, linebacker, DL, OL, RB, receiver, QB, TE.  Every position group.   On top of that, they have three new guys who should contribute on the Dline, maybe one who can contribute at linebacker, better depth at defensive back, Ford returning plus three rookies with at least the size and talent to compete to start on the OL, a better backup QB, a starting QB who's still learning, another RB to challenge for playing time, Sanders plus Davis coming off a good rookie season.   There's reason to be optimistic all over the team.   

 

Quite amazing. 

[Chandler#81]

Idk what team you’re watching, but Buffalo has brought in veteran CB’s EVERY year to try to unseat Wallace. 
Why new, established vet CB’s EVERY year? Because None of them have yet..

🤷‍♂️

[Chandler#81]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Who? Josh Norman? 😅

Yes. He of the Pick 6 variety. Also Kevin Johnson (twice).