ExiledInIllinois Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 3 hours ago, IronMaidenBills said: Why would anyone buy a Tesla outside of it’s warranty range full knowing that batteries are the most expensive to replace. While most Tesla’s will last well over 100k miles as battery degradation on average is reliable, it’s still a big risk to buy an old model past warranty. Something isn’t adding up in the story. It says he bought it in 2013 (assuming new), and it was fine for the 1st 1,000 miles. Tesla’s are warrantied 150k miles or 8 years. Sounds like he used the Tesla well up until this year and it fell past the 8 year warranty. If you are getting 150k miles on a car, that’s about average before things go downhill. The owner is Finnish. All bets off. 150k is "service life" on most vehicles... But you can get many miles past that. Diesel motors will run for a million miles. Heck a timing CHAIN will get you 250k. The used market will be bruuuutal for these EVs. You'd have to have a hole in your head to get a used one. They simply won't go without proprietary parts? The best thing you can do for the environment is drive a traditional fuel powered vehicle to the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milanos Milano Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 12 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said: The owner is Finnish. All bets off. 150k is "service life" on most vehicles... But you can get many miles past that. Diesel motors will run for a million miles. Heck a timing CHAIN will get you 250k. The used market will be bruuuutal for these EVs. You'd have to have a hole in your head to get a used one. They simply won't go without proprietary parts? The best thing you can do for the environment is drive a traditional fuel powered vehicle to the ground. Not necessarily. EVs, from cradle to grave still have a lower footprint, even if powered by coal generated electricity. This is due to the greater efficiencies of electric generation/transmission and electric motors. Lithium mining still polluted less than hydrofractured oil/gas. MIT and others have already make very good calculations on this. EVs are the cleanest, especially if they are powered by solar and renewables. Most of the batteries are able to be recycled and the majority of the metals are recoverable. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 minute ago, IronMaidenBills said: Not necessarily. EVs, from cradle to grave still have a lower footprint, even if powered by coal generated electricity. This is due to the greater efficiencies of electric generation/transmission and electric motors. Lithium mining still polluted less than hydrofractured oil/gas. MIT and others have already make very good calculations on this. EVs are the cleanest, especially if they are powered by solar and renewables. Most of the batteries are able to be recycled and the majority of the metals are recoverable. The human suffering in Li mining? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milanos Milano Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 Just now, ExiledInIllinois said: The human suffering in Li mining? Most of lithium mining is surface mining. Usually desert salt flats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 Enjoy your human tragedy: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/ 😉 😜 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milanos Milano Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 Just now, ExiledInIllinois said: Enjoy your human tragedy: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/ 😉 😜 Elon has already stated he wants to transition away from cobalt used in the cathode. At the very least away from Congo cobalt. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/9/22/21451670/tesla-cobalt-free-cathodes-mining-battery-nickel-ev-cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milanos Milano Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 Not sure why people are against EVs anyways. Even if it wasn’t for the environmental side of things. There is only enough oil/gas for about 120 years given current rates of consumption around the world. Fossil fuels are not infinite. The costs of recovery are increasing due to deeper formations. All the easy oil and gas is gone. This country would be smart to transition to EVs ASAP, and keep the oil and gas that we do have left in strategic reserves. Because we are going to need it for future asphalt, plastics, etc as an emergency. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 12 minutes ago, IronMaidenBills said: Elon has already stated he wants to transition away from cobalt used in the cathode. At the very least away from Congo cobalt. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/9/22/21451670/tesla-cobalt-free-cathodes-mining-battery-nickel-ev-cost "Wants" to transition away vs. "Actually" transitions away. Will he pay back for the advance he got. Is that factored into the overall cost, human and environmental tragedy? 5 minutes ago, IronMaidenBills said: Not sure why people are against EVs anyways. Even if it wasn’t for the environmental side of things. There is only enough oil/gas for about 120 years given current rates of consumption around the world. Fossil fuels are not infinite. The costs of recovery are increasing due to deeper formations. All the easy oil and gas is gone. This country would be smart to transition to EVs ASAP, and keep the oil and gas that we do have left in strategic reserves. Because we are going to need it for future asphalt, plastics, etc as an emergency. Not against it. Just doesn't make any sense. What am I gonna do with something I can't get rolling when it has 200k on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milanos Milano Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said: "Wants" to transition away vs. "Actually" transitions away. Will he pay back for the advance he got. Is that factored into the overall cost, human and environmental tragedy? Not against it. Just doesn't make any sense. What am I gonna do with something I can't get rolling when it has 200k on it? Im not saying EVs are “super green” . Nothing is super green, however factoring in everything, EVs are technically the “cleanest” technology we have. I don’t think we have much of a choice, EVs are going to be the predominant form of transportation because it has to be. We need to save what oil/gas we have left for things that are not easy to replicate (asphalt, plastics, etc). I’ve worked in the gas industry I’ve also worked in the renewables industry. Energy is not free, there is some form of pollution with every type. What we do know is oil/gas reserves (both proven and TRR) have limits and the world’s consumption rates are not sustainable without new forms of energy. I’m sure nuclear will make a comeback, but they need to figure out how to process or dispose all that waste as well. Nobody wants another love canal. Edited December 28, 2021 by IronMaidenBills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milanos Milano Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 Nuclear fusion is potentially the key to humankind’s future. But we are likely at least another 30 years away from it even remotely coming online in any meaningful way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, IronMaidenBills said: Im not saying EVs are “super green” . Nothing is super green, however factoring in everything, EVs are technically the “cleanest” technology we have. I don’t think we have much of a choice, EVs are going to be the predominant form of transportation because it has to be. We need to save what oil/gas we have left for things that are not easy to replicate (asphalt, plastics, etc). I’ve worked in the gas industry I’ve also worked in the renewables industry. Energy is not free, there is some form of pollution with every type. What we do know is oil/gas reserves (both proven and TRR) have limits and the world’s consumption rates are not sustainable without new forms of energy. I’m sure nuclear will make a comeback, back they need to figure out how to process all that waste as well. Nobody wants another love canal. Then we all need to consume less. But there are more Love Canals than at any other times in history... Just as there's more human slavery... We, US... That is the two of us speaking just don't see it right under our noses. I am hammering away on a phone... I just don't kid myself the world's a cleaner, better place. In fact, I am probably making it worse. The divide between the "Haves" and "Have Nots" is only getting greater... And tech ain't helping. The most important part for me in a vehicle purchase is that at the end or near the end of its service life I can get that vehicle rolling and doing work that's NOT cost prohibitive. THAT ability should be engineered into everything! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milanos Milano Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 1 minute ago, ExiledInIllinois said: Then we all need to consume less. But there are more Love Canals than at any other times in history... Just as there's more human slavery... We, US... That is the two of us speaking just don't see it right under our noses. I am hammering away on a phone... I just don't kid myself the world's a cleaner, better place. In fact, I am probably making it worse. The divide between the "Haves" and "Have Nots" is only getting greater... And tech ain't helping. The most important part for me in a vehicle purchase is that at the end or near the end of its service life I can get that vehicle rolling and doing work that's NOT cost prohibitive. THAT ability should be engineered into everything! Consuming less isn’t promoted because it hurts how our economic system operates. Businesses need sales and they need a throw away society to perpetuate said sales. Nothing last anymore, refrigerators and many things used to last 30+ years. I fully understand I’m (we) all contribute to the problems. The problems won’t go away until we all sit down and try and find solutions. Nuclear fusion is a big step into helping things out. It’s the most efficient energy form and it’s cleaner than fission and can run on elements that we have hundreds of thousands of years worth of supplies. Things will change because they have to change. Necessity is the mother of all inventions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 I'd buy an EV in a heart beat if Guys like Musk would take it back, no questions asked, for a predetermined % paid directly to me in cash... Like a glass milk bottle in the old days.. Let me walk free with $$$ in my pocket to either invest in another one from same company or walk next door and buy from the competition... OR just stopping drinking milk all together. 😆 Final disposal should be tied right back to companies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milanos Milano Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 5 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said: I'd buy an EV in a heart beat if Guys like Musk would take it back, no questions asked, for a predetermined % paid directly to me in cash... Like a glass milk bottle in the old days.. Let me walk free with $$$ in my pocket to either invest in another one from same company or walk next door and buy from the competition... OR just stopping drinking milk all together. 😆 Final disposal should be tied right back to companies. Companies are not doing enough in terms of externalities. They design a product and don’t care where it ends up. There is no “away” . Plastics ends up in bodies of water, pollution runoff via air or land. The problem is, even if you tax or regulate businesses, they will roll the costs onto the consumer. Our whole systems need critiquing, but that is frowned upon by a lot of people. Even saying things like consume less will get you labeled a commie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Info Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 (edited) Regarding Tesla batteries The new 4680 battery technology will not use cobalt (very expensive & child labor concerns in countries where mined). https://www.torquenews.com/15553/elon-musk-said-tesla-can-already-do-without-cobalt-its-batteries-and-it-true “…new design is 56 percent cheaper to produce and needs about half the real estate to generate the same power as a 74-kWh Model Y battery pack. Tesla says this will be the first million-mile battery, and estimates that it will retain 90 percent of its life after 4,000 charge/discharge cycles.“ This should result in cost reduction for EVs though that remains to be determined. Edited December 28, 2021 by Mr Info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted December 28, 2021 Share Posted December 28, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said: Then we all need to consume less. We need a Thanos. Edited December 28, 2021 by Just Jack 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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