Who made Who in 2020? Allen vs Diggs

[Ya Digg?]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You are not turning Lamar Jackson into a great passer, whatever you do. They could, however, make better picks at receiver... I do think Bateman is a better fit there. I never liked the Hollywood Brown pick for them it was an odd fit. 

100% agree with you there-I just don’t get the argument that the Ravens haven’t done enough for Lamar. They’ve brought in free agents, used draft picks, etc. I’m with you though-they clearly haven’t brought in the right guys. This is where I think the Bills front office has been much better. They have identified very specific skill sets that they know go really well with what Josh does and doesn’t do well. Baltimore has not been good with that. That being said, I think it’s pretty clear that Lamar isn’t capable of raising his guys level of play the way that Josh is able to

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

100% agree with you there-I just don’t get the argument that the Ravens haven’t done enough for Lamar. They’ve brought in free agents, used draft picks, etc. I’m with you though-they clearly haven’t brought in the right guys. This is where I think the Bills front office has been much better. They have identified very specific skill sets that they know go really well with what Josh does and doesn’t do well. Baltimore has not been good with that. That being said, I think it’s pretty clear that Lamar isn’t capable of raising his guys level of play the way that Josh is able to

 

Maybe at the point they drafted Brown they were still thinking that they could develop Lamar into an all around Quarterback. To me though I think he is an average to good passer between the hashes and a below average to poor passer out side the hashes. So every time you get a weapon for Lamar Jackson it should be a guy who is comfortable going in where the bodies are and taking the hits that hurt. I still think there is a route to winning for Baltimore with Lamar (it's a narrower route than you have if you have a Patrick Mahomes or a Josh Allen) but it isn't trying to improve his weaknesses for me. I think I have enough evidence now to conclude he won't ever by a good thrower to the outside of the field. So they have to build their team and their offense to lean into his strengths. I think generally they have made a reasonably good job of that but they have had some misses at receiver. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Boxcar]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Maybe at the point they drafted Brown they were still thinking that they could develop Lamar into an all around Quarterback. To me though I think he is an average to good passer between the hashes and a below average to poor passer out side the hashes. So every time you get a weapon for Lamar Jackson it should be a guy who is comfortable going in where the bodies are and taking the hits that hurt. I still think there is a route to winning for Baltimore with Lamar (it's a narrower route than you have if you have a Patrick Mahomes or a Josh Allen) but it isn't trying to improve his weaknesses for me. I think I have enough evidence now to conclude he won't ever by a good thrower to the outside of the field. So they have to build their team and their offense to lean into his strengths. I think generally they have made a reasonably good job of that but they have had some misses at receiver. 

They will always blame Greg Roman until someone takes his place. Then they will blame that guy. Then they'll blame the receivers. Lamar will never experience any blame at all.

 

I actually listened to the Allen defense in this video and it honestly barely sounded like one. They SF fan did a terrible job making his case. Why would they get a Niners fan to make it, anyway? Shoulda brought on our boys Erik Turner or Greg Tompsett.

[Ramza86]

Just by previous years youd have to say Diggs made Allen. Diggs has been doing it his whole career.

 

Most Bills fans here know that Josh was going to make some sort of a jump in year 3 regardless of Diggs

 

but Diggs made it look much better. 

 

Either way, Allen has ascended and Diggs was a part of making that happen a lot sooner.

[HappyDays]

Why is it accepted that this is a reasonable argument against Josh Allen, but not against Pat Mahomes? I think certain people need to just admit their pre-draft opinion of Allen was wrong.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I'd add it takes 3 to tango and add Daboll into the mix as sounds like from much of what Diggs said, he was the first OC that kind of listened to Diggs as devised plays to take advantage of Diggs strengths.  Plus in general sounded like he had many more routes to run.

 

Having said that while all 3 contributed, do still feel overall was the improvement of Allen.  Without the arm strength, improved accuracy, and his ability to avoid sacks; all the route running doesn't help much, still need to get him or Beasley the ball.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Why is it accepted that this is a reasonable argument against Josh Allen, but not against Pat Mahomes? I think certain people need to just admit their pre-draft opinion of Allen was wrong.

 

I agree there is some of that. I think it didn't occur against Mahomes because he was great day 1. To casual observers it looked like Diggs arrived and Allen took off. Those of us who watch this team know that Josh's progress, which not linear, has been more gradual over the first two years. He was already a much better QB at the end of year 2 than he was at the start of year 1. I suspect if Josh backs it up with another outstanding year, and there is no reason to believe that he won't, some of those more stubborn critics will fall away.  

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, Victory Formation said:

Ok I just nursed my first cup of coffee, so I’m sorry if this doesn’t make much sense, but then again my posts hardly ever make sense so you may not spot the difference. ☕️☕️

Chicken or egg? Tell me how Brady did without Mike Evans, Gronk and Chris Godwin in his final year with the Patriots?

 

Sure, QB is the most important position in football, sure a great QB will make do with average receivers, but it takes good to great WRs even for a QB as talented as Brady to win the Super Bowl and to go deep in the playoffs.

 

I totally hear what you are saying, but I think you are looking at things backwards.

 

How did Brady do without those Allstars - well in NE in 2019 he threw for:

 

3961 yards on 378 completions

25 TDs and 9 Ints

 

His receivers were Edelman, White with support from Dorsett, Burkhead, and Sanu.

 

In 2020 - with similar WRs (Meyers, White, Byrd, Harry, Burkhead, and Edelman for part of the year) - the Pats QBs threw for:

 

2890 yards on 283 completions 

12 TDs and 14 Ints

 

So back to the original question - no Brady could not be Elite - Super Bowl level with those WRs, but he did significantly more with a really bad WR group than Cam did the next year with slightly more talent.

 

I think NE is another example of how important QB play is.  Without Brady the NE passing attack with subpar WRs was not good at all and with Brady and subpar WRs - the passing attack was pretty good.

 

The biggest difference in NE from 2019 to 2020 was at QB and it cost NE games during the season and overall gameplay.

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Maybe at the point they drafted Brown they were still thinking that they could develop Lamar into an all around Quarterback. To me though I think he is an average to good passer between the hashes and a below average to poor passer out side the hashes. So every time you get a weapon for Lamar Jackson it should be a guy who is comfortable going in where the bodies are and taking the hits that hurt. I still think there is a route to winning for Baltimore with Lamar (it's a narrower route than you have if you have a Patrick Mahomes or a Josh Allen) but it isn't trying to improve his weaknesses for me. I think I have enough evidence now to conclude he won't ever by a good thrower to the outside of the field. So they have to build their team and their offense to lean into his strengths. I think generally they have made a reasonably good job of that but they have had some misses at receiver. 

 

100% agree - I actually think if they would just embrace his strengths even more - they could be a better team.  I thought Harbaugh was going to do that, but they have strayed more and more trying to get better WRs on the outside.  Their strength is running and TE play - embrace that and supplement with big bodied WRs that can catch routes toward the middle.

[P Riv]

14 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

I totally hear what you are saying, but I think you are looking at things backwards.

 

How did Brady do without those Allstars - well in NE in 2019 he threw for:

 

3961 yards on 378 completions

25 TDs and 9 Ints

 

His receivers were Edelman, White with support from Dorsett, Burkhead, and Sanu.

 

In 2020 - with similar WRs (Meyers, White, Byrd, Harry, Burkhead, and Edelman for part of the year) - the Pats QBs threw for:

 

2890 yards on 283 completions 

12 TDs and 14 Ints

 

So back to the original question - no Brady could not be Elite - Super Bowl level with those WRs, but he did significantly more with a really bad WR group than Cam did the next year with slightly more talent.

 

I think NE is another example of how important QB play is.  Without Brady the NE passing attack with subpar WRs was not good at all and with Brady and subpar WRs - the passing attack was pretty good.

 

The biggest difference in NE from 2019 to 2020 was at QB and it cost NE games during the season and overall gameplay.

 

 

 

You left out the number of pass attempts vs. run attempts.  The production wasn't as bad as you portray it, but it was bad and Brady could not possibly have willed them into the playoffs (which I think is why he left actually).  Had he stayed and sucked it up for a year, I think they'd be contenders this year.  I'd say he did ok though... 

[Nihilarian]

Who made who?

 

It was Brandon Beane that drafted Josh Allen when most were clamoring for Josh Rosen. Also, most Bills fans wanted the Bills to trade up with the NY Giants and give up the farm in doing so for Rosen. Thankfully, Beane knew what he was doing.

 

Beane also traded the Buffalo Bills #1 draft pick for Diggs..."The Buffalo Bills acquired the Vikings receiver and a 2020 seventh-round pick in exchange for a 2020 first-round pick (No. 22 overall), a 2020 fifth-round pick, a 2020 sixth-round pick and a 2021 fourth-round pick".

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/bills-acquire-wr-stefon-diggs-from-vikings-in-trade-0ap3000001106563

 

There is no question that Allen is the better passing QB, between he and Larmar Jackson. 

 

Lastly, what I find amusing is that the Ravens now want to turn Jackson into more of a pocket passer...this with Greg Roman as his OC. We all saw what happened with Colin Kaepernick in SF under Roman when they attempted this same thing.

[Rochesterfan]

Just now, P Riv said:

 

You left out the number of pass attempts vs. run attempts.  The production wasn't as bad as you portray it, but it was bad and Brady could not possibly have willed them into the playoffs (which I think is why he left actually).  Had he stayed and sucked it up for a year, I think they'd be contenders this year.  I'd say he did ok though... 

 

 

Yes I included completions for both and yes without Brady they had to run more, but they were significantly less successful through the air with Cam.

 

I would also argue that I think with Brady last year - the Pats had a good shot at the playoffs.  Cam had 5 games with the ball late in the 4th quarter to drive to win games and lost them all - including the fumble in Buffalo. 
 

If Brady - who is known for winning those types of games - wins 3-4 of them - they are better than Miami and have a great shot at a wild card rather than the losing record.

 

Cam also struggled right before half and they had a game in Denver I believe that went from a lead to a 10 point deficit in the last 2 minutes of a half because their QB was inaccurate.

 

I think the difference between Brady and Cam is about 4 games making NE potentially 11-5 last year.  
 

I am glad he moved on.

[Stank_Nasty]

2 hours ago, Boxcar said:

In terms of touchy fanbases, I'd go:

 

1. Chieves

2. Bills

3. Ravens

 

The first two at least make sense. The Bills and Chieves have been crap for decades, mostly. They now have experienced wild success and want to squash any questions of legitimacy. The Ravens have been a very good team for as long as I can remember.

 

Oh, and on that topic, go watch Nick Wright's response to Jesse Palmer declaring JA to be the most physically gifted QB of all time. The answer: obviously Patrick Mahomes.

 

Does he even know what is being argued? Drew Brees and Tom Brady are two all time greats, but no one is going to say either is a top tier physical specimen. It's not a requirement for a QB if you can make up for it in other ways. Right now, Mahomes is better (though I honestly think Josh will surpass him this year) but that doesn't mean that he's as physically gifted as Allen.

 

i saw it. he threw an even bigger hissy fit a month later when Cossell echoed the same thing in his MMQB article and they brought it up on the show. Wrights just...... the worst.

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree there is some of that. I think it didn't occur against Mahomes because he was great day 1. To casual observers it looked like Diggs arrived and Allen took off. Those of us who watch this team know that Josh's progress, which not linear, has been more gradual over the first two years. He was already a much better QB at the end of year 2 than he was at the start of year 1. I suspect if Josh backs it up with another outstanding year, and there is no reason to believe that he won't, some of those more stubborn critics will fall away.  

And everyone conveniently forgets Hill, Kelce, Hunt, and Reid were there from day 1..... Also his day 1 was actually year 2. Allens day 1 was being thrust into a s**t storm of an offense in the 2nd half of week 1 during his rookie year. All while having "weapons" like the 270 pound Kelvin "where am i supposed to line up" Benjiman, Andre "never made another roster" holmes, and Zay "at least i help KB line up in the right place" Jones.

 

Peoples takes on Allen were so hot coming out the draft that they now need to fall back on something. So its the weapons argument. All while completely disregarding the situation Mahomes stepped into it. Its absolutely absurd.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Stank_Nasty

[starrymessenger]

oh if only Lamar had a cannon hanging from his right shoulder…yeah but he doesn’t and never will. Case closed. Its really that simple (and obviously I like Lamar a lot and never for a moment thought that he is not a NFL QB). 

Josh makes Diggs and everybody else so much better. If they are big talents already he makes them as good as possibly they can be. Thats why WRs would want to play for the Bills. Thats why I think even an aging star like E.Sanders could break !000 yards this year (esp if Beas is a no show).

Everything we’ve heard about Josh getting even better is absolutely true IMO. As good as he is now he is clearly still ascending. Its getting to the point where there are no weaknesses in his game and no gameplan to contain him.

 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

And everyone conveniently forgets Hill, Kelce, Hunt, and Reid were there from day 1..... Also his day 1 was actually year 2. Allens day 1 was being thrust into a s**t storm of an offense in the 2nd half of week 1 during his rookie year. All while having "weapons" like the 270 pound Kelvin "where am i supposed to line up" Benjiman, Andre "never made another roster" holmes, and Zay "at least i help KB line up in the right place" Jones.

 

Peoples takes on Allen were so hot coming out the draft that they now need to fall back on something. So its the weapons argument. All while completely disregarding the situation Mahomes stepped into it. Its absolutely absurd.

 

I agree but it means they don't have "bad Pat" memories like they have "bad Josh" memories. The old phrase about you only getting one chance to make a first impression applies here. Eventually Josh will put it beyond doubt, but I expect there to be some slower movers.

[Jerome007]

Moot point. TEAM sport. Daboll's gameplan, the OLine, other WRs, and on and on. May they continue to rack up numbers together,

 

Lamar will probably never play with a great WR unless HE changes team or they draft one. What top WR would like to go to a run heavy team with such a QB and OC? But as a TE I'd kill to play there ha ha

 

 

[Starr Almighty]

11 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

I was watching this video on YouTube, the latest installment in the Lamar vs Josh debate.  It's a Ravens' fans channel and the two guys debate a 49ers fan who believes Allen is the better QB.  The actual debate starts at the 9 minute mark if you're interested.  It doesn't take very long for everyone's favorite Lamar excuse to come up, if only Lamar had Stefon Diggs...

 

How many times have you heard it in the media, if only Lamar had Diggs?  What these Ravens' fans and media pundits don't get is that you can just as easily say that without Josh Allen, Diggs is not an elite WR in 2020.  It's obvious that Allen and Diggs both benefited from having the other on the field, you just never hear people talk about how Allen lifted up Diggs, it's always the other way around.

 

Let's look at some Stefon Diggs' career stats.

 

Average Catch Percentage

5 seasons in Minn;    68.4%

1 season in Buff;        76.5%

 

What can possibly explain this 8.1% jump in Diggs' catch percentage over his career average?  Did he suddenly develop better hands? Or could it be that Allen was putting the ball right where Diggs needed it to be?  I don't remember a lot of circus catches from Diggs last season.  Allen just made great throws that gave Diggs a chance to make the catch.  Diggs would make his break and the ball was there.  Seems like Diggs really benefitted from a lot of accurate passes last year.

 

Receptions     NFL Rank

2015;    52           #61

2016;    84           #16

2017;    64           #30

2018;    102          #11

2019;    63           #43

2020:   127            #1

 

Diggs was not a perennial hundred reception receiver.   He broke 100 catches one season and never came close the other four.  His total of 127 receptions obliterates his best season in 2018.  Diggs must have had a QB who trusted him and fed him the ball constantly.  He had a QB who fed him the ball so much that Diggs finished first in receptions.  The competition wasn't even close, Diggs beat Davante Adams and DeAndre Hopkins by a dozen receptions each.  

 

Rec Yardage   NFL Rank

2015;    720         #52

2016;    903         #34

2017;    849         #25

2018;   1,021        #20

2019;   1,131         #17

2020;  1,535         #1

 

Same thing here.  Look at that jump with Allen throwing Diggs the ball.  He surpassed his best season in yardage by over 400 yards with Allen, and had finished no higher than 17th in receiving yards before playing with Josh Allen.   

 

People also seem to forget that Beasley had a career year last year with Allen throwing him the ball.  After nine seasons in the League, Beasley set career highs in completions and receiving yards.  Maybe it was Diggs throwing Beasley the ball.

 

I've yet to hear one pundit say that Stefon Diggs and Cole Beasley were the beneficiaries of the best quarterback play of their careers.  It's always the other way around, Diggs and Beasley made Allen.  It's a lazy opinion.  After a combined 15 years in the League, both Diggs and Beasley had career years in 2020.  Did Diggs and Beasley help Allen?  Absolutely.  But not as much as Josh Allen helped them. 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

I was watching this video on YouTube, the latest installment in the Lamar vs Josh debate.  It's a Ravens' fans channel and the two guys debate a 49ers fan who believes Allen is the better QB.  The actual debate starts at the 9 minute mark if you're interested.  It doesn't take very long for everyone's favorite Lamar excuse to come up, if only Lamar had Stefon Diggs...

 

How many times have you heard it in the media, if only Lamar had Diggs?  What these Ravens' fans and media pundits don't get is that you can just as easily say that without Josh Allen, Diggs is not an elite WR in 2020.  It's obvious that Allen and Diggs both benefited from having the other on the field, you just never hear people talk about how Allen lifted up Diggs, it's always the other way around.

 

Let's look at some Stefon Diggs' career stats.

 

Average Catch Percentage

5 seasons in Minn;    68.4%

1 season in Buff;        76.5%

 

What can possibly explain this 8.1% jump in Diggs' catch percentage over his career average?  Did he suddenly develop better hands? Or could it be that Allen was putting the ball right where Diggs needed it to be?  I don't remember a lot of circus catches from Diggs last season.  Allen just made great throws that gave Diggs a chance to make the catch.  Diggs would make his break and the ball was there.  Seems like Diggs really benefitted from a lot of accurate passes last year.

 

Receptions     NFL Rank

2015;    52           #61

2016;    84           #16

2017;    64           #30

2018;    102          #11

2019;    63           #43

2020:   127            #1

 

Diggs was not a perennial hundred reception receiver.   He broke 100 catches one season and never came close the other four.  His total of 127 receptions obliterates his best season in 2018.  Diggs must have had a QB who trusted him and fed him the ball constantly.  He had a QB who fed him the ball so much that Diggs finished first in receptions.  The competition wasn't even close, Diggs beat Davante Adams and DeAndre Hopkins by a dozen receptions each.  

 

Rec Yardage   NFL Rank

2015;    720         #52

2016;    903         #34

2017;    849         #25

2018;   1,021        #20

2019;   1,131         #17

2020;  1,535         #1

 

Same thing here.  Look at that jump with Allen throwing Diggs the ball.  He surpassed his best season in yardage by over 400 yards with Allen, and had finished no higher than 17th in receiving yards before playing with Josh Allen.   

 

People also seem to forget that Beasley had a career year last year with Allen throwing him the ball.  After nine seasons in the League, Beasley set career highs in completions and receiving yards.  Maybe it was Diggs throwing Beasley the ball.

 

I've yet to hear one pundit say that Stefon Diggs and Cole Beasley were the beneficiaries of the best quarterback play of their careers.  It's always the other way around, Diggs and Beasley made Allen.  It's a lazy opinion.  After a combined 15 years in the League, both Diggs and Beasley had career years in 2020.  Did Diggs and Beasley help Allen?  Absolutely.  But not as much as Josh Allen helped them. 

 

 

While I agree they both helped eachother out, the stats being head and shoulders above for Diggs is easily explained...

2015 Teddy Bridgewater 

2016 Sam Bradford (15) / Shaun Hill 

2017 Case Keenum (14) / Sam Bradford

2018 Kirk Cousins 

2019 Kirk Cousins (15) / Sean Mannion 

2020 Kirk Cousins (16)

 

I would say Diggs is an amazing player posting those stats with these guys. Once Diggs played with a QB worth a damn the production reflected it.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Starr Almighty

[Virgil]

It’s funny as I literally had this exact debate this past weekend.  
 

My answer is, all of the above.  It’s Allen, Diggs, with Beasley and Daboll together for a perfect storm.  They all elevated because of each other and I believe became that talent permanently going forward.  

[P Riv]

9 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Moot point. TEAM sport. Daboll's gameplan, the OLine, other WRs, and on and on. May they continue to rack up numbers together,

 

 

Exactly, its a somewhat delicate situation when you get all of the right people in the right scheme and reach a certain balance of talent.  There's a dynamic that develops when you get all the right chess pieces.  I think if the run game develops we'll see a drop if the passing game too, buts that's actually a good thing.

[Inigo Montoya]

45 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Moot point. TEAM sport. Daboll's gameplan, the OLine, other WRs, and on and on. May they continue to rack up numbers together,

 

Lamar will probably never play with a great WR unless HE changes team or they draft one. What top WR would like to go to a run heavy team with such a QB and OC? But as a TE I'd kill to play there ha ha

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Virgil said:

It’s funny as I literally had this exact debate this past weekend.  
 

My answer is, all of the above.  It’s Allen, Diggs, with Beasley and Daboll together for a perfect storm.  They all elevated because of each other and I believe became that talent permanently going forward.  

 

13 minutes ago, P Riv said:

 

Exactly, its a somewhat delicate situation when you get all of the right people in the right scheme and reach a certain balance of talent.  There's a dynamic that develops when you get all the right chess pieces.  I think if the run game develops we'll see a drop if the passing game too, buts that's actually a good thing.

 

 

I agree with all of you and the other posters who share this opinion.  It's a combination of all of these talented people coming together and making each other better.  Diggs is a special talent and my OP is not meant to diminish how great Diggs was last year.

 

My OP was to point out that for many the narrative is that Josh Allen is good because others made him good.  Allen was a nobody until Diggs arrived.  I don't buy that at all.  No one seems to acknowledge that Allen elevated John Brown, and then Beasley, and then Diggs, leading all of them to career years.  What was the common denominator for those three receivers?  The guy who was throwing them the ball.  That is the missing narrative out there.

 

To circle back to the original Lamar vs Allen debate, does Lamar look better with Diggs in a Ravens uniform?  Probably.  Does Diggs finish first in the League in receptions and receiving yards with Lamar throwing him the ball?   Not a chance in hell.