Inigo Montoya Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 (edited) I was watching this video on YouTube, the latest installment in the Lamar vs Josh debate. It's a Ravens' fans channel and the two guys debate a 49ers fan who believes Allen is the better QB. The actual debate starts at the 9 minute mark if you're interested. It doesn't take very long for everyone's favorite Lamar excuse to come up, if only Lamar had Stefon Diggs... How many times have you heard it in the media, if only Lamar had Diggs? What these Ravens' fans and media pundits don't get is that you can just as easily say that without Josh Allen, Diggs is not an elite WR in 2020. It's obvious that Allen and Diggs both benefited from having the other on the field, you just never hear people talk about how Allen lifted up Diggs, it's always the other way around. Let's look at some Stefon Diggs' career stats. Average Catch Percentage 5 seasons in Minn; 68.4% 1 season in Buff; 76.5% What can possibly explain this 8.1% jump in Diggs' catch percentage over his career average? Did he suddenly develop better hands? Or could it be that Allen was putting the ball right where Diggs needed it to be? I don't remember a lot of circus catches from Diggs last season. Allen just made great throws that gave Diggs a chance to make the catch. Diggs would make his break and the ball was there. Seems like Diggs really benefitted from a lot of accurate passes last year. Receptions NFL Rank 2015; 52 #61 2016; 84 #16 2017; 64 #30 2018; 102 #11 2019; 63 #43 2020: 127 #1 Diggs was not a perennial hundred reception receiver. He broke 100 catches one season and never came close the other four. His total of 127 receptions obliterates his best season in 2018. Diggs must have had a QB who trusted him and fed him the ball constantly. He had a QB who fed him the ball so much that Diggs finished first in receptions. The competition wasn't even close, Diggs beat Davante Adams and DeAndre Hopkins by a dozen receptions each. Rec Yardage NFL Rank 2015; 720 #52 2016; 903 #34 2017; 849 #25 2018; 1,021 #20 2019; 1,131 #17 2020; 1,535 #1 Same thing here. Look at that jump with Allen throwing Diggs the ball. He surpassed his best season in yardage by over 400 yards with Allen, and had finished no higher than 17th in receiving yards before playing with Josh Allen. People also seem to forget that Beasley had a career year last year with Allen throwing him the ball. After nine seasons in the League, Beasley set career highs in completions and receiving yards. Maybe it was Diggs throwing Beasley the ball. I've yet to hear one pundit say that Stefon Diggs and Cole Beasley were the beneficiaries of the best quarterback play of their careers. It's always the other way around, Diggs and Beasley made Allen. It's a lazy opinion. After a combined 15 years in the League, both Diggs and Beasley had career years in 2020. Did Diggs and Beasley help Allen? Absolutely. But not as much as Josh Allen helped them. Edited July 26, 2021 by Inigo Montoya 4 3 4 6
Buffalo716 Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 (edited) It takes two to tango. Always has always will Josh makes a lot of people look good though.. He's an all pro, Superstar... So I'm confident he would be really good without diggs.. we would just have to be a different type of offense Diggs and Beasley absolutely played with the best quarterback they ever have in their life last season Edited July 26, 2021 by Buffalo716 5 1
716 Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 I'm not a big poster online period, however, when ever I see this "chicken vs the egg" debate online, I always feel compelled to note that John Brown, Cole Beasley & Stefon Diggs ALL had career/career-ish years once teamed up with JA17. Of course we can quibble about a TD for JB, and yards for CB, but these guys both seemed to flourish once they arrived in B-Lo. I could argue CB beneffited from JB being hurt and SD's arrival? Agreed, it takes two to tango. Diggs absolutely helped Josh have an amazing season, but for me, its just hard to ignore the results those 3 have had, once coming to Buffalo. 4
Rochesterfan Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 3 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said: I was watching this video on YouTube, the latest installment in the Lamar vs Josh debate. It's a Ravens' fans channel and the two guys debate a 49ers fan who believes Allen is the better QB. The actual debate starts at the 9 minute mark if you're interested. It doesn't take very long for everyone's favorite Lamar excuse to come up, if only Lamar had Stefon Diggs... How many times have you heard it in the media, if only Lamar had Diggs? What these Ravens' fans and media pundits don't get is that you can just as easily say that without Josh Allen, Diggs is not an elite WR in 2020. It's obvious that Allen and Diggs both benefited from having the other on the field, you just never hear people talk about how Allen lifted up Diggs, it's always the other way around. Let's look at some Stefon Diggs' career stats. Average Catch Percentage 5 seasons in Minn; 68.4% 1 season in Buff; 76.5% What can possibly explain this 8.1% jump in Diggs' catch percentage over his career average? Did he suddenly develop better hands? Or could it be that Allen was putting the ball right where Diggs needed it to be? I don't remember a lot of circus catches from Diggs last season. Allen just made great throws that gave Diggs a chance to make the catch. Diggs would make his break and the ball was there. Seems like Diggs really benefitted from a lot of accurate passes last year. Receptions NFL Rank 2015; 52 #61 2016; 84 #16 2017; 64 #30 2018; 102 #11 2019; 63 #43 2020: 127 #1 Diggs was not a perennial hundred reception receiver. He broke 100 catches one season and never came close the other four. His total of 127 receptions obliterates his best season in 2018. Diggs must have had a QB who trusted him and fed him the ball constantly. He had a QB who fed him the ball so much that Diggs finished first in receptions. The competition wasn't even close, Diggs beat Davante Adams and DeAndre Hopkins by a dozen receptions each. Rec Yardage NFL Rank 2015; 720 #52 2016; 903 #34 2017; 849 #25 2018; 1,021 #20 2019; 1,131 #17 2020; 1,535 #1 Same thing here. Look at that jump with Allen throwing Diggs the ball. He surpassed his best season in yardage by over 400 yards with Allen, and had finished no higher than 17th in receiving yards before playing with Josh Allen. People also seem to forget that Beasley had a career year last year with Allen throwing him the ball. After nine seasons in the League, Beasley set career highs in completions and receiving yards. Maybe it was Diggs throwing Beasley the ball. I've yet to hear one pundit say that Stefon Diggs and Cole Beasley were the beneficiaries of the best quarterback play of their careers. It's always the other way around, Diggs and Beasley made Allen. It's a lazy opinion. After a combined 15 years in the League, both Diggs and Beasley had career years in 2020. Did Diggs and Beasley help Allen? Absolutely. But not as much as Josh Allen helped them. Take it 1 step further - go back to 2019 - both Cole and John Brown as the new #1 and #2 had their best years in the NFL with Allen throwing them the ball. So if you combine 2019 and 2020 - 3 different WRs have career years with Allen and 1 WR had a career year in 2019 and improved it in 2020. When over the course of multiple years - different WRs seem to “break out” and have the best years of their careers - it is the QB and OC making them better - not the other way around. Diggs was a significantly better target for Josh than anything he had in the past, but Diggs did not make Josh - Josh has made the WRs look better each year and his talent afforded Diggs the opportunity to have the best year of his career. Now this year should be interesting because you have 3 WRs to feed and all 3 can get open and I don’t think all 3 can put up career years, but my guess is they will all put up big receiving numbers. 3
LeviF Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 Diggs is an elite talent. No doubt. But Allen is gonna make that dude the kind of money he never would have sniffed on 90% of the other teams in this league. Including the Ravens, whether that’s because of their offense, Lamar, or some combination of the two. 1
machine gun kelly Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said: I was watching this video on YouTube, the latest installment in the Lamar vs Josh debate. It's a Ravens' fans channel and the two guys debate a 49ers fan who believes Allen is the better QB. The actual debate starts at the 9 minute mark if you're interested. It doesn't take very long for everyone's favorite Lamar excuse to come up, if only Lamar had Stefon Diggs... How many times have you heard it in the media, if only Lamar had Diggs? What these Ravens' fans and media pundits don't get is that you can just as easily say that without Josh Allen, Diggs is not an elite WR in 2020. It's obvious that Allen and Diggs both benefited from having the other on the field, you just never hear people talk about how Allen lifted up Diggs, it's always the other way around. Let's look at some Stefon Diggs' career stats. Average Catch Percentage 5 seasons in Minn; 68.4% 1 season in Buff; 76.5% What can possibly explain this 8.1% jump in Diggs' catch percentage over his career average? Did he suddenly develop better hands? Or could it be that Allen was putting the ball right where Diggs needed it to be? I don't remember a lot of circus catches from Diggs last season. Allen just made great throws that gave Diggs a chance to make the catch. Diggs would make his break and the ball was there. Seems like Diggs really benefitted from a lot of accurate passes last year. Receptions NFL Rank 2015; 52 #61 2016; 84 #16 2017; 64 #30 2018; 102 #11 2019; 63 #43 2020: 127 #1 Diggs was not a perennial hundred reception receiver. He broke 100 catches one season and never came close the other four. His total of 127 receptions obliterates his best season in 2018. Diggs must have had a QB who trusted him and fed him the ball constantly. He had a QB who fed him the ball so much that Diggs finished first in receptions. The competition wasn't even close, Diggs beat Davante Adams and DeAndre Hopkins by a dozen receptions each. Rec Yardage NFL Rank 2015; 720 #52 2016; 903 #34 2017; 849 #25 2018; 1,021 #20 2019; 1,131 #17 2020; 1,535 #1 Same thing here. Look at that jump with Allen throwing Diggs the ball. He surpassed his best season in yardage by over 400 yards with Allen, and had finished no higher than 17th in receiving yards before playing with Josh Allen. People also seem to forget that Beasley had a career year last year with Allen throwing him the ball. After nine seasons in the League, Beasley set career highs in completions and receiving yards. Maybe it was Diggs throwing Beasley the ball. I've yet to hear one pundit say that Stefon Diggs and Cole Beasley were the beneficiaries of the best quarterback play of their careers. It's always the other way around, Diggs and Beasley made Allen. It's a lazy opinion. After a combined 15 years in the League, both Diggs and Beasley had career years in 2020. Did Diggs and Beasley help Allen? Absolutely. But not as much as Josh Allen helped them. As always Inigo, when you start a thread, you put a lot of work into it so thanks. I believe and if you listen to NFLR many of the pundits (I like this outlet as many if you know as many of the announcers seem to have better knowledge of teams in the NFL vs. ESPN where I swear they just know the headlines) the QB typically makes the WR, not the other way around. Now after listening to this pod cast, it’s ridiculous to compare these two. LJ just has difficulties throwing outside the hashes, and deep. JA excels in both areas. JA’s skills will maintain and probably continue to ascend. LJ is what you have now, and I’m skeptical he will improve even closely to what JA can do. Edited July 26, 2021 by machine gun kelly 1 1
GunnerBill Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 (edited) They were both elite in 2020. Is Josh better throwing to Diggs than throwing to John Brown? Sure. Diggs would elevate anyone cos he is always open, but it is always the Quarterback first and foremost for me. So while they were both elite and neither "made" the other, the more significant part was Josh Allen. It is always that way. EDIT: On the question posed at the end of the OP, without doubt it is the best Quarterbacking Diggs has ever had but it is also the most pass happy offense he has ever been in. Percentage wise the Bills were 60% pass, 40% run in 2020. Minnesota only did that once in Diggs's time there his second year in the league. Even then they had marginally fewer attempts than the Bills in 2020. The three years after that in Minnesota they were a balanced offense - 54/46 was their most pass happy year of those three, the other two were 51/49 (one in each direction). Diggs's last two years in Minnesota were pretty outstanding efforts statistically on such run heavy teams. His numbers and yards were up so significantly in 2020 for two reasons: 1. He played in a team that passed more and 2. He played with the best Quarterback he has ever played with. Edited July 26, 2021 by GunnerBill 2 1
Frat-Train Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 Both were fantastic! The argument I could imagine is Diggs was a beast Before Allen, whereas Allen shined WITH Diggs. Not my argument though. I think Allen makes the entire team better. Can’t wait for round 2! 1
Gugny Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 I just think it's cute that there are people on this planet who think Lamont is better than Josh Allen. Bless their little hearts. 1 4
eball Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 11 minutes ago, Gugny said: I just think it's cute that there are people on this planet who think Lamont is better than Josh Allen. Bless their little hearts. We are so friggin’ lucky Josh wound up a Bill. Can you imagine Allen on the Ravens? They’d be favorites to win the next 10 Super Bowls. 2 2
Boxcar Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 6 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said: I was watching this video on YouTube, the latest installment in the Lamar vs Josh debate. It's a Ravens' fans channel and the two guys debate a 49ers fan who believes Allen is the better QB. The actual debate starts at the 9 minute mark if you're interested. It doesn't take very long for everyone's favorite Lamar excuse to come up, if only Lamar had Stefon Diggs... How many times have you heard it in the media, if only Lamar had Diggs? What these Ravens' fans and media pundits don't get is that you can just as easily say that without Josh Allen, Diggs is not an elite WR in 2020. It's obvious that Allen and Diggs both benefited from having the other on the field, you just never hear people talk about how Allen lifted up Diggs, it's always the other way around. Let's look at some Stefon Diggs' career stats. Average Catch Percentage 5 seasons in Minn; 68.4% 1 season in Buff; 76.5% What can possibly explain this 8.1% jump in Diggs' catch percentage over his career average? Did he suddenly develop better hands? Or could it be that Allen was putting the ball right where Diggs needed it to be? I don't remember a lot of circus catches from Diggs last season. Allen just made great throws that gave Diggs a chance to make the catch. Diggs would make his break and the ball was there. Seems like Diggs really benefitted from a lot of accurate passes last year. Receptions NFL Rank 2015; 52 #61 2016; 84 #16 2017; 64 #30 2018; 102 #11 2019; 63 #43 2020: 127 #1 Diggs was not a perennial hundred reception receiver. He broke 100 catches one season and never came close the other four. His total of 127 receptions obliterates his best season in 2018. Diggs must have had a QB who trusted him and fed him the ball constantly. He had a QB who fed him the ball so much that Diggs finished first in receptions. The competition wasn't even close, Diggs beat Davante Adams and DeAndre Hopkins by a dozen receptions each. Rec Yardage NFL Rank 2015; 720 #52 2016; 903 #34 2017; 849 #25 2018; 1,021 #20 2019; 1,131 #17 2020; 1,535 #1 Same thing here. Look at that jump with Allen throwing Diggs the ball. He surpassed his best season in yardage by over 400 yards with Allen, and had finished no higher than 17th in receiving yards before playing with Josh Allen. People also seem to forget that Beasley had a career year last year with Allen throwing him the ball. After nine seasons in the League, Beasley set career highs in completions and receiving yards. Maybe it was Diggs throwing Beasley the ball. I've yet to hear one pundit say that Stefon Diggs and Cole Beasley were the beneficiaries of the best quarterback play of their careers. It's always the other way around, Diggs and Beasley made Allen. It's a lazy opinion. After a combined 15 years in the League, both Diggs and Beasley had career years in 2020. Did Diggs and Beasley help Allen? Absolutely. But not as much as Josh Allen helped them. The Orioles' existence already gives me reason to dislike Baltimore, and the Diggs excuse is so lame and lazy. Are we pretending that Mark Andrews and Hollywood Brown are absolute bottom of the league target options? Or is it, maybe, that Diggs would be completely wasted on the Ravens because Lamar can't throw for sh*t? Allen is the far better quarterback. The only people arguing this point are Raven fans and people who still haven't filled out their Josh Allen apology form. 1
ghostwriter Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 Ok I just nursed my first cup of coffee, so I’m sorry if this doesn’t make much sense, but then again my posts hardly ever make sense so you may not spot the difference. ☕️☕️ Chicken or egg? Tell me how Brady did without Mike Evans, Gronk and Chris Godwin in his final year with the Patriots? Sure, QB is the most important position in football, sure a great QB will make do with average receivers, but it takes good to great WRs even for a QB as talented as Brady to win the Super Bowl and to go deep in the playoffs. Same goes for Josh, whom I feel can get us multiple Super Bowl titles, but without a good team around him, he likely wouldn’t even get one. Every team needs playmakers/elite players outside of the QB position to be successful, but in the salary cap era you must choose who you pay, who your star players are and who you build around and who you let go. Beane must determine who his untouchable players are, which will likely be players like Allen, Diggs and TreDavious White. Overpaying for good players can hamstring this franchise and can prohibit us from winning a Super Bowl and how deep we go in the playoffs. How many people do we pay top dollar to? How many meat and potatoes players do we sign to reasonable deals? This is the balance Beane must strike. 2
Ya Digg? Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 How much more can Baltimore invest into getting Lamar weapons?? They have used high draft picks on receivers (including 2 first round picks), they have built a good line, they have invested in running backs and tight ends, and yet people still say “if only Lamar had guys to throw to.” Meanwhile in Buffalo Josh just happens to be able to give guys career years and somehow this is a debate
Stank_Nasty Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 Is it fair to say that Ravens fans have overtaken us insecure Bills fans as the most sensitive fan base in the league? 1
Boxcar Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 3 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: Is it fair to say that Ravens fans have overtaken us insecure Bills fans as the most sensitive fan base in the league? Say that Arrowhead isn't the loudest stadium that has ever existed on the internet and report back with your findings.
Stank_Nasty Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 Just now, Boxcar said: Say that Arrowhead isn't the loudest stadium that has ever existed on the internet and report back with your findings. Oh I know they’re touchy too. If you suggest there are Qb’s that are, even just for a time, playing at their qb’s level or might be capable of some of the same things mahomes does, they go into full on toddler temper tantrum mode.
Boxcar Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: Oh I know they’re touchy too. If you suggest there are Qb’s that are, even just for a time, playing at their qb’s level or might be capable of some of the same things mahomes does, they go into full on toddler temper tantrum mode. In terms of touchy fanbases, I'd go: 1. Chieves 2. Bills 3. Ravens The first two at least make sense. The Bills and Chieves have been crap for decades, mostly. They now have experienced wild success and want to squash any questions of legitimacy. The Ravens have been a very good team for as long as I can remember. Oh, and on that topic, go watch Nick Wright's response to Jesse Palmer declaring JA to be the most physically gifted QB of all time. The answer: obviously Patrick Mahomes. Does he even know what is being argued? Drew Brees and Tom Brady are two all time greats, but no one is going to say either is a top tier physical specimen. It's not a requirement for a QB if you can make up for it in other ways. Right now, Mahomes is better (though I honestly think Josh will surpass him this year) but that doesn't mean that he's as physically gifted as Allen. Edited July 26, 2021 by Boxcar
GunnerBill Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said: How much more can Baltimore invest into getting Lamar weapons?? They have used high draft picks on receivers (including 2 first round picks), they have built a good line, they have invested in running backs and tight ends, and yet people still say “if only Lamar had guys to throw to.” Meanwhile in Buffalo Josh just happens to be able to give guys career years and somehow this is a debate You are not turning Lamar Jackson into a great passer, whatever you do. They could, however, make better picks at receiver... I do think Bateman is a better fit there. I never liked the Hollywood Brown pick for them it was an odd fit. Edited July 26, 2021 by GunnerBill 1 2
US Egg Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 Compare Jackson to Allen? An apples to oranges debate. Josh being the apple, of course. 😁
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