The_Ripster Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: 1) no one, especially an employer,can listen to “all the wants and needs” of their employees. That’s not an “end goal” that’s just a fact. Anyone who has ever led or supervised people knows this, it isn’t news. The end goal of a business is to deliver product, not please employees; most businesses try to meet employee needs because “needs” are what you require to do your job. Most businesses accommodate some wants as long as it doesn’t interfere with product because high-morale employees do better work. But Fergoshsakes, anyone who thinks a union can listen to “all the wants and needs” of the employees they represent, much less negotiate for that, is air dreaming. Chill, you're blowing out of proportion my usage of the word "all". The issue at hand was reduced to 2 specific issues. Vaccines and recreational drug use. As for the NFL being a business. I can't think of any other business in the USA fining their employees $10,000+ for not wearing a mask, regardless of income. And one could argue it's the NFL's patrons, in fact, who are the to be high-morale benefactor's from this harsh outcome and not the NFL's employee's (players). 2
ColoradoBills Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, The_Ripster said: As for the NFL being a business. I can't think of any other business in the USA fining their employees $10,000+ for not wearing a mask, regardless of income. I recently retired from a business that terminated employees for not wearing a mask. The NFLPA has bargained so that doesn't happen to it's members. Instead it bargained for the rules they now have. You can disagree with that all you want but it won't change it. 1 1
The_Ripster Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said: I recently retired from a business that terminated employees for not wearing a mask. The NFLPA has bargained so that doesn't happen to it's members. Instead it bargained for the rules they now have. You can disagree with that all you want but it won't change it. Totally agree with you. 1
Rochesterfan Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, The_Ripster said: Chill, you're blowing out of proportion my usage of the word "all". The issue at hand was reduced to 2 specific issues. Vaccines and recreational drug use. As for the NFL being a business. I can't think of any other business in the USA fining their employees $10,000+ for not wearing a mask, regardless of income. And one could argue it's the NFL's patrons, in fact, who are the to be high-morale benefactor's from this harsh outcome and not the NFL's employee's (players). We suspend and fire employees for not wearing masks if not vaccinated. Never was comparing vaccines and drug use - just the use of fines and suspensions for different things that NFLPA agreed to and various players disagree with. 1 1
The_Ripster Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: We suspend and fire employees for not wearing masks if not vaccinated. Never was comparing vaccines and drug use - just the use of fines and suspensions for different things that NFLPA agreed to and various players disagree with. You did though. You could've said 'skipping mandatory minicamp' or something which disregards the validity of their ability to play in good health. You chose to use marijuana/recreational drugs for your comparison of fines and suspensions, which is problematic, in my opinion.
TBBills Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 33 minutes ago, The_Ripster said: Chill, you're blowing out of proportion my usage of the word "all". The issue at hand was reduced to 2 specific issues. Vaccines and recreational drug use. As for the NFL being a business. I can't think of any other business in the USA fining their employees $10,000+ for not wearing a mask, regardless of income. And one could argue it's the NFL's patrons, in fact, who are the to be high-morale benefactor's from this harsh outcome and not the NFL's employee's (players). My job would fire you if you didn't wear a mask while not vaccinated. I had to get vaccinated if I wanted to stop wearing a mask for my job. I did it without problem... Mostly b.c I am not ignorant. Sad to see these millionaires threaten to retire just b.c of ignorance, but the NFL isn't always about brains, it's about talent. They can retire and live comfortably, I would get fired and not be able to afford my bills. 1
Rochesterfan Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, The_Ripster said: You did though. You could've said 'skipping mandatory minicamp' or something which disregards the validity of their ability to play in good health. You chose to use marijuana/recreational drugs for your comparison of fines and suspensions, which is problematic, in my opinion. Players are not suspended for skipping mandatory minicamp. Players also had most fines rescinded for mandatory minicamps in the past - so not a good equivalent. But if that works for you - fine - is it insane that the NFL fines players for missing mandatory minicamps? My goodness. 12 minutes ago, The_Ripster said: You chose to use marijuana/recreational drugs for your comparison of fines and suspensions, which is problematic, in my opinion. This statement is just idiotic. You stated the fines and suspensions were insane and I gave you an example of another situation where some players disagree with the agreement and the NFL has fines and suspensions in place. 1
The_Ripster Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Players are not suspended for skipping mandatory minicamp. Players also had most fines rescinded for mandatory minicamps in the past - so not a good equivalent. But if that works for you - fine - is it insane that the NFL fines players for missing mandatory minicamps? My goodness. That is not insane at all. They should be with their teams if they are healthy and happy with their contracts. Edited July 25, 2021 by The_Ripster 1
Rochesterfan Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, The_Ripster said: Not at all! They should be with their teams if they are healthy and happy with their contracts. They can be with their team if they are healthy and happy - they just need to follow protocols. If they can’t follow protocols- then they get in trouble.
Rochesterfan Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 Just now, The_Ripster said: I will repeat what I said earlier, which is we know for a fact vaccinated players can still contract and spread the virus. Imagine the league issuing fines against a healthy COVID-free 'unvaccinated' player for not wearing a mask while 'vaccinated' players are simultaneously spreading the virus amongst each other without penalty. That seems like an unethical and immoral tactic and I can understand why players would be frustrated with the NFLPA. They are less of a threat to each other than they are to older people like myself and if I'm already protected then what's the big deal? Yep - and I will say again - this is what the NFLPA agreed to. They wanted as much freedom as possible and to get there they left the protocols in place for unvaccinated players.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 42 minutes ago, The_Ripster said: That is not insane at all. They should be with their teams if they are healthy and happy with their contracts. Not following your point at all here. Injured players can report to mandatory minicamp. They receive treatment for their injuries and rehab protocols to follow over the months between minicamp and training camp. Wealthy vets may prefer their own guys, but don’t overlook the benefit of team-provided treatment and rehab to young guys just trying to make a team. Are you saying that it’s OK for players unhappy with their contracts to miss mandatory minicamp and they shouldn’t be fined? Or what point are you trying to make? 1
The_Ripster Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Not following your point at all here. Injured players can report to mandatory minicamp. They receive treatment for their injuries and rehab protocols to follow over the months between minicamp and training camp. Wealthy vets may prefer their own guys, but don’t overlook the benefit of team-provided treatment and rehab to young guys just trying to make a team. Are you saying that it’s OK for players unhappy with their contracts to miss mandatory minicamp and they shouldn’t be fined? Or what point are you trying to make? I feel like you are nitpicking my posts and reaching hard. Of course injured players and all contractually obligated players should be at mandatory team events. My point is unvaccinated players are just as healthy and ready to play as vaccinated players. Stigmatizing them is not winning football.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 8 minutes ago, The_Ripster said: I feel like you are nitpicking my posts and reaching hard. Of course injured players and all contractually obligated players should be at mandatory team events. My point is unvaccinated players are just as healthy and ready to play as vaccinated players. Stigmatizing them is not winning football. Then why put that out there? My rebuttal to your point is that the current health status of players is not the reason for the Covid protocols, it’s maintaining the health status and availability of players. Whether the NFL/NFLPA current protocols will do that effectively may be open to question, but that’s the rationale. No one is “stigmatizing” players by asking them to follow health protocols that account for the different risk to health status and availability due to vaccination. 2 1 2
T master Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 I drive a 45' Prevost bus/entertainer coach with a 16' trailer to haul our gear all around the US to gigs because this vehicle has DOT numbers on the vehicle (and we are for hire) i have to have a Class A CDL & go through a bunch of testing (both written & driving) in order to drive this vehicle . But any one of you that has the kind of money to buy a Prevost bus could drive this vehicle toting a trailer or a vehicle behind it down the road registered as camper with a every day normal class E license (i believe) and have little to no testing or even experience/training to drive this vehicle the same one i drive which i need a Class A CDL because it has DOT numbers on it and it be perfectly legal in most states and the feds are good with it too. Too add to this if I drive this vehicle with a trailer that is registered for 10k lbs or under i only need a Class B CDL but if it's registered for 12k lbs or over you need a Class A CDL even though both trailers are the exact same in length just different axle weight ratio go figure . 🤔 Seems to be a lot of similarities in the laying out of the rules with in the NFL and Federal standards .
Thurman#1 Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 (edited) On 7/25/2021 at 3:50 PM, The_Ripster said: It is insane because they're employed by a quasi-monopoly. We can jest about the players earning so much that it is insignificant or they should "suck it up", yet the fact still remains they are employed by a quasi-monopoly and have limited employment opportunities outside the NFL. They most likely will be out of work indefinitely if they choose to exercise their God given right of free will which is very different from most of the population. If you were part of a labor union and disagreed with the approach of the union issuing fines against you for not wanting to subject your body to a medical procedure to continue with employment, you could always A) start your own private business or B) search for a union who is not requesting that demand. Options they don't really have. Secondly, we know for a fact vaccinated players can still contract and spread the virus. Imagine the league issuing fines against a healthy COVID-free 'unvaccinated' player for not wearing a mask while 'vaccinated' players are simultaneously spreading the virus amongst each other without penalty. That seems like an unethical and immoral tactic and I can understand why players would be frustrated with the NFLPA. The whole "vaccinated people can spread it too," thing is a ridiculous argument. Yeah, they can spread it too, but unlike the unvaccinated, they have done the single best thing they can do to prevent themselves from spreading it. The unvaccinated have not. Yeah, the vaccinated can spread it, but they do so at much lower rates. They have done everything that can reasonably be done. So of course they can spread it without penalty, since they've done something making spreading it much more difficult. The unvaccinated have gone out of their way to avoid doing their best to prevent spreading it. So of course it's mroe reasonable for them to expect to get penalized. And yeah, I understand why some people would be frustrated with the NFLPA. Same reason my kid gets frustrated with me when I don't let her eat ice cream before dinner. She wants to do what she wants when she wants, and she wants to do it without consequences. Consequences are frustrating. If your argument is that working in a quasi-monopoly is so very tough, I would point you towards the salaries they earn when in that industry. No, they won't be able to earn the same money elsewhere but most of them can make a perfectly fine living elsewhere, as football coaches, insurance salesmen, whatever. Nobody's stopping them from earning a living. Actions have consequences. Edited July 26, 2021 by Thurman#1 1 1 1
Jerome007 Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 (edited) Has the NFLPA consulted with the players first before agreeing to all this? Did the players vote on this? As for the coaches, probably no one is "on their side" but their own lawyers might have a say in this Edited July 26, 2021 by Jerome007
Rc2catch Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 Rules are about to change for vaccinated staff it sounds. Frank Reich just got covid and he’s fully vaccinated and is now on quarantine. I think Shefter mentioned the league is discussing more frequent testing of vaccinated staff and players now. 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Jerome007 said: Has the NFLPA consulted with the players first before agreeing to all this? Did the players vote on this? That’s not how collective bargaining works AFAIK. The players have representatives from each team and a committee to study the issue. Every issue does not go to a vote of the membership and it probably shouldn’t.
ColoradoBills Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 52 minutes ago, Rc2catch said: Rules are about to change for vaccinated staff it sounds. Frank Reich just got covid and he’s fully vaccinated and is now on quarantine. I think Shefter mentioned the league is discussing more frequent testing of vaccinated staff and players now. It seems to me the new "variants" are causing this. I see this whole thing as being very fluid as the year progresses. The NFL is going to have to be adapting its rules just like the rest of the country.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 26, 2021 Posted July 26, 2021 55 minutes ago, Rc2catch said: Rules are about to change for vaccinated staff it sounds. Frank Reich just got covid and he’s fully vaccinated and is now on quarantine. I think Shefter mentioned the league is discussing more frequent testing of vaccinated staff and players now. This is going to have to happen. The testing cadence as it stands won’t enable a full season.
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