Buffalo Boy Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 11 hours ago, Warcodered said: If there is a big difference between them I'd say it's that Josh coming up through college and into the NFL was told he'd fail that he wasn't good enough he's been working to prove himself right the whole time. I heard Darnold do his first interview with the local guys in Charlotte and he sounded exactly like Rob Johnson. Zero energy, zero leadership, terrible. Darnold doesn’t have “ IT”. 1
Buffalo Boy Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 10 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: That Athletic article is pretty awesome. It's one of those worthy of subscription. I must say, though... it leaves me with one worry: Palmer is stressing the importance of "All 16 go into the ground" as an emphasis on using the ground as a way to take the load of your arm. Is it possible that this creates a higher likelihood of severe leg injuries? When you're on your toes, you're more nimble and loose. When your feet are planted flat and basically dug in, basic physics tell me bad things are a comin if someone attacks those legs... Kinetic chain. All energy comes up from the ground. Try throwing on your tip toes or falling backwards. Josh has relied on his Arm Talent which will wear out if used improperly. Instead of throwing with his arm he is being taught to load his whole body optimally. Leg injuries are always a fear but I’d say that the designed runs are a heck of a side more dangerous than proper throwing mechanics. 1
thenorthremembers Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 23 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said: There's a new article in The Athletic that details the high tech equipment Palmer is using to help his QB clients improve their biomechanics. The Athletic is a subscription service that I highly recommend. As an out of towner the only subscriptions I pay for are the Buffalo News and The Athletic. "Josh Allen is firing one perfect pass after another to a trio of receivers some 25 yards downfield. As the Bills star hones his mechanics, a few feet away private QB coach Jordan Palmer observes every little maneuver while two other young NFL quarterbacks loosen up. On the sideline there is almost a quarter-million dollars’ worth of high-tech equipment that is another part of Palmer’s unique quarterback ecosystem." https://theathletic.com/2719015/2021/07/23/this-technology-could-give-bills-qb-josh-allen-and-bengals-qb-joe-burrow-a-big-boost-in-their-nfl-careers/?source=freedailyemail As a Bills fan it's gratifying to see Josh continue to work hard to improve. How many QBs who finish second in the league MVP voting spend a portion of their next off season continuing to work with a private QB coach? It's this commitment to be the best and the work ethic to make it happen that gives me hope for the Buffalo Bills going forward. Contrast this with Baker Mayfields' attitude. Remember the end of season press conference in 2019 when asked by the press if he was going to hire a private QB tutor after his lackluster sophomore season, he answered that he wouldn't; “I do not need somebody to teach me how to do a three-step drop,” Mayfield said. “I can look at film and be critical of myself." https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/12/27/baker-mayfield-says-hell-be-working-hard-this-offseason-but-not-with-a-qb-tutor/ Baker has real talent and played great last year in his new system, but I think his ceiling is limited by his hubris. I think we've seen Mayfields' best ball already. I don't think that's the case with Josh Allen. Baker's ceiling isnt limitrled by hubris, its limited by his limited physical traits. Given the same work ethic Baker can never be Josh Allen. We cant pretend to know what Baker does during the offseason. We see Josh because his QB coach is all over the media. 1
Frat-Train Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 Just now, thenorthremembers said: Baker's ceiling isnt limitrled by hubris, its limited by his limited physical traits. Given the same work ethic Baker can never be Josh Allen. We cant pretend to know what Baker does during the offseason. We see Josh because his QB coach is all over the media. Baker’s ego seems to write checks his talent can’t cash. It kinda fires me up how much he’s gushed over, since he’s never had less than a stellar arsenal of talent around him, yet hasn’t (in my mind at least) lived up to expectations. He’s already being gushed over for the upcoming season, as well. Josh has generational talent, to your point. But that aside, his answer of “I don’t need to work on my craft” (I know, I generalized), really shows something about who he is. Josh is just the total package. So glad Beane ignored me when I screamed “Rosen”, at my TV. 1
ChronicAndKnuckles Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Oh I remember, because I absolutely hated Rosen and had him ranked last of the top 5 projected first rounders. People were losing their minds around d here defending Rosen. Living in LA, it was pretty well known what douche he was on and off the field, lack of passion for the game, and poor leadership skills. I had several friends who personally vouched for that having known him in some capacity. I had my rankings on draft night Baker, Allen, Darnold, Lamar……….and way down the list Rosen. And even though I had Darnold over Lamar, I preferred drafting Lamar over Darnold because I felt his ceiling was higher even though his floor was lower in terms of risk on how he would project to NFL. Even started a thread titled “My case for Lamar” if Baker and Allen were gone and we could stay put and not trade up and take Lamar. But once the news was clear Browns were gonna draft Baker, I was all in on the do anything to get Josh Allen train. And now he is already my favorite Bills player to watch play of all time. Him and Barry Sanders are my two favorites to watch play of all time because on any given play they can do something seemingly impossible or mind blowing like no other. Oddly, I actually remember that thread. That was a good call. Lamar gets a LOT of hate. Kind of reminds me of Mike Vick in a lot of ways, but with a much better team around him + less of a dirt bag. Anyways, when Vick went to Philly I feel he reached his full potential. The Ravens are at a crossroad. They need to open the offense up more and let Lamar do his thing even if it leads to some stupid decisions once in awhile. Running QB shelf lives are much shorter than your classic pocket guys. He needs to do what Josh Allen and Russell Wilson do and use his legs when necessary simultaneously keeping the defense honest. I liked Baker Mayfield because of his accuracy, the fact that he was a walk on, and his DGAF attitude. He seemed like a good fit for a small market team like the Bills or Browns. I didn’t (and still don’t) think he will ever become elite, but possibly a borderline top 10 guy that could bring stability to a team that lacked a good passer for a long time.
BADOLBILZ Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 15 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said: I do not get your point. How does an individual's quest to be great track with how an organization manages its business in a two decade run of excellence? Josh's back story is part of what makes him who he is. As he has often said "You bloom where you are planted." Family, Firebaugh, coaches at every level, Reedley, Wyoming, the Bill and his unique situation with Palmer. Surround yourself with people that believe in you wherever you can find them and bust your butt to give them the satisfaction of being right. There is not ONE way for football players or teams to become great. Many come from very rough circumstances and turn those adverse "non-nurturing" situations into the fuel for their greatness. The most significant player the Bills developed in the drought era was Jason Peters..........a future HOF'er and greatly respected teammate..........that dude didn't give his best at Arkansas..........got sabotaged by his college coaches in the draft process...........went undrafted to a terrible organization.........and still became an All Pro LT in almost no time after only being a TE in college. Your corporate/self-help strategy sounds great........works for some...........but you can get nurtured by a figurative pair of grass-fed DDD teets and it ain't gonna' keep you from being dominated on the field by a guy like Peters.
Alphadawg7 Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 18 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said: Oddly, I actually remember that thread. That was a good call. Lamar gets a LOT of hate. Kind of reminds me of Mike Vick in a lot of ways, but with a much better team around him + less of a dirt bag. Anyways, when Vick went to Philly I feel he reached his full potential. The Ravens are at a crossroad. They need to open the offense up more and let Lamar do his thing even if it leads to some stupid decisions once in awhile. Running QB shelf lives are much shorter than your classic pocket guys. He needs to do what Josh Allen and Russell Wilson do and use his legs when necessary simultaneously keeping the defense honest. I liked Baker Mayfield because of his accuracy, the fact that he was a walk on, and his DGAF attitude. He seemed like a good fit for a small market team like the Bills or Browns. I didn’t (and still don’t) think he will ever become elite, but possibly a borderline top 10 guy that could bring stability to a team that lacked a good passer for a long time. Good stuff all around in your reply here Baker coming out for me was the safest pick to be a quality QB in the NFL. I too felt his history fit well with a team like Bills or Browns. I was on the Baker train early in the CFB season and even pegged him as the Bills QB in the draft because back then he was more considered later first or second round by most, but kept moving up the boards during the season. Once the season was over, I was sure we couldn't get Baker without a big trade up. Allen was not one I was high on at all until the offseason, didnt see him play much. But I was intrigued by his buzz...then he won me over with his massive improvements in short work leading up to the draft and his insane combine. By the time the draft was approaching, he had over taken everyone but Baker who just felt more ready to play and had a lower floor even though Josh by far had the highest ceiling. Feel the same about Lamar...he took the league by storm with his unmatched athletic ability as a QB in the NFL right now, but at some point he needs to make the next big progression as a passer in order to have sustained success. Like you pointed out, the best version we saw of Vick as a more complete QB when he was in Philly and was much improved as a passer to go with his ability with his legs. Like I said during and after Lamars MVP season, the offense was too gimmicky to sustain that level of effectiveness. Once defenses caught up to it and figured out a better way to defend it, the offense and Lamar were going to be inconsistent. He needs to now take that step as a pocket passer, and if he does, he will be amongst the best in the league for the rest of his career. But that also is a function of the talent around him, so this will be an interesting year for Lamar as a passer given this is the best cast he has had yet in terms of targets to throw to. Wonder if Baltimore still runs the same style of offense or opens it up more to see what he can handle 1
Boxcar Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Frat-Train said: Baker’s ego seems to write checks his talent can’t cash. It kinda fires me up how much he’s gushed over, since he’s never had less than a stellar arsenal of talent around him, yet hasn’t (in my mind at least) lived up to expectations. He’s already being gushed over for the upcoming season, as well. Josh has generational talent, to your point. But that aside, his answer of “I don’t need to work on my craft” (I know, I generalized), really shows something about who he is. Josh is just the total package. So glad Beane ignored me when I screamed “Rosen”, at my TV. A large part of this thread should be a cautionary tale to NEVER attach yourself to any college prospect. If the paid pundits hardly ever get it right, why do fans go apepoop whenever the guy they want is passed on? I've experienced it on two boards in two completely different sports and I'll never really understand it. Even something like the Leatherwood pick, the worst you could say is that the Raiders should have traded down, but you can never know for sure. If a guy is your guy, you take him when the chance is there. Fan insight into the players is extremely limited. 5 hours ago, 4merper4mer said: My analysis in 2018 was not on the mark. It was something like this: Allen - A most likely losing lottery ticket who can’t throw. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off This wasn't off. You said he was a lottery ticket that was most likely to lose. This is correct, as it is with all raw prospects. Just happens that we hit the jackpot, a possibility you allowed in your assessment. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 4 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said: Kinetic chain. All energy comes up from the ground. Try throwing on your tip toes or falling backwards. Josh has relied on his Arm Talent which will wear out if used improperly. Instead of throwing with his arm he is being taught to load his whole body optimally. Leg injuries are always a fear but I’d say that the designed runs are a heck of a side more dangerous than proper throwing mechanics. I don't know if he'll change anything this year, but last year Josh was actually adding a little hop in his throwing motion after Aaron Rodgers: https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2020/12/bills-josh-allen-details-why-he-took-something-from-aaron-rodgers-throwing-mechanics.html And at times he'd actually jump and throw
Buffalo Boy Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't know if he'll change anything this year, but last year Josh was actually adding a little hop in his throwing motion after Aaron Rodgers: https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2020/12/bills-josh-allen-details-why-he-took-something-from-aaron-rodgers-throwing-mechanics.html And at times he'd actually jump and throw You sure he didn’t get it from Flutie😜 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 Just now, Buffalo Boy said: You sure he didn’t get it from Flutie😜 I'm going by who he said he studied, in the linked article
BigAl2526 Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 On 7/23/2021 at 3:53 PM, Utah John said: I am so glad to hear about this. Allen worked with Palmer the previous two offseasons and the results were as amazing as we could have hoped for. I wondered a little whether Allen would continue to bear down, working to maintain what he got right previously and to improve where possible. I'm delighted to hear that Allen is back at it. Allen's good friend is Sam Darnold, and Darnold also worked with Palmer in previous offseasons. But Darnold didn't put in the same effort. When Palmer corrected Allen about something, he'd work on that point over and over to make sure he got it right. Darnold would do it once and call it good. Darnold never really had a chance in New Jersey with their clown car coach, but he didn't do himself any favors either. Sam Darnold also had the handicap of having an idiot head coach. I don't think Darnold has had the same benefit of continuity as Josh Allen . Josh has had Brian Daboll's offense for 3 years. I'm not sure who Darnold's offensive coordinators have been, but he's had more than one. In comparison to Josh Allen, I do think Sam Darnold is more laid back while Josh Allen is driven. That may in part because Darnold was something of a "golden child" at USC and didn't to work as hard to have college success, while Josh Allen had to claw his way from high school to junior college to Wyoming. 1
just1hugheser Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 Nice post, totally agree Arent you glad I added something so profound to the thread?
JESSEFEFFER Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 18 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: There is not ONE way for football players or teams to become great. Many come from very rough circumstances and turn those adverse "non-nurturing" situations into the fuel for their greatness. The most significant player the Bills developed in the drought era was Jason Peters..........a future HOF'er and greatly respected teammate..........that dude didn't give his best at Arkansas..........got sabotaged by his college coaches in the draft process...........went undrafted to a terrible organization.........and still became an All Pro LT in almost no time after only being a TE in college. Your corporate/self-help strategy sounds great........works for some...........but you can get nurtured by a figurative pair of grass-fed DDD teets and it ain't gonna' keep you from being dominated on the field by a guy like Peters. I respond with this. Mouse McNally and Jason Peters
ChronicAndKnuckles Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 22 hours ago, thenorthremembers said: Baker's ceiling isnt limitrled by hubris, its limited by his limited physical traits. Given the same work ethic Baker can never be Josh Allen. We cant pretend to know what Baker does during the offseason. We see Josh because his QB coach is all over the media. Brady is also pretty limited physically. Incredibly slow, GOOD (not elite) arm, derpy looking frame, etc. None of that matters. Baker could never emulate Allen’s playing style or running ability, but I don’t agree w/ the whole “ceiling” thing w/ QBs. I’ve seen too many Brady’s and Montanas in my lifetime. Do I think Baker will ever become as good as Allen? Heck no. Just don’t write him off bc of his smaller frame & arm. What he lacks in those areas, he makes up for in accuracy which is THE most important thing along w/ leadership.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 20 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Feel the same about Lamar...he took the league by storm with his unmatched athletic ability as a QB in the NFL right now, but at some point he needs to make the next big progression as a passer in order to have sustained success. Like you pointed out, the best version we saw of Vick as a more complete QB when he was in Philly and was much improved as a passer to go with his ability with his legs. Like I said during and after Lamars MVP season, the offense was too gimmicky to sustain that level of effectiveness. Once defenses caught up to it and figured out a better way to defend it, the offense and Lamar were going to be inconsistent. He needs to now take that step as a pocket passer, and if he does, he will be amongst the best in the league for the rest of his career. But that also is a function of the talent around him, so this will be an interesting year for Lamar as a passer given this is the best cast he has had yet in terms of targets to throw to. Wonder if Baltimore still runs the same style of offense or opens it up more to see what he can handle There's a meta-question there, which is "can Baltimore, with Greg Roman as OC, run a more effective passing game?" Without the talent level of Lamar....these are the questions raised when Greg Roman was OC in Buffalo, "can they sustain that level of effectiveness without a better passing game?" Several of the more football-steeped commentators and several of the more football knowledgeable here critiqued the fundamental design of the passing game, saying what was happening downfield was out-of-sync with what was happening behind the LOS. With David Culley being marketed successfully to the Texans, the Ravens made the interesting move of giving their long time secondary coach, Chris Hewitt, the title of passing game coordinator. Leaving aside the question "if you give one guy the job two guys have been putting in full time hours doing, how does that work?", it's a good question what his passing game concepts will be like. He clearly oughtta know something about what elements of a passing game make it hard to defend. I'm not saying it's a bad move, I'm just saying from the coaching perspective, it's hard to predict the impact - is he gonna be kind of an apprentice, while Greg Roman takes on the real heavy lifting? And if so, has Roman developed since his days in Buffalo (people do grow and learn)?
BADOLBILZ Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 3 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said: I respond with this. Mouse McNally and Jason Peters Funny that the rest of the Bills OL under McNally kinda' sucked. Everyone has coaches........McNally was always a good OL coach but he also had one foot out the door when he was here. Calling the 2000-2010 era Bills a "nurturing environment" is hilariously wrong. As long as there has been football there have been people who become great despite not having your ideal conditions to do so. Suggesting otherwise is nutty. Josh Allen is and isn't an exception..........he is taking advantage of everything that he can to get better........that's awesome.........but he didn't have good instruction at the HS/JUCO/NCAA level........and that set his progress back............what he was able to do now is not possible for every NFL player that wants to rise to a great level.
RobbRiddick Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 On 7/24/2021 at 4:14 PM, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: As Allen will most likely get a contract soon, I took a stroll down memory lane in the Archives folder looking at the perceptions of Allen leading up to the draft. Let's just say he was treated like he had lepresy because most people didn't take the time to watch his film, learn his history, current environment, etc. They just took what the pundits said and ran with it. However to give credit, there were several posters who started to catch on and realize he was worth being drafted by the Bills. Now three years later these same fans are defending Allen tooth and nail using the same argument they neglected to see before. It's great to see and all part of being a Bills fan. I'm not sure about the pre-draft stuff because I don't follow college ball so I had no idea who would be good and who wouldn't. I do think that Bills fans caught on to Allen's potential pretty soon into his rookie year. Most of the 'experts' and fans of other teams say he was garbage his first two years and that even Bills fans wanted him gone, which is one of those lies that's just become an accepted truth now. I think most Bills fans fell in love with Allen when his ass went over Barr's head during the Vikings game. And you could see from the eye test that he had the It Factor. I do remember being worried about him during his rookie season before his injury, because he didn't seem to be improving at all, and in a lot of ways had regressed. Then he came back against the Jags and looked so much better. That elbow injury turned out to be a blessing in disguise. But it does make me laugh when I hear the whole 'Allen sucked his first two years' because it shows most fans of other teams only watch the highlights and box scores, then just base their opinions on what the deadbeats at ESPN think.
Alphadawg7 Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 40 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said: I'm not sure about the pre-draft stuff because I don't follow college ball so I had no idea who would be good and who wouldn't. I do think that Bills fans caught on to Allen's potential pretty soon into his rookie year. Most of the 'experts' and fans of other teams say he was garbage his first two years and that even Bills fans wanted him gone, which is one of those lies that's just become an accepted truth now. I think most Bills fans fell in love with Allen when his ass went over Barr's head during the Vikings game. And you could see from the eye test that he had the It Factor. I do remember being worried about him during his rookie season before his injury, because he didn't seem to be improving at all, and in a lot of ways had regressed. Then he came back against the Jags and looked so much better. That elbow injury turned out to be a blessing in disguise. But it does make me laugh when I hear the whole 'Allen sucked his first two years' because it shows most fans of other teams only watch the highlights and box scores, then just base their opinions on what the deadbeats at ESPN think. Oh totally agree. The big “wrong Josh” crowd here became believers once the games begun, especially the Vikings game and the final 6 weeks of the season. The vast majority of the melt down happened from draft night until camp. But once both Allen and Rosen hit the field, the wrong josh crowd started realizing they were wrong and converted to the Allen train pretty quickly with the bulk of the holdouts really coming around in the Vikings game. Few held on to the wrong Josh narrative a little longer, but by the end of the Vikings game most the people here were either ecstatic about Josh or at least cautiously optimistic.
Don Otreply Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 40 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said: I'm not sure about the pre-draft stuff because I don't follow college ball so I had no idea who would be good and who wouldn't. I do think that Bills fans caught on to Allen's potential pretty soon into his rookie year. Most of the 'experts' and fans of other teams say he was garbage his first two years and that even Bills fans wanted him gone, which is one of those lies that's just become an accepted truth now. I think most Bills fans fell in love with Allen when his ass went over Barr's head during the Vikings game. And you could see from the eye test that he had the It Factor. I do remember being worried about him during his rookie season before his injury, because he didn't seem to be improving at all, and in a lot of ways had regressed. Then he came back against the Jags and looked so much better. That elbow injury turned out to be a blessing in disguise. But it does make me laugh when I hear the whole 'Allen sucked his first two years' because it shows most fans of other teams only watch the highlights and box scores, then just base their opinions on what the deadbeats at ESPN think. When it comes to people actually paying attention, it is a very small percentage, if you don’t believe me, look at the politicians that keep getting re-elected, by those same people 😂, it’s easier to parrot what ya heard versus doing the research yourself, most folk choose the parrot 🦜 …., We Bills fans are damn lucky to find ourselves in the position we are in right now…, I of course was way into these guys long before everyone else, 😆🤣😂 Go Bills!!!
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