All_Pro_Bills Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Big Blitz said: Someone help me out here.... The vaccine is either not close to what they say or it's doing nothing against Delta. It's been only 5 plus months since Virginia hit 700K fully vaccinated. 1000 dead and 83 are breakthrough cases. Is this bad? Notice the B.S. date they use as the start date for determining unvaccinated deaths vs breakthrough deaths. Vaccine breakthrough cases in Virginia (Jan. 17–Aug. 14): Infections: 10,712 Hospitalizations: 404 Deaths: 83 https://www.newsleader.com/story/news/2021/08/23/vaccine-breakthrough-infections-hospitalizations-and-deaths-virginia/8245078002/ Virginia is misrepresenting this data - almost 1 in 10 deaths are breakthrough infections and will rise in next few months btw - NOT 1 in 100. By March 5, only 750K Virginians were fully vaccinated. Explain to me why they're using January 17? https://www.wric.com/news/virginia-news/coronavirus-update-16-5-of-virginias-population-vaccinated-with-at-least-one-dose/ This is a deliberate lie. Only 5% of the population had a shot let alone 2 by late January. But that's when deaths were beginning to PEAK meaning they were infected in December when virtually no one was vaccinated. So it's a convenient start day to fit their narrative. Because we started giving shots in early January that means we can use that start day in counting deaths - this is misleading. Badly. A better number should be say April 15 - and that's being generous - there have been just about 1000 deaths in Virginia since April 15. Per the update above, 83 of the deaths are "breakthrough infections." Almost 1 in 10. So is this bad or good? Wth is going on? I'm not saying the vaccine is worthless. I just want to know why they used the dates they are. You draw your own conclusions. But it looks to me that if that many fully vaccinated have died vs just under 1000 or so - if that - weren't......what are we doing? Virginia btw has been fully open and maskless for 3 plus months outside of parts of Fairfax who up until a month ago were all maskless. What seems to get lost is the efficacy rate. The clinical trials that provided EUA for the Pfizer vaccine generated an efficacy rate of 95.1%. Last night the ABC news story on the vaccine receiving FDA approval, which was a foregone conclusion, put the number at 91%. That means for every 100 people vaccinated 4.9 or 9 people respectively will be not be protected. That is most likely the population making up the breakthrough cases. And now we know the vaccine loses efficacy over time. And have some hard data on the deterioration rate and time line. That's why the booster shots are needed. While we have data on short-term side effects of getting the shot, some of which have been serious and leading to death, what we still don't know are any long-term side effects of the vaccine. People in high risk health situations for adverse side effects from the vaccine should not be "mandated" to get vaccinated. That is just medically irresponsible and borders on criminal. Unknown long-term side effects is one of the main concerns with the vaccine hesitant and a likely concern in the back of the minds of many, like myself, getting vaccinated too. Will it lead to massive health complications of one kind or another sometime in the future? Or will all be well? Or something in between? We don't know. That's the part that worries me. Nobody has data on the future. Anyone who claims there are no serious and life-threatening long term side effects is stating something as fact that they cannot possible know is true or false. At best its a educated guess based on the information and science available now. At worst its simply a political statement to minimize public concerns and resistance. Anyone saying the risk of the virus causing serious illness is worth the risk of any potential health consequences a year or two from today cannot possibly know that either. There's no information available to make those claims. As it goes, nothing is more frightening than ignorance in action. Edited August 24, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills 1
oldmanfan Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 12 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: What seems to get lost is the efficacy rate. The clinical trials that provided EUA for the Pfizer vaccine generated an efficacy rate of 95.1%. Last night the ABC news story on the vaccine receiving FDA approval, which was a foregone conclusion, put the number at 91%. That means for every 100 people vaccinated 4.9 or 9 people respectively will be not be protected. That is most likely the population making up the breakthrough cases. And now we know the vaccine loses efficacy over time. And have some hard data on the deterioration rate and time line. That's why the booster shots are needed. While we have data on short-term side effects of getting the shot, some of which have been serious and leading to death, what we still don't know are any long-term side effects of the vaccine. People in high risk health situations for adverse side effects from the vaccine should not be "mandated" to get vaccinated. That is just medically irresponsible and borders on criminal. Unknown long-term side effects is one of the main concerns with the vaccine hesitant and a likely concern in the back of the minds of many, like myself, getting vaccinated too. Will it lead to massive health complications of one kind or another sometime in the future? Or will all be well? Or something in between? We don't know. That's the part that worries me. Nobody has data on the future. Anyone who claims there are no serious and life-threatening long term side effects is stating something as fact that they cannot possible know is true or false. At best its a educated guess based on the information and science available now. At worst its simply a political statement to minimize public concerns and resistance. Anyone saying the risk of the virus causing serious illness is worth the risk of any potential health consequences a year or two from today cannot possibly know that either. There's no information available to make those claims. As it goes, nothing is more frightening than ignorance in action. Historically there are very few "long term" effects of vaccinations. One was with the polio vaccine and that was because they had a batch of attenuated/killed virus for the vaccine that were not killed off. Another was Guillan-Barrre with I believe a batch of flu vaccine; I'd have to check the specific vaccine. Otherwise, none. Problems with vaccines are b=generally caught within weeks of vaccination. It is actually a credit to the health care agencies that the very rare cardiac and blood clotting concernes with the Covid vaccines were picked up so rapidly. The long term complication argument is a straw man.
ALF Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 If a vaccine can keep me out of the hospital and cemetery hit me again (I'm high risk)
All_Pro_Bills Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Historically there are very few "long term" effects of vaccinations. One was with the polio vaccine and that was because they had a batch of attenuated/killed virus for the vaccine that were not killed off. Another was Guillan-Barrre with I believe a batch of flu vaccine; I'd have to check the specific vaccine. Otherwise, none. Problems with vaccines are b=generally caught within weeks of vaccination. It is actually a credit to the health care agencies that the very rare cardiac and blood clotting concernes with the Covid vaccines were picked up so rapidly. The long term complication argument is a straw man. Nor has any vaccine been based on an mRNA Gene Therapy platform before. Something that most scientists and clinicians would categorize as "experimental". And that implies potential unknown risks.
Governor Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 9 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: So does this mean you’re FINALLY gonna get vaccinated? What took you so long? FDA Deep State!
oldmanfan Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 36 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Nor has any vaccine been based on an mRNA Gene Therapy platform before. Something that most scientists and clinicians would categorize as "experimental". And that implies potential unknown risks. The mRNA technologyhas been studied for decades, and now is being put to use. The mRNA vaccines consist of the mRNA and some salts plus lipid molecules that help solubilize the medication and have it enter the cells. Once the mRNA enters it uses the cell’s machinery to make the viral spike protein, which the body then mounts an immune response against. The mRNA is quickly degraded after being read. Contrary to some of the false information being spread, there is no change to your DNA, no change to your genome. The are no magic magnetic particles or Bill Gates microchips. There is nothing within the virus itself other than the mRNA molecule that would cause long term effects, and as explained above the mRNA won’t either. Vaccines with the mRNA started 8 months ago. Hundreds of millions have been given and very rare side effects have been noted. If there were going to be long term effects we’d see some evidence of that; we haven’t. People talk about thousands of deaths from the vaccine, and that is nonsense. The VAERS reporting system through the CDC has deaths reported from anyone who has been vaccinated for any reason. Any report has to then be reviewed by the CDC and FDA and when this is done an extremely small number of deaths can be attributed to the vaccine, with the very rare side effects noted above or hyper immune response presumably the causes. If one wanted to take on a conspiratorial tone, one could say the anti-vac crowd are filing false claims to make things look bad. I knew this would happen. The goalpost was the approval. Now that there is FDA approval the goalpost gets moved to complications. Since that is not tenable, it will be interesting to see where the goalpost gets moved next. Meanwhile hospitals in the South fill with non-vaccinated folks, children’s infection rates are going up secondary to increased viral spread. Darwin is having a field day. 1
All_Pro_Bills Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 25 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: The mRNA technologyhas been studied for decades, and now is being put to use. The mRNA vaccines consist of the mRNA and some salts plus lipid molecules that help solubilize the medication and have it enter the cells. Once the mRNA enters it uses the cell’s machinery to make the viral spike protein, which the body then mounts an immune response against. The mRNA is quickly degraded after being read. Contrary to some of the false information being spread, there is no change to your DNA, no change to your genome. The are no magic magnetic particles or Bill Gates microchips. There is nothing within the virus itself other than the mRNA molecule that would cause long term effects, and as explained above the mRNA won’t either. Vaccines with the mRNA started 8 months ago. Hundreds of millions have been given and very rare side effects have been noted. If there were going to be long term effects we’d see some evidence of that; we haven’t. People talk about thousands of deaths from the vaccine, and that is nonsense. The VAERS reporting system through the CDC has deaths reported from anyone who has been vaccinated for any reason. Any report has to then be reviewed by the CDC and FDA and when this is done an extremely small number of deaths can be attributed to the vaccine, with the very rare side effects noted above or hyper immune response presumably the causes. If one wanted to take on a conspiratorial tone, one could say the anti-vac crowd are filing false claims to make things look bad. I knew this would happen. The goalpost was the approval. Now that there is FDA approval the goalpost gets moved to complications. Since that is not tenable, it will be interesting to see where the goalpost gets moved next. Meanwhile hospitals in the South fill with non-vaccinated folks, children’s infection rates are going up secondary to increased viral spread. Darwin is having a field day. I remember Gene Therapy being touted before and during the tech stock blowout. And nobody on Earth expected the FDA to deny the application so it was just a matter of waiting for them to go through the motions of the approval process. And the risk of long-term complications isn't something that just fell out of the sky yesterday. The goalpost in the process of being moved will be the definition of "fully vaccinated". Today that means 2 shots. Tomorrow, all signs point to 2 shots plus a booster. Then maybe another booster in 2022. The problem is the vaccine loses its effectiveness rapidly and I can't imagine there's any past study on the risks of being inoculated with the same exact formula over and over again 4, 5, 6 times. Are the boosters being "tuned" for the Delta variant? I don't know. Whether this rapid loss of efficacy is because of the nature of the vaccine or the reaction of the immune system itself isn't clear. But common sense might suggest this is going to be an ongoing problem.
oldmanfan Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 14 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: I remember Gene Therapy being touted before and during the tech stock blowout. And nobody on Earth expected the FDA to deny the application so it was just a matter of waiting for them to go through the motions of the approval process. And the risk of long-term complications isn't something that just fell out of the sky yesterday. The goalpost in the process of being moved will be the definition of "fully vaccinated". Today that means 2 shots. Tomorrow, all signs point to 2 shots plus a booster. Then maybe another booster in 2022. The problem is the vaccine loses its effectiveness rapidly and I can't imagine there's any past study on the risks of being inoculated with the same exact formula over and over again 4, 5, 6 times. Are the boosters being "tuned" for the Delta variant? I don't know. Whether this rapid loss of efficacy is because of the nature of the vaccine or the reaction of the immune system itself isn't clear. But common sense might suggest this is going to be an ongoing problem. Science suggests that as this virus mutates we will get boosters to deal with new variants, similar to the different flu vaccines we get yearly. The difference is that, because of the mRNA nature of the vaccines, you can sequence the viral genome nd quickly adapt the mRNA to the new variant. These vaccines are incredibly effective at preventing illness; over 90% is a very high effectiveness rate for a vaccine. You are not getting the exact same formula time and again. It may very likely be a common problem we have to deal with, like the flu. We may not be able to eradicate it like smallpox. But the vaccine effectivenesss is really good and should remain so.
Governor Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Chef Jim said: Source? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1277514?__twitter_impression=true
Big Blitz Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 9 minutes ago, Governor said: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1277514?__twitter_impression=true
Governor Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Big Blitz said: It just backs up numbers that we already knew anyway. Not a surprise to anyone.
Big Blitz Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 15 minutes ago, Governor said: It just backs up numbers that we already knew anyway. Not a surprise to anyone. They're the exact opposite
Tommy Callahan Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 "We're only gonna test Vaxed people weekly." - NFL (Vaxed infected guy contacts players for 6 days) "Why would Beasley do this!" - NFL
Sundancer Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.23.457229v1 Penn study showing SARS-CoV-2-specific memory B-cell responses are robustly induced following COVID-19 mRNA vaccination AND continue to increase in frequency for 6 months (so far), even as circulating antibody levels wane. Pre-print but not surprising and this is why you can't freak out right away about antibody level studies, as many knowledgeable people have been saying. Maybe you get Covid later and then the B-cells fire up their memory and rock it out. Explains the cases, but less serious cases, in vaccinated. Sorry for the possible good news. Carry on doom and gloomers.
Big Blitz Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 Cool ......so a laid out long term plan should be easy to establish...... Study: One in three Americans contracted COVID-19 in 2020 Looking ahead, the authors write that several factors will alter population susceptibility to infection. The virus will continue to spread to those who haven't yet been infected. And while vaccines protect against severe and fatal disease, breakthrough infections, including those that are mild or asymptomatic, will contribute to the spread of the virus. The study does not account for possible reinfections among those who have already had the disease, although there is evidence that antibodies may wane over time, and some people have definitely been reinfected. New, more contagious variants will make reinfections and breakthrough infections more likely, the authors write. "While the landscape has changed with the availability of vaccines and the spread of new variants, it is important to recognize just how dangerous the pandemic was in its first year," said Sen Pei, an assistant professor of environmental health sciences at Mailman. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-08-americans-covid-.html If they can't answer "how does this play out" then refusals to take the vaccine are warranted. My guess is the reason they don't....and this is crazy....call it a hunch. . .....I have no evidence this should be the case.. .....but my guess is because they plan on mitigation and control for years which of course means indefinitely
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 6 hours ago, oldmanfan said: The long term complication argument is a straw man. No it’s not. Are you seriously suggesting there is no merit to at least questioning long term effects of putting something man made in your body ?? Especially a brand new type of vaccine made in a completely different way than any other vaccine ever? Have you ever seen this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs only Athena completely ignorant wouldn’t acknowledge that the long term effect of something like this is unknown, even if the risk decision is made overwhelmingly to get it.
Sundancer Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: No it’s not. Are you seriously suggesting there is no merit to at least questioning long term effects of putting something man made in your body ?? Especially a brand new type of vaccine made in a completely different way than any other vaccine ever? Have you ever seen this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs only Athena completely ignorant wouldn’t acknowledge that the long term effect of something like this is unknown, even if the risk decision is made overwhelmingly to get it. Trumpers: Don't put that experimental FDA approved drug in my body. Trumpers in the hospital with Covid: Give me the experimental drug cocktail they gave Trump!
Governor Posted August 24, 2021 Posted August 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: No it’s not. Are you seriously suggesting there is no merit to at least questioning long term effects of putting something man made in your body ?? Especially a brand new type of vaccine made in a completely different way than any other vaccine ever? Have you ever seen this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs only Athena completely ignorant wouldn’t acknowledge that the long term effect of something like this is unknown, even if the risk decision is made overwhelmingly to get it. He’s right. It just isn’t realistic for there to be long term effects. It’s far less concerning than drinking milk, eating meat, our water supply, forever chemicals, etc.
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