Orlando Buffalo Posted December 1 Posted December 1 9 hours ago, GaryPinC said: Let's be clear, I do cardiology research and as stated previously I have zero contact with patients. None of my research involves humans and human tissue. You have piqued my curiosity and I will ask my colleagues about any changes in influenza testing during the pandemic, and if they tested in conjunction with Covid. I will also ask about if there was greater/unnecessary care given to uninsured and how much. Let's be clear though, the funds weren't for everyone, simply the uninsured, which at the time was about 8.5%of the population. https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/percentage-without-health-insurance-coverage-by-state-2021-2022.html Hospitals were still getting paid by insurance companies also. The uninsured brought in a percentage they didn't normally see and it helped keep them afloat, especially rural ones. Did hospitals take advantage of it? No doubt. Is 8.5% enough to account for the total influenza numbers? No, not without better evidence. While surprising, I have no issue trusting decades of influenza standards of care and procedural testing to give numbers at least close to accurate. There's simply no compelling evidence otherwise, unless you've got something better. And we'll see what my colleagues say. I don't mean to be totally a jerk but why did you argue with me? The numbers don't add up but you argued that everything was normal. The numbers are garbage, regardless of what anyone says, but why are they garbage? If they are garbage because the procedure changed caused it I will accept that, but 3 years without an explanation should not be accepted by smart people.
GaryPinC Posted December 1 Posted December 1 12 hours ago, Orlando Buffalo said: I don't mean to be totally a jerk but why did you argue with me? The numbers don't add up but you argued that everything was normal. The numbers are garbage, regardless of what anyone says, but why are they garbage? If they are garbage because the procedure changed caused it I will accept that, but 3 years without an explanation should not be accepted by smart people. Good question, I have never argued the numbers are normal. They inarguably are not normal. I have argued with your opinion that they are garbage. For me as a scientist, they most certainly are not. There may be inaccuracies but there is also truth in those numbers. I understand you feel they are garbage because "procedure changed" and with federal support some hospitals may have utilized certain patients to maximize that. I have attempted to explain and support my arguments with evidence. You can provide very little evidence in return. Ok. An entire Flu strain vanished after Covid. A strain that was common enough to be included in the yearly vaccine. That is a BIG deal. It's far from normal and it's absence has been re-confirmed for years now. The CDC rigorously studies subtype prevalence and structures next year's vaccine around them. It can't be explained by procedural changes or anything that has formed your opinion. It alone confirms that influenza took a big hit during Covid. It alone disproves your opinion the numbers are "garbage" as their must be truth behind them. How much remains to be seen but it is undeniable influenza prevalence was reduced during Covid and not simply hidden behind it. Couple that with the reduction of deaths and positive tests and there's a complex truth there. Unfortunately complex truths can take years to understand. Most certainly smart people are currently working to understand it. But your last response to me: "The numbers are garbage, regardless of what anyone says, but why are they garbage? If they are garbage because the procedure changed caused it I will accept that," So that's it? Your truth is the only truth regardless of actual evidence? People smarter than you and I specializing in this science must say your truth or you will reject it? I offer to you that if you would open your mind to other truths in a bigger picture, you wouldn't worry about being perceived as a jerk. I don't know you but I believe every person is capable of being open minded so that's also part of this discussion, if not for you then for others on this board. It's good to respectfully discuss, and I appreciate that you've been respectful in this. It's good to consider other possible truths.
Orlando Buffalo Posted December 2 Posted December 2 On 12/1/2024 at 10:56 AM, GaryPinC said: Good question, I have never argued the numbers are normal. They inarguably are not normal. I have argued with your opinion that they are garbage. For me as a scientist, they most certainly are not. There may be inaccuracies but there is also truth in those numbers. I understand you feel they are garbage because "procedure changed" and with federal support some hospitals may have utilized certain patients to maximize that. I have attempted to explain and support my arguments with evidence. You can provide very little evidence in return. Ok. An entire Flu strain vanished after Covid. A strain that was common enough to be included in the yearly vaccine. That is a BIG deal. It's far from normal and it's absence has been re-confirmed for years now. The CDC rigorously studies subtype prevalence and structures next year's vaccine around them. It can't be explained by procedural changes or anything that has formed your opinion. It alone confirms that influenza took a big hit during Covid. It alone disproves your opinion the numbers are "garbage" as their must be truth behind them. How much remains to be seen but it is undeniable influenza prevalence was reduced during Covid and not simply hidden behind it. Couple that with the reduction of deaths and positive tests and there's a complex truth there. Unfortunately complex truths can take years to understand. Most certainly smart people are currently working to understand it. But your last response to me: "The numbers are garbage, regardless of what anyone says, but why are they garbage? If they are garbage because the procedure changed caused it I will accept that," So that's it? Your truth is the only truth regardless of actual evidence? People smarter than you and I specializing in this science must say your truth or you will reject it? I offer to you that if you would open your mind to other truths in a bigger picture, you wouldn't worry about being perceived as a jerk. I don't know you but I believe every person is capable of being open minded so that's also part of this discussion, if not for you then for others on this board. It's good to respectfully discuss, and I appreciate that you've been respectful in this. It's good to consider other possible truths. Your point of how I know the information is garbage, any change of 99% from a historically relative constant measure is going to have an obvious cause, and likely multiple minor causes. I can not find the rate from last year, not sure where you found it, did it pop back to the 15-20% mark?
GaryPinC Posted December 3 Posted December 3 (edited) 18 hours ago, Orlando Buffalo said: Your point of how I know the information is garbage, any change of 99% from a historically relative constant measure is going to have an obvious cause, and likely multiple minor causes. I can not find the rate from last year, not sure where you found it, did it pop back to the 15-20% mark? Yes, I agree that a change of 99% is going to have obvious and/or multiple causes. That does not make it garbage and no one can know that with certainty, especially in this case, as the CDC rigorously collects data on influenza, both direct and indirect. Multiple data collections strongly suggest the point I have been trying to make, a level of validity with these numbers. I did dig up some of the total tests/positives as below but this other data was more readily available: One set of data across all the years is hospitalizations per 100,000 population. 2019-2020: 66.2 2020-2021: 0.8 2021-2022: 22.6 2022-2023: 64.4 2023-2024: 83.1 In the 2021-2022 season CDC reports a COVID/Influenza co-infection rate of about 5%. It's hard to say how this translates to 2020-2021 because Covid was still a novel virus whereas in 2021-2022 it was becoming endemic but obviously the coinfection will hide numbers from 2020-2021. I didn't dig into the subsequent years. I also did find total tests/positives for most of the years with a caveat for 2021-2022: 2018/19: 1,226,548 15.5% 2019/20: 1,491,430 16.8% 2020/21: 1,480,295 0.8% ***2021/22: 2,850,954 4.5% *****pulled from a scientific paper which cited CDC pages for this data that no longer exist 2022/23: 4,023,390 8.9% 2023/24: 3,910,204 9.0% Certainly a procedural change as you suspected that mandates more influenza testing post-Covid Edited December 3 by GaryPinC
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