BillsFanNC Posted November 28 Posted November 28 On 7/20/2021 at 2:41 PM, The Frankish Reich said: Enough already. Guess what? It's constitutional, and it has been for a century: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/07/20/federal-judge-upholds-indiana-universitys-covid-19-vaccine-requirement The Indiana University case cites two early 20th century Supreme Court cases upholding vaccine mandates. Vaccine relucatance - or worse, outright anti-vaxxer sentiment - is about to turn an acute, time-limited problem into a never-ending problem. If the percent vaccinated doesn't uptick considerably in the next couple months, look forward to online education, mask mandates, maxed-out emergency rooms, travel bans, all that fun stuff all over again. We've heard you anti-vaxxers. Six months into mass vaccination and your irrational fears have been dispelled. For the obstinate "I won't get vaccinated just because they want us to" -- why they hell did Trump and Melania and family get vaccinated if it's some kind of radical lefty plot? There's still time. Start with simple things: let private businesses require proof of vaccination status. It's their damn business, it's just a continuation of that old "We Reserve Right to Refuse Service to Anyone" sign that I grew up with. If that isn't working, proceed to the next step: vaccine mandates for various higher-risk activities like colleges, in-person high school attendance, air travel. If that isn't working, then go full-on vaccine mandate. When did we get to be a country of such whiners? It's there, it's free (at least to you, the recipient), it's working, it's the way out of this mess. Do. It. Now.
JFKjr Posted November 28 Posted November 28 3 hours ago, GaryPinC said: Influenza is easily tested for, your pet theory is extremely unlikely. Sure, it's easily tested for. But they DIDN'T. Flu disappeared and "Covid" was everywhere. (or maybe not) 1
Irv Posted November 28 Posted November 28 (edited) @BillStime tipped over from COVID while triple masked during an anal bleaching session. Repeat the line. R.I.P. Edited November 28 by Irv 1
GaryPinC Posted November 28 Posted November 28 6 hours ago, JFKjr said: Sure, it's easily tested for. But they DIDN'T. Flu disappeared and "Covid" was everywhere. (or maybe not) Yes they did. If a patient has to be hospitalized from a viral infection, they're going to do their best to figure out which it is. Is it possible a positive Covid test precluded further testing? Possibly, but I didn't really discuss to that detail with the ER doc I work with. But if the patient is Covid negative they will run through their other tests to best help them save the patient's life. And Covid was everywhere. At the time when the science of it was so unknown medical professionals had to fear for their lives and their family's.
Orlando Buffalo Posted November 28 Posted November 28 2 hours ago, GaryPinC said: Yes they did. If a patient has to be hospitalized from a viral infection, they're going to do their best to figure out which it is. Is it possible a positive Covid test precluded further testing? Possibly, but I didn't really discuss to that detail with the ER doc I work with. But if the patient is Covid negative they will run through their other tests to best help them save the patient's life. And Covid was everywhere. At the time when the science of it was so unknown medical professionals had to fear for their lives and their family's. So you actually believe that that flu deaths dropped 80% that one year vs the prior year? I am not even blaming medical professionals but the government response was horrendous and the government gave incentives to find COVID at the expense of being more comprehensive.
GaryPinC Posted November 29 Posted November 29 (edited) On 11/28/2024 at 9:42 AM, Orlando Buffalo said: So you actually believe that that flu deaths dropped 80% that one year vs the prior year? I am not even blaming medical professionals but the government response was horrendous and the government gave incentives to find COVID at the expense of being more comprehensive. https://www.cdc.gov/flu-burden/php/data-vis/2020-2021.html Number of Specimens tested were essentially the same as the previous (mostly non-covid)year https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-die-flu/ At this point, yes, it was low two years in a row though I am always open to discussion as there is still much we didn't know. But, I trust the CDC didn't change their influenza data collection methods for these years and you can see the amount of tests administered is inline with a normal flu season. Should tests have been higher? Maybe, but it's not significantly lower and the amount of positives (not deaths) is less than 1% of normal! Were there hospitals that were using a positive covid test to gain funding? Most likely, but do I believe it was widespread enough to give us these numbers? Hell no, too many liability issues at stake. Much like the 2020 election that hyperinflated isolated incidents of voter fraud, the same mentality is at work here by the same people. Do you have solid, respected data that says otherwise? Edited November 29 by GaryPinC
JFKjr Posted November 29 Posted November 29 They say that kids are a huge vector when it comes to flu transmission. So maybe locking down the schools and keeping kids home for most of the year was helpful in preventing flu transmission. Not really a practical thing to do going forward, but maybe it helps explain it. So in hosting Thanksgiving this year my BIL and SIL were talking about their recent flu shots. (They are very health-conscious/pro-vaccine/afraid of illness etc.) I asked if they had gotten their Covid booster yet. My SIL said they stopped getting them because she developed a sudden arthritic condition right after one of her shots, and she the Covid shot for that and is afraid to get another one. 2
GaryPinC Posted November 29 Posted November 29 39 minutes ago, JFKjr said: They say that kids are a huge vector when it comes to flu transmission. So maybe locking down the schools and keeping kids home for most of the year was helpful in preventing flu transmission. Not really a practical thing to do going forward, but maybe it helps explain it. So in hosting Thanksgiving this year my BIL and SIL were talking about their recent flu shots. (They are very health-conscious/pro-vaccine/afraid of illness etc.) I asked if they had gotten their Covid booster yet. My SIL said they stopped getting them because she developed a sudden arthritic condition right after one of her shots, and she the Covid shot for that and is afraid to get another one. Interesting about your SIL, how often had she been getting Covid shots before that? Not unreasonable that too frequent of shots kept the immune system upregulated and fed into a rheumatoid condition. One of the cool things about Covid is the increasing knowledge about viral transmission. Years ago I got my first flu shot in Jan/Feb and got ill 2 days later. No real explanation why from the docs. A few years ago our hospital instituted mandatory flu shots in early fall and I've never gotten sick from them. What I realize now is that I had probably already had the actual flu before my first time flu vaccine, and much like the follow-up covid dose, my immune system was primed and responded overwhelmingly, resulting in feeling ill.
Orlando Buffalo Posted November 29 Posted November 29 3 hours ago, GaryPinC said: https://www.cdc.gov/flu-burden/php/data-vis/2020-2021.html Number of Specimens tested were essentially the same as the previous (mostly non-covid)year https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-die-flu/ At this point, yes, it was low two years in a row though I am always open to discussion as there is still much we didn't know. But, I trust the CDC didn't change their influenza data collection methods for these years and you can see the amount of tests administered is inline with a normal flu season. Should tests have been higher? Maybe, but it's not significantly lower and the amount of positives (not deaths) is less than 1% of normal! Were there hospitals that were using a positive covid test to gain funding? Most likely, but do I believe it was widespread enough to give us these numbers? Hell no, too many liability issues at stake. Much like the 2020 election that hyperinflated isolated incidents of voter fraud, the same mentality is at work here by the same people. Do you have solid, respected data that says otherwise? I recognize you are not responsible for them but those stats don't make any sense, why are we testing 1000 people and only having 2 be ill? Did everyone in medical care forget how to diagnose an illness? Reading what you wrote you seem to don't realize that the illness rate dropped 99%, from 17% to .15%
GaryPinC Posted November 29 Posted November 29 16 minutes ago, Orlando Buffalo said: I recognize you are not responsible for them but those stats don't make any sense, why are we testing 1000 people and only having 2 be ill? Did everyone in medical care forget how to diagnose an illness? Reading what you wrote you seem to don't realize that the illness rate dropped 99%, from 17% to .15% The stats are eye opening and are definitely unique but that was a unique moment in time. You do realize viral infections have a lot of overlapping symptoms? The only way to be certain is by testing, especially if the patient is in serious condition. That's why we're testing people. The testing rate was inline with historical rates, so on the surface the precipitous drop in positives roughly corresponds to the drop in influenza deaths you asked about. When I responded previously that the number of positives dropped to less than 1% of normal it's the same thing as you saying the illness rate dropped 99%. The stats are surprising but those are the stats, gathered using the same protocols and system as in previous years. You may feel they make no sense and there's a giant conspiracy here but I feel differently, especially as the death numbers were still reduced but starting to rise again during the 21-22 season. So it wasn't like one unbelievable year and the stats were back to normal next year. Also, here's an entire flu strain that hasn't been seen since before Covid: https://www.npr.org/2024/10/18/nx-s1-5155997/influenza-strains-disappearance-attributed-to-covid-protocols-alters-2024-flu-shot There are going to be a variety of factors behind this phenomenon. There are some convinced that simply the isolation, masking, and distance were behind this. I'm not confident in that simplicity, science needs time to understand it. Circling back to your original question and post, for me there are too many corroborating facts on far too large a scale to buy into your conspiracy theory. For reasons not yet fully understood, influenza took a big hit during Covid.
Orlando Buffalo Posted November 30 Posted November 30 3 hours ago, GaryPinC said: The stats are eye opening and are definitely unique but that was a unique moment in time. You do realize viral infections have a lot of overlapping symptoms? The only way to be certain is by testing, especially if the patient is in serious condition. That's why we're testing people. The testing rate was inline with historical rates, so on the surface the precipitous drop in positives roughly corresponds to the drop in influenza deaths you asked about. When I responded previously that the number of positives dropped to less than 1% of normal it's the same thing as you saying the illness rate dropped 99%. The stats are surprising but those are the stats, gathered using the same protocols and system as in previous years. You may feel they make no sense and there's a giant conspiracy here but I feel differently, especially as the death numbers were still reduced but starting to rise again during the 21-22 season. So it wasn't like one unbelievable year and the stats were back to normal next year. Also, here's an entire flu strain that hasn't been seen since before Covid: https://www.npr.org/2024/10/18/nx-s1-5155997/influenza-strains-disappearance-attributed-to-covid-protocols-alters-2024-flu-shot There are going to be a variety of factors behind this phenomenon. There are some convinced that simply the isolation, masking, and distance were behind this. I'm not confident in that simplicity, science needs time to understand it. Circling back to your original question and post, for me there are too many corroborating facts on far too large a scale to buy into your conspiracy theory. For reasons not yet fully understood, influenza took a big hit during Covid. Why are you calling it a conspiracy that the government told hospitals to change their protocols in 2020-2021? You are so afraid of being called a conspiracy theorist that you refuse to even ask questions on what is clearly an impossibility, to accept that the rate dropped 99% without an explanation 3 years later is not a conspiracy, it is likely incompetence but it is unacceptable to just accept.
GaryPinC Posted November 30 Posted November 30 9 hours ago, Orlando Buffalo said: Why are you calling it a conspiracy that the government told hospitals to change their protocols in 2020-2021? You are so afraid of being called a conspiracy theorist that you refuse to even ask questions on what is clearly an impossibility, to accept that the rate dropped 99% without an explanation 3 years later is not a conspiracy, it is likely incompetence but it is unacceptable to just accept. I'm sorry, I'm not going to simply accept your opinions without some actual, you know, evidence. The CDC has had set protocols and monitoring of influenza since 1956. Hospitals have set procedures when to test for influenza. I've shown you that testing was consistent, and other corroborating evidence supports the fact that influenza severity and occurrence took a big, multi year hit during Covid. Let's start with the nearly 1.5 million tests administered during the 20-21 season. Tested and recorded results. How are these incorrect or invalid? What actual evidence compels you to invalidate and declare the situation impossible? Near as I can find, all government hospital financial support was for either the uninsured or Medicaid/Medicare patients only. Procedural changes were made to enable quicker, more flexible care in a time of crisis. For example, eliminating the need for physician referral to test for Covid, allowing facilities designated rehabilitation only to be used as primary care beds, and loosening restrictions to enable quickly hiring more medical personnel. What government mandated procedural changes are you pointing at as being a problem? Many of these were started under the Trump administration and all financial programs were approved by Congress. The conspiracy I am referring to is the assertion that many hospitals across the country unlawfully and improperly diagnosed and cared for patients on a massive scale to take advantage of government funds, invalidating or overinflating covid and influenza numbers. Can you help me out with specifics and evidence to your arguments? To your point, I can't just accept your opinions when there's acceptable hard facts that indicate otherwise.
4th&long Posted November 30 Posted November 30 10 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: I'm sorry, I'm not going to simply accept your opinions without some actual, you know, evidence. The CDC has had set protocols and monitoring of influenza since 1956. Hospitals have set procedures when to test for influenza. I've shown you that testing was consistent, and other corroborating evidence supports the fact that influenza severity and occurrence took a big, multi year hit during Covid. Let's start with the nearly 1.5 million tests administered during the 20-21 season. Tested and recorded results. How are these incorrect or invalid? What actual evidence compels you to invalidate and declare the situation impossible? Near as I can find, all government hospital financial support was for either the uninsured or Medicaid/Medicare patients only. Procedural changes were made to enable quicker, more flexible care in a time of crisis. For example, eliminating the need for physician referral to test for Covid, allowing facilities designated rehabilitation only to be used as primary care beds, and loosening restrictions to enable quickly hiring more medical personnel. What government mandated procedural changes are you pointing at as being a problem? Many of these were started under the Trump administration and all financial programs were approved by Congress. The conspiracy I am referring to is the assertion that many hospitals across the country unlawfully and improperly diagnosed and cared for patients on a massive scale to take advantage of government funds, invalidating or overinflating covid and influenza numbers. Can you help me out with specifics and evidence to your arguments? To your point, I can't just accept your opinions when there's acceptable hard facts that indicate otherwise. These people have the internet, of course they know more than doctors and medical professionals who spend 10 years in college to begin with! The done need evidence. And all this started under trump! Covid is his fault, and Covid is what started inflation. When the bird flu jumps to mammals I hope MAGA refuses to get vaccinated!!!!
Orlando Buffalo Posted November 30 Posted November 30 27 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: I'm sorry, I'm not going to simply accept your opinions without some actual, you know, evidence. The CDC has had set protocols and monitoring of influenza since 1956. Hospitals have set procedures when to test for influenza. I've shown you that testing was consistent, and other corroborating evidence supports the fact that influenza severity and occurrence took a big, multi year hit during Covid. Let's start with the nearly 1.5 million tests administered during the 20-21 season. Tested and recorded results. How are these incorrect or invalid? What actual evidence compels you to invalidate and declare the situation impossible? Near as I can find, all government hospital financial support was for either the uninsured or Medicaid/Medicare patients only. Procedural changes were made to enable quicker, more flexible care in a time of crisis. For example, eliminating the need for physician referral to test for Covid, allowing facilities designated rehabilitation only to be used as primary care beds, and loosening restrictions to enable quickly hiring more medical personnel. What government mandated procedural changes are you pointing at as being a problem? Many of these were started under the Trump administration and all financial programs were approved by Congress. The conspiracy I am referring to is the assertion that many hospitals across the country unlawfully and improperly diagnosed and cared for patients on a massive scale to take advantage of government funds, invalidating or overinflating covid and influenza numbers. Can you help me out with specifics and evidence to your arguments? To your point, I can't just accept your opinions when there's acceptable hard facts that indicate otherwise. you are arguing that it is a conspiracy that we tested asymptomatic people. You are arguing that it is conspiracy that hospitals changed protocols to get more money from the government. Since you believe those two things no one can help you because it happened, it is well documented, and you don't want it to be true because Trump exists. BTW, I have stated several times I don't blame the healthcare workers, but government, and the workers did as told.
GaryPinC Posted November 30 Posted November 30 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Orlando Buffalo said: you are arguing that it is a conspiracy that we tested asymptomatic people. You are arguing that it is conspiracy that hospitals changed protocols to get more money from the government. Since you believe those two things no one can help you because it happened, it is well documented, and you don't want it to be true because Trump exists. BTW, I have stated several times I don't blame the healthcare workers, but government, and the workers did as told. Where is this documented? What procedures did hospitals change? Covid had an asymptomatic component. Or are you referring to influenza? Are you blaming Trump for this as much of it occurred during his administration? Edited November 30 by GaryPinC
Orlando Buffalo Posted November 30 Posted November 30 14 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: Where is this documented? What procedures did hospitals change? Covid had an asymptomatic component. Or are you referring to influenza? Are you blaming Trump for this as much of it occurred during his administration? Are you actually unaware that hospitals changed procedures during COVID? If so I can't go through all this with you because your ignorance is astonishing
GaryPinC Posted November 30 Posted November 30 44 minutes ago, Orlando Buffalo said: Are you actually unaware that hospitals changed procedures during COVID? If so I can't go through all this with you because your ignorance is astonishing 😂 I am a researcher at the primary level 1 trauma center in Cleveland. While not in healthcare, 2 of my colleagues are long-standing ER docs. I am required to have knowledge of hospital disaster protocols already in place in case my help is needed, but for Covid many improvements had to be made in practice. Improvements dealt with the shutdown, pandemic nature and managing patient flow, care, beds, and safety. Do you have any idea what a mostly unreported logistical challenge it was with the crush of patients going through ER's? What specific protocol changes do you feel impacted quality or compromised care? I'll be happy to ask my docs and post about their experiences with whatever you base this on. Also, I and my family had to be tested asymptomatically as required in summer of 2021 by the state of Hawaii. States, conferences, and many gatherings instituted these procedures for a short time. Do your statistics on asymptomatic testing account for this? Or are you referring to influenza? Still no real evidence from you to back up your arguments/opinions and discuss. I'm happy to be wrong and learn something today!
Orlando Buffalo Posted November 30 Posted November 30 30 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: 😂 I am a researcher at the primary level 1 trauma center in Cleveland. While not in healthcare, 2 of my colleagues are long-standing ER docs. I am required to have knowledge of hospital disaster protocols already in place in case my help is needed, but for Covid many improvements had to be made in practice. Improvements dealt with the shutdown, pandemic nature and managing patient flow, care, beds, and safety. Do you have any idea what a mostly unreported logistical challenge it was with the crush of patients going through ER's? What specific protocol changes do you feel impacted quality or compromised care? I'll be happy to ask my docs and post about their experiences with whatever you base this on. Also, I and my family had to be tested asymptomatically as required in summer of 2021 by the state of Hawaii. States, conferences, and many gatherings instituted these procedures for a short time. Do your statistics on asymptomatic testing account for this? Or are you referring to influenza? Still no real evidence from you to back up your arguments/opinions and discuss. I'm happy to be wrong and learn something today! In regards to the flu,you do research at a medical center, see a 99% drop in a relatively constant stat, while knowing protocols were changed, and don't think that the process that was changed clearly was done poorly? You think it is a conspiracy to point out those numbers are garbage? With your job also then should know the federal government offered funds to cover COVID costs in 2020 and 2021 therefore every hospital wanted people who were there to have COVID, because it meant everyone was being paid for. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/federal-funds-for-uninsured-covid-patients-dry-up-as-hospital-costs-rise
GaryPinC Posted November 30 Posted November 30 1 hour ago, Orlando Buffalo said: In regards to the flu,you do research at a medical center, see a 99% drop in a relatively constant stat, while knowing protocols were changed, and don't think that the process that was changed clearly was done poorly? You think it is a conspiracy to point out those numbers are garbage? With your job also then should know the federal government offered funds to cover COVID costs in 2020 and 2021 therefore every hospital wanted people who were there to have COVID, because it meant everyone was being paid for. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/federal-funds-for-uninsured-covid-patients-dry-up-as-hospital-costs-rise Let's be clear, I do cardiology research and as stated previously I have zero contact with patients. None of my research involves humans and human tissue. You have piqued my curiosity and I will ask my colleagues about any changes in influenza testing during the pandemic, and if they tested in conjunction with Covid. I will also ask about if there was greater/unnecessary care given to uninsured and how much. Let's be clear though, the funds weren't for everyone, simply the uninsured, which at the time was about 8.5%of the population. https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/percentage-without-health-insurance-coverage-by-state-2021-2022.html Hospitals were still getting paid by insurance companies also. The uninsured brought in a percentage they didn't normally see and it helped keep them afloat, especially rural ones. Did hospitals take advantage of it? No doubt. Is 8.5% enough to account for the total influenza numbers? No, not without better evidence. While surprising, I have no issue trusting decades of influenza standards of care and procedural testing to give numbers at least close to accurate. There's simply no compelling evidence otherwise, unless you've got something better. And we'll see what my colleagues say. 1 1
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