It's Time to Mandate Vaccines

[RunTheBall]

On 12/5/2021 at 5:29 PM, Buffalo Timmy said:

It is not true that the omicron is currently being found in many more people vaccinated than unvaccinated? 

 

On 12/5/2021 at 9:40 PM, Buffalo Timmy said:

I am not sure what your argument is here, are you saying that the vaccine is great for the elderly therefore no one should question it for everyone? Or are you stating that medical companies who have been hit with billion dollar fines are always on the up and up? Lastly RNA is not like the other vaccines since there are no long term studies of its effects on people- we are literally about to hit year one of the large scale study- we had many years of vaccines before they ever became mandatory  previously. 

My argument was against the first statement which you wrote, which is false, and everything else you've been writing is just trying to blur the issue. 

 

I'm not making any other argument. 

 

As to your points 1) no where have I stated that the vaccine is great for everyone 2) no where have I mentioned pharmaceutical companies. 

 

I'll reiterate- I'm anti vaccine mandate. I believe the vaccine is one of several effective treatments we have for Covid. It was absolutely oversold - everyone thought it would prevent covid, it does not. It does prevent severe illness and hospitalizations though, which is a fact. 

 

I think pharm companies along with Democrats, CDC and NIH were instrumental in downplaying the early treatment of covid in order to push vaccines and make $$. 

 

This virus came from the Wuhan lab until proven otherwise. Every other zoonotic virus we know of has an identified animal vector. They found SARS in 5 months, MERS in 2 months. It's been almost 3 years and they can't find an animal carrying Covid. I believe it's because it escaped from the lab.  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

23 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

 

My argument was against the first statement which you wrote, which is false, and everything else you've been writing is just trying to blur the issue. 

 

I'm not making any other argument. 

 

As to your points 1) no where have I stated that the vaccine is great for everyone 2) no where have I mentioned pharmaceutical companies. 

 

I'll reiterate- I'm anti vaccine mandate. I believe the vaccine is one of several effective treatments we have for Covid. It was absolutely oversold - everyone thought it would prevent covid, it does not. It does prevent severe illness and hospitalizations though, which is a fact. 

 

I think pharm companies along with Democrats, CDC and NIH were instrumental in downplaying the early treatment of covid in order to push vaccines and make $$. 

 

This virus came from the Wuhan lab until proven otherwise. Every other zoonotic virus we know of has an identified animal vector. They found SARS in 5 months, MERS in 2 months. It's been almost 3 years and they can't find an animal carrying Covid. I believe it's because it escaped from the lab.  

This is an interesting post, and points to the reason people are hesitant to jump in and trust blindly.  

 

• It's quite reasonable to assume that the virus was created and the original infection started at the lab;
• It's reasonable to question whether or not the 'escape' was accidental or intentional;
• The lab itself is in China, a country known for brutality and a complete disregard for human rights;
• The lab and/or experiments performed therein have the fingerprints of the scientific community of the US all over it;
• The face of the US response to COVID has ties to the research, and obviously would benefit greatly from the any messaging pointing away from his/his organizations involvement in development or subsequent infection;
• The face of the US response to COVID is on record as having taken multiple conflicting positions on the what the US response to COVID must look like;
• You've pointed out here the significant profit motive for key players in this game, each and every one a member of the 'leadership' cabal we're asked to trust without question;
• The same folks who told us in 2020 not to trust a vaccine developed under one administration now ask us to trust them without question;
• We were lead to believe that shuttering in and locking down was the answer to successful pandemic management, and while most complied, we were also lead to believe the virus hovered over mass gatherings, a presidential inauguration, and virtually every private party or gathering attended by political operatives urging or demanding compliance;

 

It's really a wonder anyone chooses to vaccinate.  

 

[Tiberius]

56 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

 

It's really a wonder anyone chooses to vaccinate.  

 

Trump got the booster 

[The Frankish Reich]

31 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

This is an interesting post, and points to the reason people are hesitant to jump in and trust blindly.  

 

• It's quite reasonable to assume that the virus was created and the original infection started at the lab;
  • YES
• It's reasonable to question whether or not the 'escape' was accidental or intentional;
  • NO. There is no reason to believe that China or Chinese lab workers intentionally released the virus INTO WUHAN
• The lab itself is in China, a country known for brutality and a complete disregard for human rights;
  • Largely TRUE, but irrelevant.
• The lab and/or experiments performed therein have the fingerprints of the scientific community of the US all over it;
  • NO. We have seen (not surprisingly) that the network of researchers is interconnected globally, but the rest of the statement ("fingerprints of the scientific community all over it") is unsupported.
• The face of the US response to COVID has ties to the research, and obviously would benefit greatly from the any messaging pointing away from his/his organizations involvement in development or subsequent infection;
  • Largely TRUE as a general point (if an entity fears being implicated in a disaster it is a natural reaction for that entity to try to minimize its involvement), but also largely unsupported.
• The face of the US response to COVID is on record as having taken multiple conflicting positions on the what the US response to COVID must look like;
  • NO. The US response has been, surprisingly, largely consistent from the time Trump admitted we have a problem (that is, after his "soon we'll have no cases" type responses) until the present: (1) our longer-term response would be in developing/distributing effective vaccines, and to a lesser extent therapeutics; (2) until such vaccines bring the number of serious cases into an acceptable range, to rely on social mechanisms (distancing, shutdowns, masks, and unfortunately to a much lesser extent (because it is probably more effective) ventilation).
• You've pointed out here the significant profit motive for key players in this game, each and every one a member of the 'leadership' cabal we're asked to trust without question;
  • NO. Now we've plummeted from a rational discussion of how labs, industries, bureaucracies and governments respond to incentives into irrational, conspiratorial nonsense; the use of the term "cabal" proves that.
• The same folks who told us in 2020 not to trust a vaccine developed under one administration now ask us to trust them without question;
  • NO. There was some early political gamesmanship in the United States as there always is, but that was on the order of "Trump is rushing through vaccine approval to help him win reelection." There was no general idea among the future members of the Biden Administration that vaccines are suspect, and, of course, the career people who have remained through both administrations have been resolutely pro-vaccine, and resolutely focused on letting the normal processes go forward, even when expediting vaccine approval even more would probably have been a better policy decision.
• We were lead to believe that shuttering in and locking down was the answer to successful pandemic management, and while most complied, we were also lead to believe the virus hovered over mass gatherings, a presidential inauguration, and virtually every private party or gathering attended by political operatives urging or demanding compliance;
  • INCOHERENT. "Shuttering in and locking down" was effective - remarkably effective! - in allowing us to avoid the nightmare scenario that was developing in NYC and many other locations in the United States. The second part - "we were lead to believe the virus hovered over mass gatherings" - is simply ridiculous. The virus DID spread rapidly in certain mass gatherings. The Trump Amy Coney Barrett nomination event was, of course, Exhibit A. I don't even know what the rest of this is supposed to mean as it has the character of the infamous "old man shakes fist at cloud" meme.

 

It's really a wonder anyone chooses to vaccinate.  

 

It's really not a wonder that some people refuse to vaccinate when their logic falls apart in this manner. I have kindly pointed this out above.

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Trump got the booster 

Yes, he did. He's more than a little bit coy about admitting it, but admit it he did.

But I thought he was in on the secretive cabal that is foisting this poison on us! O, you false god, what that you caused me to worship you!!

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

It's really not a wonder that some people refuse to vaccinate when their logic falls apart in this manner. I have kindly pointed this out above.

Yes, he did. He's more than a little bit coy about admitting it, but admit it he did.

But I thought he was in on the secretive cabal that is foisting this poison on us! O, you false god, what that you caused me to worship you!!

He's also hanging out with that dirt bag Bill O'Reilly. And people say he never would of been at a pool party with Epstein, ya, ok 

[The Frankish Reich]

4 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

He's also hanging out with that dirt bag Bill O'Reilly. And people say he never would of been at a pool party with Epstein, ya, ok 

Did Trump hold the falafel at the pool, or would O'Reilly not let go of it?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/fb-5533437/BILL-OREILLY-FALAFEL-PHONE-SEX-CALL-PRODUCER.html

 

The response will be this:

- Bill Clinton was on Epstein's plane more times than Trump! To which I say: isn't it time we have a President who was NOT on Epstein's plane?

- Trump distanced himself from Epstein when he found out Epstein was "recruiting" underage girls. To which I say: (1) Trump joked about Epstein liking much younger women/girls, which doesn't really show a high disgust reaction; (2) Trump apparently distanced himself when Epstein hit on a teenage Mar-a-Lago member, which suggests that his distancing was more of a "don't sh!t where you eat" thing rather than moral outrage.

Edited December 21, 2021 by The Frankish Reich

[Tiberius]

12 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Did Trump hold the falafel at the pool, or would O'Reilly not let go of it?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/fb-5533437/BILL-OREILLY-FALAFEL-PHONE-SEX-CALL-PRODUCER.html

 

The response will be this:

- Bill Clinton was on Epstein's plane more times than Trump! To which I say: isn't it time we have a President who was NOT on Epstein's plane?

- Trump distanced himself from Epstein when he found out Epstein was "recruiting" underage girls. To which I say: (1) Trump joked about Epstein liking much younger women/girls, which doesn't really show a high disgust reaction; (2) Trump apparently distanced himself when Epstein hit on a teenage Mar-a-Lago member, which suggests that his distancing was more of a "don't sh!t where you eat" thing rather than moral outrage.

Oh, Trump also gave a Cabinet level job to the "prosecutor" who gave Jeffery a slap on the...wrist. Why would Trump help they guy out so much? Hmmm...

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Trump got the booster 

Good for him. He made a personal decision to get a booster shot. After all this time....Do you really not understand that's all those on the Right are recommending? Really?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

It's really not a wonder that some people refuse to vaccinate when their logic falls apart in this manner. I have kindly pointed this out above.

Yes, he did. He's more than a little bit coy about admitting it, but admit it he did.

But I thought he was in on the secretive cabal that is foisting this poison on us! O, you false god, what that you caused me to worship you!!

I appreciate the polite reply and the opinions you shared within your post.  Let's get to it:

 

  

It's quite reasonable to assume that the virus was created and the original infection started at the lab;

YES

We agree here. 

It's reasonable to question whether or not the 'escape' was accidental or intentional;

NO. There is no reason to believe that China or Chinese lab workers intentionally released the virus INTO WUHAN

Your faith in the Chinese government is noted.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/07/22/1019244601/china-who-coronavirus-lab-leak-theory

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/07/22/china-covid-who-wuhan/

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/will-world-ever-solve-mystery-covid-19s-origin

 

Common sense suggests that absent a complete and thorough international investigation, the cause of the 'escape'  remains unknown.  In addition, given the impact on the entire world this pandemic caused, it's hard to imagine the Chinese government refusing to assist the scientific community with a through investigation to ensure it never happens again.  Personally, I would be surprised to learn that any professional investigation would start with "Hey, any suggestion someone did this intentionally is off the table".  I guess you see it differently. 

 

The lab itself is in China, a country known for brutality and a complete disregard for human rights;

Largely TRUE, but irrelevant.

"Largely"?     Uh, sure. 

 

The lab and/or experiments performed therein have the fingerprints of the scientific community of the US all over it;

NO. We have seen (not surprisingly) that the network of researchers is interconnected globally, but the rest of the statement ("fingerprints of the scientific community all over it") is unsupported.

 

It seems silly to argue whether our government was involved in the research that went on in Wuhan, but if you feel better threading the needle with phrases like "network of researchers interconnected globally" to acknowledge our government was involved, that's fine.  Interestingly, a "network of researchers interconnected globally" to determine the cause of the escape would go a long way toward figuring out what happened.  Still, the Chinese government has declined the opportunity to do so--or as you might say they have been  "Largely uncooperative".  

 

The face of the US response to COVID has ties to the research, and obviously would benefit greatly from the any messaging pointing away from his/his organizations involvement in development or subsequent infection;

Largely TRUE as a general point (if an entity fears being implicated in a disaster it is a natural reaction for that entity to try to minimize its involvement), but also largely unsupported.

I'll take this as a YES.   

 

The face of the US response to COVID is on record as having taken multiple conflicting positions on the what the US response to COVID must look like;

NO. The US response has been, surprisingly, largely consistent from the time Trump admitted we have a problem (that is, after his "soon we'll have no cases" type responses) until the present: (1) our longer-term response would be in developing/distributing effective vaccines, and to a lesser extent therapeutics; (2) until such vaccines bring the number of serious cases into an acceptable range, to rely on social mechanisms (distancing, shutdowns, masks, and unfortunately to a much lesser extent (because it is probably more effective) ventilation).

You may be the last person in America who believes that Faucci has consistently delivered the same message.  

You've pointed out here the significant profit motive for key players in this game, each and every one a member of the 'leadership' cabal we're asked to trust without question;

NO. Now we've plummeted from a rational discussion of how labs, industries, bureaucracies and governments respond to incentives into irrational, conspiratorial nonsense; the use of the term "cabal" proves that.

This one made me laugh.  You bend over backwards to defend the Chinese government's handling of the pandemic, defend Biden/Harris speaking out against trust in the science of the vaccine, claim Dr Faucci has been largely consistent from mask wearing, to stopping the spread in 14 days and the like, but THE line in the sand here is I used a word you didn't like?  That's hysterical!

 

The same folks who told us in 2020 not to trust a vaccine developed under one administration now ask us to trust them without question;

NO. There was some early political gamesmanship in the United States as there always is, but that was on the order of "Trump is rushing through vaccine approval to help him win reelection." There was no general idea among the future members of the Biden Administration that vaccines are suspect, and, of course, the career people who have remained through both administrations have been resolutely pro-vaccine, and resolutely focused on letting the normal processes go forward, even when expediting vaccine approval even more would probably have been a better policy decision.

"Political gamesmanship" as hundreds of thousands were dying and vaccines were being developed to save the world?  Jesus, you are a true believer in the people in charge.  

 

We were lead to believe that shuttering in and locking down was the answer to successful pandemic management, and while most complied, we were also lead to believe the virus hovered over mass gatherings, a presidential inauguration, and virtually every private party or gathering attended by political operatives urging or demanding compliance;

 

INCOHERENT. "Shuttering in and locking down" was effective - remarkably effective! - in allowing us to avoid the nightmare scenario that was developing in NYC and many other locations in the United States. The second part - "we were lead to believe the virus hovered over mass gatherings" - is simply ridiculous. The virus DID spread rapidly in certain mass gatherings. The Trump Amy Coney Barrett nomination event was, of course, Exhibit A. I don't even know what the rest of this is supposed to mean as it has the character of the infamous "old man shakes fist at cloud" meme.

If you struggle to follow the paragraph, Frankish, blame your teachers!  I get it--the easy out of a disagreement is to suggest that I'm out  on my front lawn raging at the weather, and if that's your kink, have at it.  It's reveals a certain weakness in you, in my opinion, but that doesn't make you wrong.   All I can tell you is that in a time when our political leadership was locking down just about every aspect of American life, some in political leadership encouraged massive amounts of people to gather, assemble, demonstrate in massive numbers and return home to their communities thereafter.   There's a disconnect there, Frank, and all the anger I've directed at the stratocumulus formation floating above my head doesn't change the fact that people can smell b*llsh*t a mile away.  

 

Imagine how many lives could have been saved had one brave leader, one brave democrat, or one brave scientist stood up and said "Your cause is just, your feelings understandable, but you're contributing to the spread of COVID and worse yet, are taking it home to your communities and to those most vulnerable".   Then again, death was good for the dems in 2020. 

 

But, sure, AMY COMEY BARRETT!   

 

 

It's really a wonder anyone chooses to vaccinate.  

 

It's really not a wonder that some people refuse to vaccinate when their logic falls apart in this manner. I have kindly pointed this out above.

 The last couple lines here sound like you're playing White Goodman from Dodgeball.   

 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[billsfan_34]

On 7/20/2021 at 3:18 PM, The Frankish Reich said:

No. Get your damn vaccine, just like your hero Trump did.

81 percent are vaccinated. Guess what? This “vaccination” isn’t one. This is a therapeutic. The spread continues. We are on like scene 3 of this nightmare. 
 

But but, Pfizer has seen record profits. No matter what side of the aisle you are on, big pharmaceutical is morally and ethically disgusting. Moderna contracted with the US government in 2016 to start development of a CV vaccine! 
 

Next, we have NIH funding gain of function (actually prior, as 2013 bat lady was sent back to China). 
 

Then bam, here comes the CV One Nine, panick was instilled and vaccines were pushed to the likes that we have never seen before.

 

Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. Normally, when there is smoke there is fire. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

INCOHERENT. "Shuttering in and locking down" was effective - remarkably effective! - in allowing us to avoid the nightmare scenario that was developing in NYC and many other locations in the United States. The second part - "we were lead to believe the virus hovered over mass gatherings" - is simply ridiculous. The virus DID spread rapidly in certain mass gatherings. The Trump Amy Coney Barrett nomination event was, of course, Exhibit A. I don't even know what the rest of this is supposed to mean as it has the character of the infamous "old man shakes fist at cloud" meme.

If you struggle to follow the paragraph, Frankish, blame your teachers!  I get it--the easy out of a disagreement is to suggest that I'm out  on my front lawn raging at the weather, and if that's your kink, have at it.  It's reveals a certain weakness in you, in my opinion, but that doesn't make you wrong.   All I can tell you is that in a time when our political leadership was locking down just about every aspect of American life, some in political leadership encouraged massive amounts of people to gather, assemble, demonstrate in massive numbers and return home to their communities thereafter.   There's a disconnect there, Frank, and all the anger I've directed at the stratocumulus formation floating above my head doesn't change the fact that people can smell b*llsh*t a mile away.  

 

Imagine how many lives could have been saved had one brave leader, one brave democrat, or one brave scientist stood up and said "Your cause is just, your feelings understandable, but you're contributing to the spread of COVID and worse yet, are taking it home to your communities and to those most vulnerable".   Then again, death was good for the dems in 2020. 

 

But, sure, AMY COMEY BARRETT!   

I will just focus on this, because it was meant to be your grand conclusion - the end of the movie where suddenly you see how all the disparate plot elements tie together.

 

First, you don't refute my point: "shuttering in and locking down was remarkably effective" in lowering the transmission rate and avoiding a true nightmare scenario from developing. It's easy to mock it. Haha, "15 days to slow the spread," haha, are we going to be doing lockdowns forevermore?" But ... it worked. It bent the curve in a clear and dramatic fashion. In fact, a lot of that DID happen in the first 15 days, with repercussions continuing for a few months until the second wave hit. By then we WERE more prepared for it. It saved lives. I wish it hadn't been necessary. It was.

 

Second, you don't even attempt to rebut my comment that there is no support for what is, at its root, a mega-conspiracy theory. Remember, one of your propositions is that bureaucracies and governments will try to hide the fact that their policies and/or negligence caused the harm. I accepted that proposition. Guess what? It applies to the United States, to the NIH, to Dr. Fauci, and (wait for it) to the government of the People's Republic of China too! You may know Hanlon's Razor: "never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." China is acting in accord with your proposition. Yet you jump to the conclusion that failure to fully cooperate in an investigation is evidence of an intentional leak. And then you make further unwarranted leaps: "big pharma" (kudos for not using that phrase, but it's really what you're saying, isn't it?) would benefit from something like this; hence, big pharma can't just be waiting in the wings, ready to jump in to try to do good (or even to talk the Administration into Warp Speed); it just MUST be a nefarious actor either somehow causally involved in the spread/creation of COVID, or involved in keeping COVID around so they can keep selling their damn vaccines. This all amounts to "geez, isn't it neat that whatever happens in the world, Big Pharma seems to get richer." Well, consider me unconvinced.

 

Finally, I mention Amy Coney Barrett not because she's the evil Amy Coney Barrett, but because it was the most clear/obvious/public demonstration that large indoor (much of what happened was indoors even though the part the public saw was outdoors) events can be a very bad idea indeed. And you've done nothing to refute that.

 

 

[BillStime]

If only the NFL mandated vaccines Cole would be playing this weekend.

 

thanks Big Ditz

[Orlando Buffalo]

6 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

 

My argument was against the first statement which you wrote, which is false, and everything else you've been writing is just trying to blur the issue. 

 

I'm not making any other argument. 

 

As to your points 1) no where have I stated that the vaccine is great for everyone 2) no where have I mentioned pharmaceutical companies. 

 

I'll reiterate- I'm anti vaccine mandate. I believe the vaccine is one of several effective treatments we have for Covid. It was absolutely oversold - everyone thought it would prevent covid, it does not. It does prevent severe illness and hospitalizations though, which is a fact. 

 

I think pharm companies along with Democrats, CDC and NIH were instrumental in downplaying the early treatment of covid in order to push vaccines and make $$. 

 

This virus came from the Wuhan lab until proven otherwise. Every other zoonotic virus we know of has an identified animal vector. They found SARS in 5 months, MERS in 2 months. It's been almost 3 years and they can't find an animal carrying Covid. I believe it's because it escaped from the lab.  

My initial statement is true- What is wrong with you? I once again point out Cornell with 100% vaccine mandate with 10% getting it in two weeks and NY which is highly vaccinated but exploding with Covid. Show me where anyone can show less vaccination is less likely to get Omicron? I will take additional information but stop making your beliefs be more important than the data.

[Beach]

40 minutes ago, BillStime said:

If only the NFL mandated vaccines Cole would be playing this weekend.

 

thanks Big Ditz

no, he woulda missed all the games

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

7 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I will just focus on this, because it was meant to be your grand conclusion - the end of the movie where suddenly you see how all the disparate plot elements tie together.

Please, illuminate me.  What is my grand conclusion?   Be sure to read the words I wrote, not what you think they mean. 

7 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

 

First, you don't refute my point: "shuttering in and locking down was remarkably effective" in lowering the transmission rate and avoiding a true nightmare scenario from developing. It's easy to mock it. Haha, "15 days to slow the spread," haha, are we going to be doing lockdowns forevermore?" But ... it worked. It bent the curve in a clear and dramatic fashion. In fact, a lot of that DID happen in the first 15 days, with repercussions continuing for a few months until the second wave hit. By then we WERE more prepared for it. It saved lives. I wish it hadn't been necessary. It was.

 

Frank, Boobala, I’m not trying to convince you of anything.  You seem a devotee of the fixed mindset here, and I assume that offers you some sense of safety and reassurance.  I want to be clear here:  It’s ok for you to feel the way you do.  I simply feel differently.  
 

On the subject of lockdowns and shuttering in, well, the truth is…that never actually happened.  We most certainly did have many, many citizens shuttering in and locking it down.  Some did so willingly, some not so much.  On the other hand, throughout the lockdown of the compliant, hundreds of thousands of citizens refused to lock down at all.  In fact, the numbers likely ran into the millions.     What do you suppose, Frankish, the impact of those people interacting, intermingling, demonstrating was in COVID transmissions and the death count?   How many infections, how many sick, and how many dead would you say?   5?  50?  200?  10,000?   100,000?   
 

Believe it or not, I wish we had a nationwide commitment to the lockdown, and that dem leaders and our scientists has committed to it.   It would likely have resulted less in the flattening of the curve and  more like COVID infections/death dropping off a cliff.  But, politicians politic, right Frank? 
 

Back to the subject, it is inevitable that compliant  folks—Democrats, Republicans, Independents and non-voters would ultimately question the credibility of “leaders” who demanded they lock down, but who supported activities that were in direct contrast to everything the complaint were told under threat of law was absolutely vital to flattening the curve. 
 

7 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Second, you don't even attempt to rebut my comment that there is no support for what is, at its root, a mega-conspiracy theory. Remember, one of your propositions is that bureaucracies and governments will try to hide the fact that their policies and/or negligence caused the harm. I accepted that proposition. Guess what? It applies to the United States, to the NIH, to Dr. Fauci, and (wait for it) to the government of the People's Republic of China too! You may know Hanlon's Razor: "never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." China is acting in accord with your proposition. Yet you jump to the conclusion that failure to fully cooperate in an investigation is evidence of an intentional leak. And then you make further unwarranted leaps: "big pharma" (kudos for not using that phrase, but it's really what you're saying, isn't it?) would benefit from something like this; hence, big pharma can't just be waiting in the wings, ready to jump in to try to do good (or even to talk the Administration into Warp Speed); it just MUST be a nefarious actor either somehow causally involved in the spread/creation of COVID, or involved in keeping COVID around so they can keep selling their damn vaccines. This all amounts to "geez, isn't it neat that whatever happens in the world, Big Pharma seems to get richer." Well, consider me unconvinced.

You lost me here, Frank, and I feel like it’s because somewhere along the way you became enchanted with the sound of your own voice in your head .  I did not suggest a massive conspiracy was in play, did not claim to have evidence of the robber barons of the pharmaceutical industry preying on the innocent, or use the word nefarious to describe anyone’s actions (I like that word, but I’ll have to assume in this case it’s your rebuttal to my use of “cabal”).  I assure you, I would have no hesitation in sharing evidence of such things if I did even at the risk of you dropping some cheesey overused internet insult on me  again.   
 

You didn’t ask, but I’ll offer the following:  I have sought out the flu vaccine for about the last 15 years, long before friends and family of a similar age did so.  My first Pfizer vax was in April this year.  I encouraged my then 21 year old child to get the J&J vaccine in spite of his hesitancy, in spite of the fact that he had previously had COVID (his experience was consistent with those of the average healthy 21 year old male battling COVID, which is to say, uneventful).  I have yet to get the booster shot,  not because I am skeptical but December is a busy month for me and I really don’t want to deal with 3 or 4 days feeling crappy.    I own stock in AstraZeneca, Pfizer and J&J, never use the term Big Pharma because I think it’s sorta silly, and don’t think they implanted nano-bots into my body during vax.  
 

I do think it’s perfectly fine and absolutely necessary to discuss the origins of the virus, the unwillingness of the Chinese to cooperate, the failure of our government to insist on a thorough investigation, transparency on the role of the US govt in the research that precipitated to virus, and the evolution of his guidance over the past two years.  I’m not sure why that’s so controversial unless Tony Faucci is your uncle and you are in his will.   
 

 

7 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

 

Finally, I mention Amy Coney Barrett not because she's the evil Amy Coney Barrett, but because it was the most clear/obvious/public demonstration that large indoor (much of what happened was indoors even though the part the public saw was outdoors) events can be a very bad idea indeed. And you've done nothing to refute that.

I can’t help you here, I’m not sure what your fixation is with ACB but if it’ll help us move on I’ll gladly meet you in the middle and say “Huh, yeah, Amy Coney B.  Right??” in an exasperated tone. 
 

The bottom line is, and was, people are distrustful of the current leadership and guidance from Fauci, China and pharmaceutical companies.  You want to argue that point, great, but it changes nothing.  

[SoCal Deek]

This is of course purely anecdotal but everyone I know that’s gotten Covid in the last six months was fully vaccinated. 

[ALF]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

This is of course purely anecdotal but everyone I know that’s gotten Covid in the last six months was fully vaccinated. 

 

Serious question , did the fully vaccinated end up in the hospital and ICU ?  I know of recent Omicron cases for those with a booster are mild and test positive. 

[Orlando Buffalo]

38 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

Serious question , did the fully vaccinated end up in the hospital and ICU ?  I know of recent Omicron cases for those with a booster are mild and test positive. 

The profile of those I know that ended in the hospital that I know is 60+ years old, with multiple comorbidities, which I think is pretty much across the board for most. My son has one friend who actually got Delta bad enough that he was given the monoclonal antibodies but he was fine 24 hours after that. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, ALF said:

 

Serious question , did the fully vaccinated end up in the hospital and ICU ?  I know of recent Omicron cases for those with a booster are mild and test positive. 

I don’t know anyone who’s been hospitalized or died of Covid at any time during the pandemic 

[Tiberius]

20 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Good for him. He made a personal decision to get a booster shot. After all this time....Do you really not understand that's all those on the Right are recommending? Really?

He made a personal decision that all the right wing misinformation about vaccines is BS