It's Time to Mandate Vaccines

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Is that true?  Banned from social media?

 

 

 

As to the mRNA vaccine, no one knows what they put in their body.  If it's so safe then why the hold up with the FDA?  What are they waiting to see?  

 

I was told by my doctor quote "the risks of Covid are more serious then the vaccine" and I hear this most everywhere.  Makes no sense to me they might as well say "we don't know."

 

They don't say it's safe.  They weigh it against Covid.  All the time.  

 

A month ago my friend lost her brother and mother to covid. They both had a good 20 maybe 30 years (covid coma for a month and lack of testing told her she had something else).  Feel for her taking it hard. She got vaccinated afterwards. 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Buffalo Bills Fan

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

No I already proved you that vaccination is a state issue not a federal issue

 

And there's never been any forced inoculations in this country

 

Even in a state like New York that makes you get all those standard childhood vaccinations.. you can homeschool your kid and never give him those

 

Happens all the time 

 

So no there has never been mandated forced vaccinations across the board in this country

Yes, it typically has been a state issue. Under the U.S. Constitution, the federal government has only enumerated powers, not the general "police power" that the states have.

 

But ... yes, vaccines have been mandated! 

 

Here's a discussion of a city (cities derive their powers from the states)-mandated smallpox vaccination, upheld by the Supreme Court way, way back in 1905:

 

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/on-this-day-the-supreme-court-rules-on-vaccines-and-public-health

 

There is no constitutional principle that would preclude a state from mandating vaccines. And I'm not aware of anything that would prevent the federal government from mandating them for matters involving interstate commerce (air/train/bus travel, etc.).

 

People are fond of saying "it's my constitutional right." But you've got to find that right in the constitution, either state or federal, whichever applies. You won't find a right against being vaccinated. Oh, you could ask the Supreme Court to find a right out of the general principles enacted in the Bill of Rights much like the Supreme Court found a right to privacy, but then you've kind of got to accept the whole concept of the Court creating rights out of thin air, which is usually what people who don't like the activist courts rail against ....

[Unforgiven]

lol.

While your at it lets have masks for life too, 

people need to take meds and quit cnn

Edited July 20, 2021 by Unforgiven

[The Frankish Reich]

50 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

 

  

1. Most importantly if you think the government has the right to force people to get vaccinated do you think there are any limits on what the government can force you to do?  What about other vaccines?  What about other medical procedures?  If the government can force you to do anything from a medical perspective perhaps they can decide to kill terminally ill patients upon diagnosis.  No treatment or hospice.  Just a trip to the back of the building for a brief ceremony and then a blindfold and firing squad.  You might say that's absurd and it would never happen and its likely it won't but give them an inch and they take a mile is a fitting concept when dealing with a government that might see no limits to its power and nobody with the ability to stop them.

 

 

 

The idea of the right to some kind of control over one's own body has already been mentioned here.  I pointed out that there is no such overarching "right."

The proper example here isn't state-mandated killing of innocent people. It's the whole "right to die" thing. Assisted suicide has generally been against the law. Some think it shouldn't be, that it should be allowed. But that's what elected governments decide. I don't want a court to "find" a right to assisted suicide. I also don't want courts to "find" (somewhere, hidden in all that rightsy language in the constitution, the Declaration of Independence, etc., etc.) a right to not be vaccinated. 

This U.S. constitution is not some kind of hard libertarian document people make it out to be. It restrains the power of the federal government (and later, through the incorporation doctrine, state governments), but it doesn't create some kind of Ayn Rand fantasyland. The government has the right to make me work one or two days a week for their benefit; that's what taxation does.

[LeviF]

OP, poast proof of 15% body fat and ability to do 12 good form pull-ups before you lecture us on health. 

[Big Gun]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Enough already.

Guess what? It's constitutional, and it has been for a century:

 

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/07/20/federal-judge-upholds-indiana-universitys-covid-19-vaccine-requirement

 

The Indiana University case cites two early 20th century Supreme Court cases upholding vaccine mandates.

 

Vaccine relucatance - or worse, outright anti-vaxxer sentiment - is about to turn an acute, time-limited problem into a never-ending problem. If the percent vaccinated doesn't uptick considerably in the next couple months, look forward to online education, mask mandates, maxed-out emergency rooms, travel bans, all that fun stuff all over again.

 

We've heard you anti-vaxxers. Six months into mass vaccination and your irrational fears have been dispelled. For the obstinate "I won't get vaccinated just because they want us to" -- why they hell did Trump and Melania and family get vaccinated if it's some kind of radical lefty plot?

 

There's still time. Start with simple things: let private businesses require proof of vaccination status. It's their damn business, it's just a continuation of that old "We Reserve Right to Refuse Service to Anyone" sign that I grew up with. If that isn't working, proceed to the next step: vaccine mandates for various higher-risk activities like colleges, in-person high school attendance, air travel. If that isn't working, then go full-on vaccine mandate. 

 

When did we get to be a country of such whiners? It's there, it's free (at least to you, the recipient), it's working, it's the way out of this mess. Do. It. Now.

 

 

Nope

[BillStime]

 

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

No. Get your damn vaccine, just like your hero Trump did.

What you're saying is that your hero Biden is clueless for not mandating this tomorrow then?  So he has what's approaching 200,000 dead Americans on his hands. 

 

So, why hasn't he already?  He has the White House and both chambers of Congress.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

 

Awful from her response to lol at that with dead people. Sickening.  Don't want too see anyone hurt.  Always help others out when losing a loved one. Just being a good person to others.

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

What you're saying is that your hero Biden is clueless for not mandating this tomorrow then?  So he has what's approaching 200,000 dead Americans on his hands. 

 

So, why hasn't he already?  He has the White House and both chambers of Congress.

I would like to see some kind of vaccine passport immediately. I don't know why Biden hasn't done it. He is certainly not my hero. "Not Trump" =/= My Hero.

17 minutes ago, Big Gun said:

Nope

That's it? "Nope?"

I just gave you the case citation. "Nope" is not considered an argument. A contrary case citation would be an argument. Get to work ...

[Chef Jim]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I would like to see some kind of vaccine passport immediately. I don't know why Biden hasn't done it. He is certainly not my hero. "Not Trump" =/= My Hero.

 

And how would you plan on using this so called "vaccine passport"?  

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I would like to see some kind of vaccine passport immediately. I don't know why Biden hasn't done it. He is certainly not my hero. "Not Trump" =/= My Hero.

Fair enough, so if I get you correctly, Trump is the villain even though he administrated the invention of and production of the vaccine, but Biden gets a total pass when all he had to do is stick it in your arm?   OK.......

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm just working from your post.

Edited July 20, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[Big Blitz]

47 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

 

A month ago my friend lost her brother and mother to covid. They both had a good 20 maybe 30 years (covid coma for a month and lack of testing told her she had something else).  Feel for her taking it hard. She got vaccinated afterwards. 

 

 

 

 

Dam man that's awful.  

 

Were they not able or willing to get vaccinated?

[BillStime]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I would like to see some kind of vaccine passport immediately. I don't know why Biden hasn't done it. He is certainly not my hero. "Not Trump" =/= My Hero.

Agreed but their masters manipulate these idiots even tho we all had to have immunization cards and records back in the day.

[Big Gun]

9 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I would like to see some kind of vaccine passport immediately. I don't know why Biden hasn't done it. He is certainly not my hero. "Not Trump" =/= My Hero.

That's it? "Nope?"

I just gave you the case citation. "Nope" is not considered an argument. A contrary case citation would be an argument. Get to work ...

Nah, I'll continue to go with the numbers that say even by chance if you contract covid there is over a 99% recoverable rate. Not to mention all the Dr reports that dont support the shot. I'm good, I'll do me you do you!

[The Frankish Reich]

15 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Fair enough, so if I get you correctly, Trump is the villain even though he administrated the invention of and production of the vaccine, but Biden gets a total pass when all he had to do is stick it in your arm?   OK.......

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm just working from your post.

NO! Trump is not the villain here. Trump got the vaccine! Trump exacerbated the problem in many ways, but I agree here: Trump was instrumental in making the vaccine available - Operation Warp Speed (remember, it wasn't the development of the vaccines; it was purchasing/stockpiling reserves of the promising vaccines even before they were approved for emergency use) was probably his single biggest success of his presidency. It's not my fault that his most ardent supporters seem to be the among the most reluctant to follow his lead. Nor is it my fault that he weirdly decided to run on "it's not a crisis" rather than "it is a crisis and I'm out in front dealing with it and trying to solve it."

 

Biden does not get a pass here. 

 

- The FDA needs to move quickly to fully approve at least Pfizer and Moderna 

- Once that happens, I would like to see the federal government go to the limits of its power to mandate vaccines, and state governments to go the rest of the way

 

 

[BillStime]

10 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

NO! Trump is not the villain here. Trump got the vaccine! Trump exacerbated the problem in many ways, but I agree here: Trump was instrumental in making the vaccine available - Operation Warp Speed (remember, it wasn't the development of the vaccines; it was purchasing/stockpiling reserves of the promising vaccines even before they were approved for emergency use) was probably his single biggest success of his presidency. It's not my fault that his most ardent supporters seem to be the among the most reluctant to follow his lead. Nor is it my fault that he weirdly decided to run on "it's not a crisis" rather than "it is a crisis and I'm out in front dealing with it and trying to solve it."

 

Biden does not get a pass here. 

 

- The FDA needs to move quickly to fully approve at least Pfizer and Moderna 

- Once that happens, I would like to see the federal government go to the limits of its power to mandate vaccines, and state governments to go the rest of the way

 

 

Pfizer had nothing to do w Warp Speed

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

3 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Enough already.

Guess what? It's constitutional, and it has been for a century:

 

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/07/20/federal-judge-upholds-indiana-universitys-covid-19-vaccine-requirement

 

The Indiana University case cites two early 20th century Supreme Court cases upholding vaccine mandates.

 

Vaccine relucatance - or worse, outright anti-vaxxer sentiment - is about to turn an acute, time-limited problem into a never-ending problem. If the percent vaccinated doesn't uptick considerably in the next couple months, look forward to online education, mask mandates, maxed-out emergency rooms, travel bans, all that fun stuff all over again.

 

We've heard you anti-vaxxers. Six months into mass vaccination and your irrational fears have been dispelled. For the obstinate "I won't get vaccinated just because they want us to" -- why they hell did Trump and Melania and family get vaccinated if it's some kind of radical lefty plot?

 

There's still time. Start with simple things: let private businesses require proof of vaccination status. It's their damn business, it's just a continuation of that old "We Reserve Right to Refuse Service to Anyone" sign that I grew up with. If that isn't working, proceed to the next step: vaccine mandates for various higher-risk activities like colleges, in-person high school attendance, air travel. If that isn't working, then go full-on vaccine mandate. 

 

When did we get to be a country of such whiners? It's there, it's free (at least to you, the recipient), it's working, it's the way out of this mess. Do. It. Now.

 

 

Frankish, while I disagree with some of what you wrote, I'm coming around to your way of thinking.  First, the disagreements:

 

1. Currently, the decision to vax or not vax is between an individual and his/her doctor. There is no "we" as in "we've heard from you"---those folks aren't talking to you.  They don't care what you think and frankly, you lack skin in the game simply because the decision is deeply personal.  Take care of you, and yours, and respect the rights of others.  That's what's really cool. 

 

2.  The vaccine reluctance group and anti-vaxxers are two different groups, and should be acknowledged as such.  

 

3.   'Six months in' and the declaration that fears are irrational and dispelled...yowza dude.  Six months is a pimple on the ass of time, a sneeze, a whisper in the wind.  Respectfully, you've been bamboozled if you think the vast majority of the hesitant and anti crowd is out there worried about a radical lefty plot.  Some, yes, but most are just trying to get through life and make sense of it all. 

 

4. "Start" with business owners?  Seriously?  If 50% of the customer base is vaxxed, the other 50% are not.  Why make the local sammich shop the bully on the block?   It simply ain't their job. The government sets the standard as near as I can tell, every business owner I have visited has made the correct decision for the business itself---wear a mask if you want, non-vaccinated folks should mask up, and onward we go. 

 

5.  I've not heard any whining at all from the vaccine reluctant crowd.  I've heard concerns about the necessity, concerns about long term effects, but mostly, those folks just want to be left alone.  Honor that request. 

 

Now, the common ground part.  

 

The simplest solution to the problem you (and some others here) are complaining about is Executive Action by Joe Biden.  He controls just about everything in Washington these days, the media is on his side, and he could provide clarity and cover to business owners to act as you have outlined. 

 

You correctly noted that Team Trump was vaccinated, so the sentiment that supporters of Trump re following his lead is just plain silly.  We know for certain that dem leadership sent mixed signals on the trustworthiness of the vaccine being developed, so a Biden decree resolves all that.  

 

It seems to me that Biden has really failed in leadership here.  The vax is either voluntary or it isn't, and Biden seems to lack the nuts to push this agenda forward.  Trump served up the vaccine on a platter, wtf did it get off the rails???  Why not just get to it? 

Edited July 20, 2021 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[SoCal Deek]

13 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

NO! Trump is not the villain here. Trump got the vaccine! Trump exacerbated the problem in many ways, but I agree here: Trump was instrumental in making the vaccine available - Operation Warp Speed (remember, it wasn't the development of the vaccines; it was purchasing/stockpiling reserves of the promising vaccines even before they were approved for emergency use) was probably his single biggest success of his presidency. It's not my fault that his most ardent supporters seem to be the among the most reluctant to follow his lead. Nor is it my fault that he weirdly decided to run on "it's not a crisis" rather than "it is a crisis and I'm out in front dealing with it and trying to solve it."

 

Biden does not get a pass here. 

 

- The FDA needs to move quickly to fully approve at least Pfizer and Moderna 

- Once that happens, I would like to see the federal government go to the limits of its power to mandate vaccines, and state governments to go the rest of the way

 

 

Thanks for clarifying.  Again, you were the one who brought the past President into this, and yet he has literally NOTHING to do with the topic.  He is out of office and can't mandate anything.  Maybe he would if he was still there.  So....I guess we wait for Joe to appoint Kamala to take the lead on this one and see how long it takes her to tell us why she isn't doing anything.   Or, maybe she'll go another quest for the 'root causes'.

[BillStime]

31 minutes ago, Big Gun said:

Nah, I'll continue to go with the numbers that say even by chance if you contract covid there is over a 99% recoverable rate. Not to mention all the Dr reports that dont support the shot. I'm good, I'll do me you do you!