It's Time to Mandate Vaccines

[Beast]

38 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I can assure you the scientific consensus supports vaccination

 

Consensus. 

 

In other words, science shopping.

[plenzmd1]

yep, those vaccines just working exactly as advertised.

 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

Some Black Actors and Athletes Won’t Spout the Party Line About Vaccines.

 

One way to shut down discussion is to depict anyone who disagrees with you as an evil monster.

 

In this case, the popular conception of the vaccine skeptic is a MAGA-hatted redneck chewin’ his tobaccy whilst beatin’ his younguns and rapin’ his sister-wife.

 

Those people do exist, but that’s hardly the only group of Americans who don’t like the way things are going. The dissenters aren’t just white folks, or Republicans, or Trump voters, or any of the other boogeymen under the bed of the average lib. One voice of reason in all this is… wait, is this right? [Black-ish star] Anthony Anderson?

 

* * * * * * * *

The THR piece also notes that Letitia Wright, who plays the Black Panther’s super-genius sister Shuri in the Marvel movies, has also expressed dissenting views on vaccines.

 

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/478062/

 

 

 

Move along, nothing to see here, citizen.

 

 

.

 

[oldmanfan]

10 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

Consensus. 

 

In other words, science shopping.

No, in other words how science works.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Well this is the issue, isn’t it?  Is it about the individual or about the society?  A global pandemic hits and people ask what’s in it for me, rather than how can I help my neighbor.  
 

Your last paragraph speaks volumes.  The mortality rate among vaccinated is at least 10 fold lower than unvaccinated, hospitalization rates are much higher with the unvaccinated, yet you talk about death and suffering in vaccinated.  The Modena thing, I can’t find any numbers on with respect to actual risk of myocarditis, only that it’s very rare, and if it’s like the Israeli data it’s maybe 7 cases in a million and most all resolve.  And Sweden didn’t tell young people not to get vaccinated but to choose a different vaccine.  But somehow that’s construed as worse that getting Covid when the data says otherwise.

 

People say the CDC should get better spokespeople and so on.  But it won’t matter because we now live in a society that is no longer a society, where the guy next you doesn’t give a damn about you, and where actual scientific knowledge is thrown on the alter of social media-hyped insanity.

 

And again, thanks for being an organ donor.  

I think sometimes it's about the individual, sometimes it's about society.  I think it's that way in life, generally.  Sometimes we help our neighbor, the one who owns the local hardware store, sometimes we pop over to the Home Depot to get rock bottom prices without a second thought.  Sometimes we support higher taxes on the other guy while we benefit from the lower tax rate, or vice versa.  Sometimes we support the other guy's president, sometimes the other guy cooks up a McCarthy-esque Russian conspiracy grift to attempt to destroy yours. 

 

As far as my last paragraph, you're swinging at the wrong target.  I'm vaxed and strongly encouraged my vax-resistant son to get the jab.  I'm still not sure that was the right call.   All I am saying is it is perfectly normal, 100% understandable and an indisputable fact that young people are amazingly consistent.  Your perspective is they should take one for the team, that they should disregard the Moderna problem and just jump to another vax.  People are inquisitive by nature...7 months after touting Moderna as the super cure wonder drug,  suddenly the gov says "Ah, just do Pfizer..." and you don't think the natural question for a person likely convinced he doesn't need any vaccine to begin with is "What happens when they find out the Pfizer shot is dangerous in 6 months?".  7 out of a million ain't bad odds, but  not as good as 0 out of a million if they will generally tolerate COVID with low risk of death.  

 

I think you still miss the larger point, so I'll mention it and ask you one more time:

 

Setting aside your indignation that some folks are distrustful of what the CDC, Faucci and the rest say, would you not acknowledge that it is true that the overwhelmingly vast majority of young people tolerate exposure to COVID and subsequent infection very well?    

 

My son uses an e-cigarette.  I have told him 538 times that this may be one of the most foolish things he can do, that he's inhaling chemicals into his lungs, and that the long term effects are lunknown but potentially catastrophic.  I'm 100% accurate on this count, I'm not a medical professional and he trusts me.  I'm surely going to have to have this dialogue another 538 times before it sinks in.    Given our relationship and his response to my feedback, what's the relative likelihood he will listen to  the CDC and the Fauch when--whether you choose to acknowledge it or not---the guidance has been hypocritical, confusing and has evolved or changed multiple times.  To boot, the uneasy alliance in this gain of function research, inconsistencies on how or why this COVID crisis started, and the massive amount of money changing hands here is a recipe for disaster from a trust perspective.  Sure, you with your training at age 60+ can sagely tell him "But that's just science and science is hard..." but he's probably not going to listen you either.  One thing though--he does not think in any way, shape or form that he's going to be responsible for your death from COVID, he's simply not wired that way. The same kid would likely sacrifice life and limb to drag you out of your Porsche 911 if you had an accident and your car started on fire.  

 

It's not just a matter of "better spokesmen", based on what we now know, Fauci would be the villain in just about every Hollywood thriller involving contagions and mass death.  

 

You're starting to make me nervous on the organ donation thing.  @B-Man, @SoCal Deek, @Bidens_basement and @Sundancer if something should happen to me and my kidney's, pancreas, and liver* are missing from my body, please let the police know I did not voluntarily part with them and they should check Oldies basement for hidden rooms.  And, I've only included Sunny in case you other three mutts are in on the game. 

 

*If you're harvesting the man parts, word to the wise- you should bring an extra large vessel to transport.  

49 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You realize the risks of things like blood clots from the vaccine are way less than morbidity and mortality from Covid?  

The only other time in history I can think of where we had either a national crisis or war or something like that, and the country didn’t pull together, was Vietnam.  And the Civil War, but that was obviously a unique case.

McCarthyism.  Russia gate.  The Kavanaugh nomination.  Pre-1960s deep south America. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[Beast]

42 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

No, in other words how science works.

 

Sure. So you are saying some scientists are wrong but others aren't.

 

Just wondering, are you, yourself, a scientist?

 

 

[Sundancer]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I know hundreds personally that think they’ and you are crazy and since 90% or more of health care workers are vaccinated across the country they apparently agree.

Yeah hard to talk to the brainwashed. 

[B-Man]

38 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

Yeah hard to talk to the brainwashed. 

 

 

Even harder to talk with those with closed minds

 

I'm thinking that I will put my four decades of healthcare experience ahead of your insistence on a lock-step solution.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by B-Man

[Bockeye]

11 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

Yeah hard to talk to the brainwashed. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/health-care-workers-covid-19-vaccine-half-not-vaccinated/
 

 

Article from March and then mandates we’re enacted. Many were forced and/coerced into getting the vax.  
 

There goes that theory. 
 

Seriously, you guys have think and take a look at the timeline and all that’s happened. Stop drinking the rhetoric. 
 

Undisputed FACTS

 

No mask, then mask, then three masks

 

vaccine bad because trump made it. Trump gone, vaccine good. 

vax means you won’t get covid. Oops, you can get covid. 
 

vax means you won’t spread virus.  Oops, you can spread virus. 
 

vax means you won’t die.  Oops, you can die. 

 

We can eradicate covid.  Oops, we will live with it forever like flu. 

and the list goes on…
 

 

[Orlando Buffalo]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

You honestly believe a cold is comparable to a major issue from Covid.  You honestly think that.

 

Once again- the chances of my healthy son having a major case of Covid is less than the norm for those under 25, so if the the normal amount is one in 200,000( your numbers) his is most likely one in a million or less. So I am making the informed decision not to have him take a vaccine without a long term study to protect others who should be protecting themselves. At least you realize that the variants are not going to ever stop, vaccine or no vaccine 

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

 

Sure. So you are saying some scientists are wrong but others aren't.

 

Just wondering, are you, yourself, a scientist?

 

 

Yes.  Forty years in research.  And that is how science works.  You make observations, you do your research, you publish.  Others do their research, publish their findings that may differ from yours in some ways.  Your data and conclusions are critiqued as are others.  And consensus develops.

 

it is scary for the future of our country how many people like you have no clue what science is and how it works.  And even worse, don’t care to know.

[Beast]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Yes.  Forty years in research.  And that is how science works.  You make observations, you do your research, you publish.  Others do their research, publish their findings that may differ from yours in some ways.  Your data and conclusions are critiqued as are others.  And consensus develops.

 

it is scary for the future of our country how many people like you have no clue what science is and how it works.  And even worse, don’t care to know.

 

OK, so how many years or months, weeks or even days, have you been studying COVID 19, the vaccine, and any possible long term effects of taking the vaccine.

 

BTW, sorry to scare you.

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Beast

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

OK, so how many years or months, weeks or even days, have you been studying COVID 19, the vaccine, and any possible long term effects of taking the vaccine.

 

BTW, sorry to scare you.

 

It is not my field of research but I have been reading the relevant papers since the pandemic started.  I know the answer probably but I’ll ask anyway:  are you a scientist?

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I think sometimes it's about the individual, sometimes it's about society.  I think it's that way in life, generally.  Sometimes we help our neighbor, the one who owns the local hardware store, sometimes we pop over to the Home Depot to get rock bottom prices without a second thought.  Sometimes we support higher taxes on the other guy while we benefit from the lower tax rate, or vice versa.  Sometimes we support the other guy's president, sometimes the other guy cooks up a McCarthy-esque Russian conspiracy grift to attempt to destroy yours. 

 

As far as my last paragraph, you're swinging at the wrong target.  I'm vaxed and strongly encouraged my vax-resistant son to get the jab.  I'm still not sure that was the right call.   All I am saying is it is perfectly normal, 100% understandable and an indisputable fact that young people are amazingly consistent.  Your perspective is they should take one for the team, that they should disregard the Moderna problem and just jump to another vax.  People are inquisitive by nature...7 months after touting Moderna as the super cure wonder drug,  suddenly the gov says "Ah, just do Pfizer..." and you don't think the natural question for a person likely convinced he doesn't need any vaccine to begin with is "What happens when they find out the Pfizer shot is dangerous in 6 months?".  7 out of a million ain't bad odds, but  not as good as 0 out of a million if they will generally tolerate COVID with low risk of death.  

 

I think you still miss the larger point, so I'll mention it and ask you one more time:

 

Setting aside your indignation that some folks are distrustful of what the CDC, Faucci and the rest say, would you not acknowledge that it is true that the overwhelmingly vast majority of young people tolerate exposure to COVID and subsequent infection very well?    

 

My son uses an e-cigarette.  I have told him 538 times that this may be one of the most foolish things he can do, that he's inhaling chemicals into his lungs, and that the long term effects are lunknown but potentially catastrophic.  I'm 100% accurate on this count, I'm not a medical professional and he trusts me.  I'm surely going to have to have this dialogue another 538 times before it sinks in.    Given our relationship and his response to my feedback, what's the relative likelihood he will listen to  the CDC and the Fauch when--whether you choose to acknowledge it or not---the guidance has been hypocritical, confusing and has evolved or changed multiple times.  To boot, the uneasy alliance in this gain of function research, inconsistencies on how or why this COVID crisis started, and the massive amount of money changing hands here is a recipe for disaster from a trust perspective.  Sure, you with your training at age 60+ can sagely tell him "But that's just science and science is hard..." but he's probably not going to listen you either.  One thing though--he does not think in any way, shape or form that he's going to be responsible for your death from COVID, he's simply not wired that way. The same kid would likely sacrifice life and limb to drag you out of your Porsche 911 if you had an accident and your car started on fire.  

 

It's not just a matter of "better spokesmen", based on what we now know, Fauci would be the villain in just about every Hollywood thriller involving contagions and mass death.  

 

You're starting to make me nervous on the organ donation thing.  @B-Man, @SoCal Deek, @Bidens_basement and @Sundancer if something should happen to me and my kidney's, pancreas, and liver* are missing from my body, please let the police know I did not voluntarily part with them and they should check Oldies basement for hidden rooms.  And, I've only included Sunny in case you other three mutts are in on the game. 

 

*If you're harvesting the man parts, word to the wise- you should bring an extra large vessel to transport.  

McCarthyism.  Russia gate.  The Kavanaugh nomination.  Pre-1960s deep south America. 

Good points all, especially the examples at the end.  Clearly the data in younger individuals is much more comforting inbb by that they are at much less risk of death. My larger concern in younger groups who contract the disease and the resulting potential morbidity.  There was just a study this week suggesting Covid infection might link to increased risk of diabetes.  We don’t know long term what will happen.

 

Of course some say the same about the vaccine, but given the nature of the vaccine and historical data on side effects it just is not an issue.  Side effects from vaccines are rare, and show up within weeks.  And the myocarditis and blood clot issues with the J & J are examples where they were found quickly.

 

It comes down to benefit vs. risk and the data are clear.  But convincing the younger group is hard as you indicate.

[billsfan5121]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Good points all, especially the examples at the end.  Clearly the data in younger individuals is much more comforting inbb by that they are at much less risk of death. My larger concern in younger groups who contract the disease and the resulting potential morbidity.  There was just a study this week suggesting Covid infection might link to increased risk of diabetes.  We don’t know long term what will happen.

 

Of course some say the same about the vaccine, but given the nature of the vaccine and historical data on side effects it just is not an issue.  Side effects from vaccines are rare, and show up within weeks.  And the myocarditis and blood clot issues with the J & J are examples where they were found quickly.

 

It comes down to benefit vs. risk and the data are clear.  But convincing the younger group is hard as you indicate.

Here’s the problem. For many of us, we don’t get to weigh the benefit vs the risk for ourselves. Instead, we are being forced to take something, even if we counted the cost. And when people are hesitant, it’s not so much is it safe today. We all know people who have been vaccinated and are still here and seemingly healthy. We believe that there’s a chance that there could be future repercussions because say what you want about science, it CANNOT accurately predict future outcomes. It can provide info to make a guess, but it’s not guaranteed. What is deemed safe today can be found to be dangerous later. There are examples of that and the FDA approving things that turned out to be dangerous. So vaccine approvals don’t mean much to some people. 

[B-Man]

 

 

As Joe says..............just look at those employee vaccination rates go up !

 

 

 

 

President Joe Biden was in Illinois Thursday talking about vaccine mandates. Biden, whose defining trait is his empathy, said to look at the bigger picture when you see reports of mass firings and hundreds of people losing their jobs due to vaccine mandates. He uses United as a success story, saying their vaccination rate went from 59 percent to 99 percent.

 

 

After a company fires everyone who isn't vaccinated, that company's vax rate tends to go up.

 

 

 

God help the U.S.

 

 

 

[Sundancer]

13 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Keep dreaming. Just don’t come running to me when the hammer comes down! 

 

No answer to my specific question? Just an amorphous conspiracy group in charge? When are they coming? When will they be revealed? 

10 hours ago, Bockeye said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/health-care-workers-covid-19-vaccine-half-not-vaccinated/
 

 

Article from March and then mandates we’re enacted. Many were forced and/coerced into getting the vax.  
 

There goes that theory. 
 

Seriously, you guys have think and take a look at the timeline and all that’s happened. Stop drinking the rhetoric. 
 

Undisputed FACTS

 

No mask, then mask, then three masks

 

vaccine bad because trump made it. Trump gone, vaccine good. 

vax means you won’t get covid. Oops, you can get covid. 
 

vax means you won’t spread virus.  Oops, you can spread virus. 
 

vax means you won’t die.  Oops, you can die. 

 

We can eradicate covid.  Oops, we will live with it forever like flu. 

and the list goes on…
 

 

 

Article from March 2021 on vaccine rate of HCWs. You sure schooled me. 

[Bockeye]

Thank you - now your reading comprehension is on full display. I actually pointed out that the article is from March and ONLY just over 50% of HCW’s were vaccinated at that time. I then went on the state that the % picked up considerably after March because these HCW’s were coerced/forced to get the jab and thus the rate is higher now. 
 

Consider yourself schooled. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Bockeye

[Bockeye]

21 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Medicine is about benefit vs. risk.  The math indicates that even ion younger people the risk of getting Covid far outweighs any risk with the vaccine.

See my comment about benefit and risk; the risk of getting Covid are still much higher in the younger population than the risk associated with the vaccine.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0146280621002267?via%3Dihub

 

 

“Thus, due to both the problems of under-reporting and the known lag in report processing, this analysis reveals a strong signal from the VAERS data that the risk of suffering CIRM – especially males is unacceptably high. Again, children are not a high-risk group for COVID-19 respiratory illness, and yet they are the high-risk group for CIRM.

So much for your theory on children/young adults getting vaccine.”
 

If I keep schooling you this much, I’m gonna have to bill you. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Bockeye

[oldmanfan]

51 minutes ago, Bockeye said:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0146280621002267?via%3Dihub

 

 

“Thus, due to both the problems of under-reporting and the known lag in report processing, this analysis reveals a strong signal from the VAERS data that the risk of suffering CIRM – especially males is unacceptably high. Again, children are not a high-risk group for COVID-19 respiratory illness, and yet they are the high-risk group for CIRM.

So much for your theory on children/young adults getting vaccine.”
 

If I keep schooling you this much, I’m gonna have to bill you. 

Your schooling did not apparently include math.

 

It is known that the Covid vaccines, especially the mRNA types, have an increased risk of myocarditis associated with them.  The Israeli data as well as the data in the report you cite support that.  Now what is the actual risk in terms of percentage of cases and mortality?  In the article you cite the risk is 4 per million or about 0.14% of all adverse event reported to the VAERS system.  In kids, the article you cite suggest that there have been just south of 3.5 million vaccinations, and 559 myocarditis cases, of which there have been 6 deaths.  Which are tragic to be sure.  But if ones then does the math, it turns out that the mortality rate from myocarditis secondary to vaccination is about 4-7 deaths per million individuals, or around 0.0005%.

 

The mortiality rate of Covid in younger individuals as I pointed out above is about 0.005% from Covid itself, and does not account for longer term morbidity associated with the virus.

 

As I have said numerous times here, medicine is about benefit vs. risk.  The numbers here suggest that there is a benefit to the vaccine, in that you have a 10 fold higher chance of dying from Covid than myocarditis in the younger age group.  Below is the CDC review and recommendations:

 

To assess the benefit-risk balance of mRNA vaccines in adolescents and young adults, ACIP reviewed an individual-level assessment that compared the benefits (i.e., COVID-19 infections and severe disease prevented) to the risks (number of cases of myocarditis) of vaccination, using methods similar to those described previously.††† Specifically, the benefits per million second doses administered (i.e., the benefits of being fully vaccinated in accordance with the FDA EUA) were assessed, including 1) COVID-19 cases prevented based on rates the week of May 29, 2021§§§; 2) COVID-19 hospitalizations prevented based on rates the week of May 22, 2021¶¶¶; and 3) COVID-19 intensive care unit (ICU) admissions and deaths prevented based on the proportion of hospitalized patients who were admitted to the ICU or died.**** The risks were assessed as the number of myocarditis patients reported to VAERS that occurred within 7 days of receipt of a second dose of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine per million second doses administered through the week of June 11, 2021.†††† The benefit-risk assessment was stratified by age group and sex. The analysis assumed 95% vaccine effectiveness§§§§ of 2 doses of a mRNA COVID-19 vaccine in preventing COVID-19 cases and hospitalization and assessed outcomes for a 120-day period. The 120-day period was selected because 1) no alternative vaccine options currently exist for persons aged <18 years or are expected to be available during this period, and 2) inputs regarding community transmission have high uncertainty beyond this period, particularly in the context of circulating variants.¶¶¶¶

 

The benefits (prevention of COVID-19 disease and associated hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and deaths) outweighed the risks (expected myocarditis cases after vaccination) in all populations for which vaccination has been recommended. However, the balance of benefits and risks varied by age and sex because cases of myocarditis were primarily identified among males aged <30 years, and the risks of poor outcomes related to COVID-19 increase with age. Per million second doses of mRNA COVID-19 vaccine administered to males aged 12–29 years, 11,000 COVID-19 cases, 560 hospitalizations, 138 ICU admissions, and six deaths due to COVID-19 could be prevented, compared with 39–47 expected myocarditis cases after COVID-19 vaccination (Table 2). Among males aged ≥30 years, 15,300 COVID-19 cases, 4,598 hospitalizations, 1,242 ICU admissions, and 700 deaths could be prevented, compared with three to four expected myocarditis cases after COVID-19 vaccination. This analysis did not include the potential benefit of preventing post-COVID-19 conditions, such as prolonged symptoms and MIS-C (6,7).

Edited October 8, 2021 by oldmanfan