Sundancer Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Beach said: im not at risk. welcome to logic! Maybe you didn't see what I wrote so I'll try again: What does your doctor say? Are they recommending that you skip the vaccine or get it? 33 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: You like others do not distinguish things that are voluntary and can kill you vs. a viral pandemic which is not voluntary. The delta variant infects more young people, kill more and causes gig knows how many more long term issues that the alpha. But you do you. Plus, funny fact, if you don't get the virus, you can't spread it. And if vaccinated and you get the virus, you spread less.
Sundancer Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/10/04/1043050072/new-zealand-acknowledges-it-can-no-longer-completely-get-rid-of-the-coronavirus New Zealand finally dropping its zero Covid strategy.
All_Pro_Bills Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 47 minutes ago, Sundancer said: Maybe you didn't see what I wrote so I'll try again: What does your doctor say? Are they recommending that you skip the vaccine or get it? Plus, funny fact, if you don't get the virus, you can't spread it. And if vaccinated and you get the virus, you spread less. Typically I like to quantify things because its the only way to really assess something objectively. How do you know vaccinated hosts spread less? Are you a viral researcher or are you citing some study of transmission differences between vaccinated or un-vaccinated spreaders? I can't find any studies to confirm your hypothesis. Can you point me to one? Thanks in advance.
Beach Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Sundancer said: Maybe you didn't see what I wrote so I'll try again: What does your doctor say? Are they recommending that you skip the vaccine or get it? Plus, funny fact, if you don't get the virus, you can't spread it. And if vaccinated and you get the virus, you spread less. my doctor did not recommend it. he isnt vaxxed either.
Sundancer Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 49 minutes ago, Beach said: my doctor did not recommend it. he isnt vaxxed either. Bahahahaha
Beach Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Sundancer said: Bahahahaha we arent all scared. im sorry u have been scared.
Sundancer Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Typically I like to quantify things because its the only way to really assess something objectively. How do you know vaccinated hosts spread less? Are you a viral researcher or are you citing some study of transmission differences between vaccinated or un-vaccinated spreaders? I can't find any studies to confirm your hypothesis. Can you point me to one? Thanks in advance. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.16.21251535v3 https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm Let me know when you've read those and I'll be sure to give you more. 24 minutes ago, Beach said: we arent all scared. im sorry u have been scared. I'm not scared. I have never worn a mask voluntarily (except at the beginning TBH, when we didn't have a good bead on what was happening), go to whatever event I feel like, and am living my life within the rules set by the businesses that I frequent. I do support masking in health care settings. Seems like a really good outgrowth of people getting used to masking. But I got vaccinated to stop spreading a deadly disease that lead to a pandemic because it's the responsible thing to do and came at no risk. Edited October 4, 2021 by Sundancer
Beach Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 awesome, i have lived my life also. no mask needed, i identify as vaxxed when needed. i mean no harm, in fact i saved a life yesterday.
Orlando Buffalo Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Beach said: my doctor did not recommend it. he isnt vaxxed either. I have several doctors who have told me they keep their opinions to themselves in NY about the vaccine. Now they are pro vax for those 50+ but under 25 and healthy they do not recommend it. All of the people in between it depends on their individual situation, they are the ones who convinced me to get vaxxed before school started due to my specific situation. 1
Beach Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I have several doctors who have told me they keep their opinions to themselves in NY about the vaccine. Now they are pro vax for those 50+ but under 25 and healthy they do not recommend it. All of the people in between it depends on their individual situation, they are the ones who convinced me to get vaxxed before school started due to my specific situation. ive known my doc since high school. his friends know he isnt vaxxed otherwise he doesnt advertise it.
plenzmd1 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 I find it very funny that the CDC itself acknowledges the PCR test is so very whacked. Being fully vaxed, and yet testing positive for Covid, i wanted to do the very safe thing and and get a PCR negative test before circulating again in the wild. Much to my surprise, the CDC does not recommend that as the PCR can pick up virus presence from as much as 3 months ago... WTF???? we are relying on this test to form CDC recommendations but they recognize the CT is making it essentially a useless test? And people wonder why there are folks who say the vaccine is bull crap...fool me once and all...what a joke this agency is. Blow it the fudge up and start over with non politically appointed leadership. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/duration-isolation.html Quote Patients who have recovered from COVID-19 can continue to have detectable SARS-CoV-2 RNA in upper respiratory specimens for up to 3 months after illness onset. However, replication-competent virus has not been reliably recovered and infectiousness is unlikely. These findings strengthen the justification for relying on a symptom-based rather than test-based strategy for ending isolation of most patients.
Doc Brown Posted October 5, 2021 Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: WTF???? we are relying on this test to form CDC recommendations but they recognize the CT is making it essentially a useless test? And people wonder why there are folks who say the vaccine is bull crap...fool me once and all...what a joke this agency is. Blow it the fudge up and start over with non politically appointed leadership. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/duration-isolation.html I don't quite follow your logic. The fact that almost all Covid deaths since the vaccines became widely available are among the unvaccinated should dispel any notion that the vaccine is bull crap regardless of CDC guidelines. Edited October 5, 2021 by Doc Brown 2
Sundancer Posted October 5, 2021 Posted October 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Doc Brown said: I don't quite follow your logic. The fact that almost all Covid deaths since the vaccines became widely available are among the unvaccinated should dispel any notion that the vaccine is bull crap regardless of CDC guidelines. He seems obsessed with conspiracies and believes he has more knowledge than massive groups of scientists. Not sure following his logic is the way to go, unless you think the Middle Ages provided a sensible scientific foundation for human progress.
plenzmd1 Posted October 5, 2021 Posted October 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Doc Brown said: I don't quite follow your logic. The fact that almost all Covid deaths since the vaccines became widely available are among the unvaccinated should dispel any notion that the vaccine is bull crap regardless of CDC guidelines. What I am saying is that the CDC gives fuel to the people who question anything the CDC says. Think of the CDC has your local weather guy , and for 5 storms in a row they have called it storm of the century and ya better evacuate and then ya get nothing but a big thunderstorm. When the 6th actually is storm of the century, and no one evacuates, can you really blame anyone? This regime of the CDC has proven to be an extension of the White House and do what is politically expedient. Whether is be mask guidance, how they count breakthrough infections , booster shots, and as this guidance proves the usefulness of a PCR test. so if they guided by politics and unscientific methods in all other areas, I can understand why there are people who say” sure,, they make decisions based on politics everywhere else, but not vaccine efficacy or side effects ? Yea, I gots me a bridge if your interested”. 1
plenzmd1 Posted October 5, 2021 Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sundancer said: He seems obsessed with conspiracies and believes he has more knowledge than massive groups of scientists. Not sure following his logic is the way to go, unless you think the Middle Ages provided a sensible scientific foundation for human progress. I have never posted one “ conspiracy theory”. I post actual studies and actual documents from the CDC. I ask you again these questions What is the actual rate of breakthrough infections in the vaccinated in the US? Why does the cDC recommend we use PCR tests to detect if you have Covid and need to isolate for 10 days and determine case rates , but not use if you have had an active infection to determine when isolation can end? I posted a study from P town that you said has been debunked, why then did the CDC use it to form guidance? what studies and data has the CDC itself conducted and collected. to form guidance and policies around Covid. Why did Biden declare everyone was gunna get a booster , then have both the CDC and the FDA advisory panels only approve for over 65s and the immune compromised? Why then did his CDC director overrule her own panel and expand the use of boosters? the September VAERS data shows over 700 K adverse reactions , and over 15k deaths. Do you dispute any of those numbers ? Study after study after study has shown natural immunity at least as effective as vax, why then do folks with natural immunity need a vax especially in light of the VAERS date supplied above? if you believe any of the above are conspiracy theories, please point out where and why. Edited October 5, 2021 by plenzmd1 1
Sundancer Posted October 5, 2021 Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: I have never posted one “ conspiracy theory”. I post actual studies and actual documents from the CDC. I ask you again these questions What is the actual rate of breakthrough infections in the vaccinated in the US? Why does the cDC recommend we use PCR tests to detect if you have Covid and need to isolate for 10 days and determine case rates , but not use if you have had an active infection to determine when isolation can end? I posted a study from P town that you said has been debunked, why then did the CDC use it to form guidance? what studies and data has the CDC itself conducted and collected. to form guidance and policies around Covid. Why did Biden declare everyone was gunna get a booster , then have both the CDC and the FDA advisory panels only approve for over 65s and the immune compromised? Why then did his CDC director overrule her own panel and expand the use of boosters? the September VAERS data shows over 700 K adverse reactions , and over 15k deaths. Do you dispute any of those numbers ? Study after study after study has shown natural immunity at least as effective as vax, why then do folks with natural immunity need a vax especially in light of the VAERS date supplied above? if you believe any of the above are conspiracy theories, please point out where and why. Your reliance on VAERS data to link vaccines and deaths shows your “sources.” That’s got to be one of the most idiotic things you guys who think they know better latch onto. Alex Betenson, Tucker, a whole gang of folks who know nothing latching on to that. Anyways that’s been more widely debunked than the Provincetown study (1 immunocompromised desth in 1000 cases almost entirely among visitors to the community during bear weekend…so many good data points on the vaccine missed in the anti vax eagerness about that). Open your sources and you’ll see why that’s a joke of a data point. But understanding the limitations of VAERS is most of your answer: you don’t get “vaccine caused a death” from anything in VAERS. Maybe you’re not a conspiracist. You’re a guy who thinks he does science better than doctors and experts like most who post here. But I ask you: why are those folks whose job is science out to mislead you? Edited October 5, 2021 by Sundancer
Sundancer Posted October 5, 2021 Posted October 5, 2021 — Another study for AllPro and Plenz about the vaccine’s effectiveness vs transmission. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7040e1.htm Summary: Very effective, you’re wrong. Not sure why your ego won’t let you admit you’re wrong on this. I was wrong to think masks would be more effective. They turned out a bit effective but not as good as hoped. Just admit it: Vaccines slow transmission effectively too.
plenzmd1 Posted October 5, 2021 Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sundancer said: Your reliance on VAERS data to link vaccines and deaths shows your “sources.” That’s got to be one of the most idiotic things you guys who think they know better latch onto. Alex Betenson, Tucker, a whole gang of folks who know nothing latching on to that. Anyways that’s been more widely debunked than the Provincetown study (1 immunocompromised desth in 1000 cases almost entirely among visitors to the community during bear weekend…so many good data points on the vaccine missed in the anti vax eagerness about that). Open your sources and you’ll see why that’s a joke of a data point. But understanding the limitations of VAERS is most of your answer: you don’t get “vaccine caused a death” from anything in VAERS. Maybe you’re not a conspiracist. You’re a guy who thinks he does science better than doctors and experts like most who post here. But I ask you: why are those folks whose job is science out to mislead you? Ang again, you prove my point. You say the study the CDC relied upon to form guidance has been debunked, and yet the CDC used it to form guidance and make critical decisions. You claim the very source the CDC uses to track side affects of vaccines is garbage, and yet you cannot understand why people say with natural immunity say “ nah, ya know what, I got stronger immunity than any shot, why risk a side effect that no one has clue about, even the CDC”. Yep, big conspiracy theory there. You have not answered the question of how many cases in the case counts everyday are amongst the vaccinated. Again, point me to the CDC study’s or data that tracks that number. I appreciate it. And you have not explained why the CDC wants you to use a PCR to establish infection, but not to establish the absence of the virus. All you want to do is demonize people who question the vaccines or the “government” , I have just given you 5 pretty big reasons why they might do that. and while you seem to agree with me that the info they use is garbage , you accuse me of saying I know science “better”. Never said that. What I am is a guy who questions a politicized agency that makes decisions based on feels, not on science, and because of that they contribute mightily to the anti vax crowd. I know you don’t read well, but I have read extensively on mRNA technology before the vaxes came out , believe in the vax 100% , took mine as soon as I could, and bought a ton of Moderna last August. I like to take dives and understand why people who have different views than mine would have those views, and have settled on one of the reasons we have strident anti vax people is the nonsense that comes out of the CDC. if they were honest, people would trust them. They are not honest, especially this group on charge now. Edited October 5, 2021 by plenzmd1
Sundancer Posted October 5, 2021 Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: Ang again, you prove my point. You say the study the CDC relied upon to form guidance has been debunked, and yet the CDC used it to form guidance and make critical decisions. Yup. The CDC made a policy decision based on one data point that got a lot of headlines and made the anti-vax crowd giddy, but many other data points that showed vaccine effectiveness wanes in older people and in the end, the Provincetown study shows that vaccines work well too. In the end, the CDC recommended boosters for older and at risk people, which is entirely supported by the data. 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: You claim the very source the CDC uses to track side affects of vaccines is garbage, and yet you cannot understand why people say with natural immunity say “ nah, ya know what, I got stronger immunity than any shot, why risk a side effect that no one has clue about, even the CDC”. Yep, big conspiracy theory there. You likely don't understand VAERS. It's not garbage but nor is it some precise tool. The task that you and the anti-vax crowd use it for--to discredit vaccine safety--likely shows a lack of understanding of the tool. Berenson and Tucker misuse it completely. And in this little paragraph, you're mixing apples and cranberries. Be precise. Are we talking about VAERS or immunity? Instead of people being their immunologists and doctors, maybe they should just listen to their doctors. On the second topic, natural immunity works well, not as well as immunity +vax it would seem, but why get and spread covid to get it. Just get the nearly zero-risk vaccine. Don't believe me. Ask your doctor what you should do. 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: You have not answered the question of how many cases in the case counts everyday are amongst the vaccinated. Again, point me to the CDC study’s or data that tracks that number. I appreciate it. The CDC is trying to get this data from the states. Here is one page that lists it through July with all the states that track it to that point. https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/ And though you harp on wanting CDC data, you can get the data from various states and countries. You know what it shows? Being vaccinated gives a massive advantage to getting infected over unvaccinated. And if you look at hospitalizations and deaths, the difference is even starker. I doubt you're completely ignorant on this point but you want one specific data point from the CDC like that is your only answer. It's not. And guess what, see the primary rule: Ask your doctor what you should do on getting vaccinated. 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: And you have not explained why the CDC wants you to use a PCR to establish infection, but not to establish the absence of the virus. The virus lingers. PCR is the overly cautious approach to case detection. 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: All you want to do is demonize people who question the vaccines or the “government” , I have just given you 5 pretty big reasons why they might do that. I am not demonizing you. But you're trying to undermine the vaccine effectiveness, wich is clearly established vs cases, transmission, and serious consequences. Don't believe me, ask your doctor. 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: and while you seem to agree with me that the info they use is garbage , It's not garbage. The CDC mostly uses good data. They are better at it than you or me. The P-town study got blown up because people like you want to conflate it with vaccine failure, which it did not show. 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: you accuse me of saying I know science “better”. Never said that. What I am is a guy who questions a politicized agency that makes decisions based on feels, not on science, and because of that they contribute mightily to the anti vax crowd. What's your doctor say? 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: I know you don’t read well, but I have read extensively on mRNA technology before the vaxes came out , believe in the vax 100% , took mine as soon as I could, and bought a ton of Moderna last August. I like to take dives and understand why people who have different views than mine would have those views, and have settled on one of the reasons we have strident anti vax people is the nonsense that comes out of the CDC. What's your doctor say vis-a-vis the CDC recommendation? What does an anti-vax person's doc say? We are living in a post-science world where PPP and Twitter are given more weight than scientists. 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: if they were honest, people would trust them. They are not honest, especially this group on charge now. And you were saying you aren't a conspiracist. Tell me: Why is the CDC lying to everyone? Edited October 5, 2021 by Sundancer
plenzmd1 Posted October 5, 2021 Posted October 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Sundancer said: Yup. The CDC made a policy decision based on one data point that got a lot of headlines and made the anti-vax crowd giddy, but many other data points that showed vaccine effectiveness wanes in older people and in the end, the Provincetown study shows that vaccines work well too. In the end, the CDC recommended boosters for older and at risk people, which is entirely supported by the data. Quote You likely don't understand VAERS. It's not garbage but nor is it some precise tool. The task that you and the anti-vax crowd use it for--to discredit vaccine safety--likely shows a lack of understanding of the tool. Berenson and Tucker misuse it completely. And in this little paragraph, you're mixing apples and cranberries. Be precise. Are we talking about VAERS or immunity? Instead of people being their immunologists and doctors, maybe they should just listen to their doctors. On the second topic, natural immunity works well, not as well as immunity +vax it would seem, but why get and spread covid to get it. Just get the nearly zero-risk vaccine. Don't believe me. Ask your doctor what you should do. The CDC is trying to get this data from the states. Here is one page that lists it through July with all the states that track it to that point. https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/ And though you harp on wanting CDC data, you can get the data from various states and countries. You know what it shows? Being vaccinated gives a massive advantage to getting infected over unvaccinated. And if you look at hospitalizations and deaths, the difference is even starker. I doubt you're completely ignorant on this point but you want one specific data point from the CDC like that is your only answer. It's not. And guess what, see the primary rule: Ask your doctor what you should do on getting vaccinated. The virus lingers. PCR is the overly cautious approach to case detection. I am not demonizing you. But you're trying to undermine the vaccine effectiveness, wich is clearly established vs cases, transmission, and serious consequences. Don't believe me, ask your doctor. It's not garbage. The CDC mostly uses good data. They are better at it than you or me. The P-town study got blown up because people like you want to conflate it with vaccine failure, which it did not show. What's your doctor say? What's your doctor say vis-a-vis the CDC recommendation? What does an anti-vax person's doc say? We are living in a post-science world where PPP and Twitter are given more weight than scientists. And you were saying you aren't a conspiracist. Tell me: Why is the CDC lying to everyone? To many points to quite directly, so here i will answer in compact form. The CDC has used bad data, bad studies, and bad tracking on both case counts, breakthough vaccine cases, side affects due to vaccine, PCR Cucle Thresholds amd mask effectiveness, and yet you do not see a connection on why choose not to believe them on vaccine effectiveness or potential side effects. Clear distinction here again...I did not say i do not believe in the vaccine..I have been fully vaxed since April and own enough Moderna stock to make my financial guy nervous i own too much. And the CDC is lying cause they have become politicized under Biden. You yourself admit the data they use on both VAERS and breakthrough cases is garbage. Why do they not clearly state what a PCR test is and what a Cycle Threshold is and why it is so high it detects dead virus... if it is "overly" cautious, why are schools and governments using to make decisions that affect our children and our economy? Why did Biden come out and declare everyone was gunna get a booster in August, the FDAs and CDC advisory panels said no, not needed...and yet Wallensky overrode both them to declare "essential workers" get them as well. Why did the CDCissue a rent moratorium when the Supreme Court has already rules that was unconstitutional? Again, my whole point is been when you make it political and are not turthful with people, they will question EVERYTHING ...as people are doingt with the CDC
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