It's Time to Mandate Vaccines

[All_Pro_Bills]

15 hours ago, TSOL said:

Alot of people dont want to cede this kind of control of our lives to the government.

 

Alot of people want to make the decision to get the shot on their own terms, not because they are forced to do so by an intrusive mandate 

And that's because the government in all phases is systemically corrupt and incompetent and pretty much lies about everything.  Confronted by that reality why should anyone trust them with their health?

[oldmanfan]

6 hours ago, Buffarukus said:

 

you site data in your post but then "hope" he will be ok? the data is showing that not only will he be ok but he will be with much better immunity then anyone who was only vaxed. the issue is why are the studies not being the number one priority since they are threatening to shun people from society? you get data THEN mandate if neccessary, not the other way around. 

 

i replied to this coming together argument with you before and you still only see it from your side. SC laid out a perfectly logical reasoning for his decision and where we should have "come together" is when our government became authoritarian. when clear knowledge that box stores were allowed to jam people in them while small stores were shut down even as they followed every single protocol to be safe. arbitrarily crushing people who spent their entire lives building a little something of their own to the sound of applause. when children who repeatedly showed no data that they would be negatively affected were still treated like they are the most at risk group. when people who put their health at risk with no knowledge of how dangerous this was and little PPE, once praised with thank yous are now being threatened to lose that very same job. at this point they ACCEPT the risk and if your vaxed and everyone you love is then you should be fighting on their behalf.

 

how does anyone think that being on the other side of these things is correct? so many more. that's where we should have come together. all while the people making these mandates were caught lying, flip flopping, and repeatedly caught breaking their own protocals with huge smiles on their faces.

 

  

Point by point:

 

1.  I do not think the individual I was communicating with has had Covid and thus would not have natural immunity.  We are not sure how long natural immunity lasts as of yet as well.

 

2.  Congress screwed the small business owner.  I said at the time money should go to those businesses and not the large corporations.

 

3.  Before delta variant I would have agreed that children should be back without masks.  Infections and hospital admissions in children has risen greatly in children, because the younger kids can’t be vaccinated and they are being used as political pawns.  Kids should be back in school with masking as I have already indicated, all school employees should be vaccinated, and local communities monitor local infection and vaccination rates to dictate policies.  Masks work as a mitigation, I have referred to the data, and that is incontrovertible.

 

4.  Health care organizations like mine mandate Covid vaccination, just like we do for influenza and hepatitis.  Why?  Because the health of our patients come first.  That’s the bottom line.  I feel for our front line folks as I do for all health care workers dealing with this pandemic.  They have been jncredible throughout this crisis. But the answer is simple: get vaccinated.  Science says the benefits far outweigh any (mostly theoretical) risks, and health care workers should accept science.  If you work in health care and have been vaccinated for other things but refuse Covid you have no leg to stand on.  
 

5.  What you call flip flopping is oftentimes how science and medicine work in a situation like a pandemic involving a new virus.  As new data comes in you adjust recommendations.  That said, communication should have been clearer in the last and current administration.

 

Your comments seem to ignore how you best deal with a viral pandemic.  You band together as a people and a community and do the things science tells you that work to halt progress and allow our way of life and economy to return.   And that is vaccination.  History tells us that.  The alternative of just letting things go and relying on natural immunity would eventually work but at the cost of millions more lives. 

13 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

And that's because the government in all phases is systemically corrupt and incompetent and pretty much lies about everything.  Confronted by that reality why should anyone trust them with their health?

Is your answer anarchy?

[TSOL]

14 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

And that's because the government in all phases is systemically corrupt and incompetent and pretty much lies about everything.  Confronted by that reality why should anyone trust them with their health?

 

 

This is so true.

 

The story about the virus that we, the general public, get is 100% NOT the real story. 

 

The information we get is sifted through, cleaned up, homogenized, and pre packaged for mass consumption. 

 

Think for yourselves... 

[Big Gun]

18 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I would refute your points but it is clear you have neither the education or willingness to understand anything scientific.

You're to ignorant and dumb to understand what is really going on, think genocide, watch a Bill Gates video on depopulation, listen to actual doctors who say don't get vaxxed, research what is happening in Israel, UK, etc, you won't because you think you are the smartest guy in the room, amiright! GFY!

Just now, Big Gun said:

You're to ignorant and dumb to understand what is really going on, it's over 99% survivable so why the vax? think genocide, watch a Bill Gates video on depopulation, listen to actual doctors who say don't get vaxxed, research what is happening in Israel, UK, etc, you won't because you think you are the smartest guy in the room, amiright! GFY!

 

[JaCrispy]

Millions of people in this country have natural immunity...if there is vaccine hesitancy, it is because it is your natural instincts telling you that something just doesn’t add up, with the way the government is purposely ignoring natural immunity...

 

Trust your instincts...👍

Edited September 18, 2021 by JaCrispy

[SCBills]

13 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Millions of people in this country have natural immunity...if there is vaccine hesitancy, it is because it is your natural instincts telling you that something just doesn’t add up, with the way the government is purposely ignoring natural immunity...

 

Trust your instincts...👍

To make this Bills related, it’s so obvious that this doesn’t add up when Highmark/Erie County enforces a vaccine only mandate, while ignoring negative tests.   
 

It’s a very common protocol in non-blue controlled areas where covid protocols are observed.  A vaccinated person can have covid.. The negative test within 72 hours is much less likely to be transmitting covid at the game. 
 

If this was about safety, negative tests are much more safe than a non-tested vaccinated person that may be exposed to, or have covid, while we know they can also transmit or catch covid.  
 

But it’s not.. it’s about control.  And for whatever reason, vaccination = control.  
 

Even worse, when this topic is discussed on the main board, half our posters completely buy into this policy making sense, and get annoyed at anyone who questions it.  It shows how deep the fear and propaganda has taken hold.  
 

I made the point that Erie County is using the Bills as a cudgel to force vaccination, knowing how passionate the fanbase is.   Yet, the other half on this board don’t see it… It’s incredibly obvious that this is what’s happening.  
 

I find it so frustrating that politicians won’t be honest with us.  Just admit that the Bills are being used to drive up vax numbers.  Don’t lie and tell me it’s about stadium safety, because that’s a lie, and now I have reason to not trust you. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Is your answer anarchy?

Truth, honesty, integrity.  Other novel concepts like service and duty.  Making decisions based on facts and not politics.  Leadership that believe the role of government, and the sole reason for its existence, is to serve the needs of its citizens.   

Edited September 18, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills

[JaCrispy]

41 minutes ago, SCBills said:

To make this Bills related, it’s so obvious that this doesn’t add up when Highmark/Erie County enforces a vaccine only mandate, while ignoring negative tests.   
 

It’s a very common protocol in non-blue controlled areas where covid protocols are observed.  A vaccinated person can have covid.. The negative test within 72 hours is much less likely to be transmitting covid at the game. 
 

If this was about safety, negative tests are much more safe than a non-tested vaccinated person that may be exposed to, or have covid, while we know they can also transmit or catch covid.  
 

But it’s not.. it’s about control.  And for whatever reason, vaccination = control.  
 

Even worse, when this topic is discussed on the main board, half our posters completely buy into this policy making sense, and get annoyed at anyone who questions it.  It shows how deep the fear and propaganda has taken hold.  
 

I made the point that Erie County is using the Bills as a cudgel to force vaccination, knowing how passionate the fanbase is.   Yet, the other half on this board don’t see it… It’s incredibly obvious that this is what’s happening.  
 

I find it so frustrating that politicians won’t be honest with us.  Just admit that the Bills are being used to drive up vax numbers.  Don’t lie and tell me it’s about stadium safety, because that’s a lie, and now I have reason to not trust you. 

A friend of mine said something interesting the other day that ties into what your saying...

 

He said, based on how illogical the protocols and mandates are, it illustrates that it’s never really been about the virus, the vaccine, or obtaining herd immunity at all- but rather the vaccine passports...

 

He said, once we start down that path, copying what communist China did, then the government can use passports for any excuse, by deeming anything a pandemic- guns, homelessness, global warming, racism, etc...and if you don’t conform, the State can dictate if you have a job, if you can take out a loan, whether you can travel somewhere or participate in society, and perhaps even whether you get to own your home...

He said it basically opens Pandora’s box to the authoritarian state...I just thought it was interesting because I had never heard it said like that...

Edited September 18, 2021 by JaCrispy

[SCBills]

Just now, JaCrispy said:

A friend of mine said something interesting the other day that ties into what your saying...

 

He said, based on how illogical the protocols and mandates are, it illustrates that it’s not about the virus, the vaccine, or obtaining herd immunity at all- but rather the vaccine passports...

 

He said, once we start down that path, copying what communist China did, then the government can use passports for any excuse, by deeming anything a pandemic- guns, homelessness, global warming, racism...and if you don’t conform, the State can dictate if you have a job, if you can take out a loan, whether you can travel somewhere or participate in society, and perhaps even whether you get to own your home...

He said it basically opens Pandora’s box to the authoritarian state...I just thought it was interesting because I had never heard it said like that...

🎯 

 

We could also ask out loud why the Biden Admin is hiring up IRS Agents and wants access to everyone’s bank accounts under the new legislation they are promoting. 
 

Back to the vaccine passport… Government, time after time, has shown that when they aggregate power, they do not give it back.  If we allow vax passports to take hold, they then become acceptable.   Once acceptable, they will undoubtedly be used to whatever the government deems necessary.  

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Big Gun said:

You're to ignorant and dumb to understand what is really going on, think genocide, watch a Bill Gates video on depopulation, listen to actual doctors who say don't get vaxxed, research what is happening in Israel, UK, etc, you won't because you think you are the smartest guy in the room, amiright! GFY!

 

The fact you think Bill Gates is doing this says all we need to know about you.

[oldmanfan]

52 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Truth, honesty, integrity.  Other novel concepts like service and duty.  Making decisions based on facts and not politics.  Leadership that believe the role of government, and the sole reason for its existence, is to serve the needs of its citizens.   

I like this.  To get it we need a third party.

[Buffarukus]

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Point by point:

 

1.  I do not think the individual I was communicating with has had Covid and thus would not have natural immunity.  We are not sure how long natural immunity lasts as of yet as well.

 

the fact we are absolutely sure about a vax induced immunity but are not sure about a immunity that has millions of samples and much more time to study is at the very least incompetent or worse dishonest. whats is also strange is that people dont care as the ones in charge have been found to be one of those things repeatedly. you got covid? you may be in for some long term side effects. you got the vaccine you may be in for some long term side effects. anyone who says that's not true with certainty is lying. regardless i demand you take on both risks before i demand a answer for the most basic question when it comes to millions who have contracted this virus. 

 

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

 

2.  Congress screwed the small business owner.  I said at the time money should go to those businesses and not the large corporations.

 

3.  Before delta variant I would have agreed that children should be back without masks.  Infections and hospital admissions in children has risen greatly in children, because the younger kids can’t be vaccinated and they are being used as political pawns.  Kids should be back in school with masking as I have already indicated, all school employees should be vaccinated, and local communities monitor local infection and vaccination rates to dictate policies.  Masks work as a mitigation, I have referred to the data, and that is incontrovertible.

 

4.  Health care organizations like mine mandate Covid vaccination, just like we do for influenza and hepatitis.  Why?  Because the health of our patients come first.  That’s the bottom line.  I feel for our front line folks as I do for all health care workers dealing with this pandemic.  They have been jncredible throughout this crisis. But the answer is simple: get vaccinated.  Science says the benefits far outweigh any (mostly theoretical) risks, and health care workers should accept science.  If you work in health care and have been vaccinated for other things but refuse Covid you have no leg to stand on.  

 

im glad you agree with alot of the examples i made. i understand your points. i was not talking specifically about your views on them. im talking about the narrative that these things were done and half the country having zero interest in coming together on them and actually vilifying people who did nothing wrong. but thats in the past lets work together now. that's not really how things work. regardless, there are issue with public saftey on a host of topics. driving after a certain age becomes much more likely to get into accidents. how about we come together to stop people in a age group from driving. look at the data! you dont want people to needlessly die do you? i dont care about your particular circumstance or reasoning you feel you can be in control of the saftey of yourself and others. your in that group so do what is right and sell your car and use public transportation or ill take it. that's fundamentally wrong just as some of my examples. i would be against it because i understand the risks of sharing the road with all sorts of threats. its a downside of a free society. the big difference is there is no way to protect myself and loved ones from you as a potential threat in that situation. where you can get vaxed and feel secure you are protected from the unvaxed. I'm sure you will have a difference that explains it but its the same principal. 

 

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

 

5.  What you call flip flopping is oftentimes how science and medicine work in a situation like a pandemic involving a new virus.  As new data comes in you adjust recommendations.  That said, communication should have been clearer in the last and current administration.

 

my background is in a science based field. i understand the scientific method. you do not go out to the public with recommendations or mandates based on incomplete conclusions.  you say we are still investigating that but could be wrong. honest and transparent. the worst possible thing you can do is dilute and change a certainty or allow any bias into the conversation. its there in BOTH administrations. hell biden just got nixed on his boosters for all plan because thankfully the scientist say that is jumping the gun. they resisted probably alot of administrative pressure to do that. responding to any propaganda directly to be clear not censoring it in secrecy. having bogus stories that are easily debunked about horse paste ect ect. skeptical and fear will be the the result of all this and it could have been avoided. i don't blame anyone but the ones in charge. not my neighbor for his reluctance.

 

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

 

Your comments seem to ignore how you best deal with a viral pandemic.  You band together as a people and a community and do the things science tells you that work to halt progress and allow our way of life and economy to return.   And that is vaccination. History tells us that.  The alternative of just letting things go and relying on natural immunity would eventually work but at the cost of millions more lives. 

 

 

i agree but you cant just reach the endpoint of a public that feels safe and confident in a vaccine when the entire time there are examples like the ones i stated. hey i know we vilified you when you had your rally but not ours. i know we told you mask, then dont, no 2, wait 1, 3 masks! i know we called lab leak a conspiracy, it is one. no its not. i know the top expert who is giving you all this info was directly involved in dangerous research that we continued with, just hidden outside the country. boosters are needed for everyone no boosters are only needed for vulnerable. on and on. but believe us this time...or else. 

 

no idea why we cant come together? 

 

sorry for the long write up. i felt your response was well thought out and articulated. we may not agree but its worth the effort in your case. i find that rare on this section.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Buffarukus

[reddogblitz]

7 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Millions of people in this country have natural immunity...if there is vaccine hesitancy, it is because it is your natural instincts telling you that something just doesn’t add up, with the way the government is purposely ignoring natural immunity...

 

Trust your instincts...👍

 

Here's one thing I've been wondering about this natural immunity thing.

 

presently we have 64% of Americans with at least one dose.  We have had 43,000,000 cases (13%).  We should now be at 77% of Americans walking around with immunity.  Perhaps double or triple if we factor in asymptomatic or low symptom cases would put us at 80 - 93%.

 

This would be some serious herd immunity. So where are the cases coming from?  My instincts are telling me something is not adding up.

 

Of course these are not mutually exclusive groups, but we should definitely be 75%+.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by reddogblitz

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Here's one thing I've been wondering about this natural immunity thing.

 

presently we have 64% of Americans with at least one dose.  We have had 43,000,000 cases (13%).  We should now be at 77% of Americans walking around with immunity.  Perhaps double or triple if we factor in asymptomatic or low symptom cases would put us at 80 - 93%.

 

This would be some serious herd immunity. So where are the cases coming from?  My instincts are telling me something is not adding up.

 

Of course these are not mutually exclusive groups, but we should definitely be 75%+.

 

 

What hasn't natural immunity been recognized and acknowledged?  Good question.

 

Why haven't effective MAB treatments been publicized and distributed more widely and effectively?

Why haven't "instant" COVID tests like InteliSwab been deployed and utilized for events, public gatherings, schools, and perhaps sports teams?  Tests that can generate an accurate positive/negative result in about 15 minutes.

Why hasn't a policy of pre-emptive treatment of family groups when one member tests positive been promoted which were successful in places like India?  Rather than the go home and infect everyone else in the household and go to the hospital when you turn blue.

Why haven't any definitive FDA/CDC studies on mask effectiveness been conducted in 18 months?

[JaCrispy]

5 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Here's one thing I've been wondering about this natural immunity thing.

 

presently we have 64% of Americans with at least one dose.  We have had 43,000,000 cases (13%).  We should now be at 77% of Americans walking around with immunity.  Perhaps double or triple if we factor in asymptomatic or low symptom cases would put us at 80 - 93%.

 

This would be some serious herd immunity. So where are the cases coming from?  My instincts are telling me something is not adding up.

 

Of course these are not mutually exclusive groups, but we should definitely be 75%+.

 

 

Good stuff...I will also add that, if memory serves, I remember in the beginning of covid, Fauci and the government made mention of how natural immunity would be part of the equation for reaching herd immunity...and now it seems all that is out the window...

[oldmanfan]

4 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

What hasn't natural immunity been recognized and acknowledged?  Good question.

 

Why haven't effective MAB treatments been publicized and distributed more widely and effectively?

Why haven't "instant" COVID tests like InteliSwab been deployed and utilized for events, public gatherings, schools, and perhaps sports teams?  Tests that can generate an accurate positive/negative result in about 15 minutes.

Why hasn't a policy of pre-emptive treatment of family groups when one member tests positive been promoted which were successful in places like India?  Rather than the go home and infect everyone else in the household and go to the hospital when you turn blue.

Why haven't any definitive FDA/CDC studies on mask effectiveness been conducted in 18 months?

Some good points.  Two specific response:

 

1.  Regeneron  (the monoclonal treatment)  is well known in the medical community. But I believe a dose of it costs around a thousand dollars while the vaccine costs the patient nothing.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

2.  I did a search of Covid and masks on Medline and over 2000 references showed up.  I mentioned this earlier but will do so again.  Reviewing the first 200 there were about 20 specifically addressing mask effectiveness, all showing beneficial effects of masks as a mitigating factor against droplet and aerosol spread.  The studies are out there, the CDC lists them, the data overwhelmingly supports their use, but the non-believers refuse to believe data.

Edited September 19, 2021 by oldmanfan

[reddogblitz]

4 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

What hasn't natural immunity been recognized and acknowledged?  Good question.

 

Why haven't effective MAB treatments been publicized and distributed more widely and effectively?

Why haven't "instant" COVID tests like InteliSwab been deployed and utilized for events, public gatherings, schools, and perhaps sports teams?  Tests that can generate an accurate positive/negative result in about 15 minutes.

Why hasn't a policy of pre-emptive treatment of family groups when one member tests positive been promoted which were successful in places like India?  Rather than the go home and infect everyone else in the household and go to the hospital when you turn blue.

Why haven't any definitive FDA/CDC studies on mask effectiveness been conducted in 18 months?

 

Have You ever taken one of these instant tests?  

 

I took 2 last week because we were going to see my 89 year old Mother-in-law.  You have to carefully follow the insructions.  6 drops of water in a small circle. after sticking it up your nose, Put the swab in and rotAte it 3 times.  The instructions even tell you how to get a false negative. Like if you don't use enough water or don't rotate the swab.

 

I can see drunks before a Bills game doing this LOL.

 

who is going to pay for this? Why should the Bills?  Get to the game 4 hours before it starts.

[All_Pro_Bills]

8 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Some good points.  Two specific response:

 

1.  Regeneron  (the monoclonal treatment)  is well known in the medical community. But I believe a dose of it costs around a thousand dollars while the vaccine costs the patient nothing.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

2.  I did a search of Covid and masks on Medline and over 2000 references showed up.  I mentioned this earlier but will do so again.  Reviewing the first 200 there were about 20 specifically addressing mask effectiveness, all showing beneficial effects of masks as a mitigating factor against droplet and aerosol spread.  The studies are out there, the CDC lists them, the data overwhelmingly supports their use, but the non-believers refuse to believe data.

Hey, I'll check the CDC for mask data/study.  Also understand some states foot the bill for MABS.  I've been researching about COVID DNA vaccines in trials.  Do you have any insights on how they differ from mRNA and what if any advantages they might have over what is currently used?

7 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Have You ever taken one of these instant tests?  

 

I took 2 last week because we were going to see my 89 year old Mother-in-law.  You have to carefully follow the insructions.  6 drops of water in a small circle. after sticking it up your nose, Put the swab in and rotAte it 3 times.  The instructions even tell you how to get a false negative. Like if you don't use enough water or don't rotate the swab.

 

I can see drunks before a Bills game doing this LOL.

 

who is going to pay for this? Why should the Bills?  Get to the game 4 hours before it starts.

Actually I've never taken any COVID test but I have a routine to evaluate my condition every morning along with taking certain vitamins and supplements plus moderate exercise every day.  And while I don't know specific instructions on all the instant tests the one I referenced doesn't have those complications. 

 

As for drunks at Bills games being able to comprehend simple instructions I've always believed obviously intoxicated ticket holders should be given a breathalyzer test and if they fail be refused admittance.  They are annoying trouble-makers inside the stadium and a nuisance outside of it.  Getting totally wasted when you're younger can be part of growing up but when adults with alcohol abuse problems that knock 15 to 20 years off their life expectancy show up staggering in public they just look stupid.  My fondest memory of my last Bills home game was of some staggering drunk spilling beer all over my buddies 10 year old daughter.  And I'm thinking "what's the deal with these idiots"? 

[SCBills]

9 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Some good points.  Two specific response:

 

1.  Regeneron  (the monoclonal treatment)  is well known in the medical community. But I believe a dose of it costs around a thousand dollars while the vaccine costs the patient nothing.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

2.  I did a search of Covid and masks on Medline and over 2000 references showed up.  I mentioned this earlier but will do so again.  Reviewing the first 200 there were about 20 specifically addressing mask effectiveness, all showing beneficial effects of masks as a mitigating factor against droplet and aerosol spread.  The studies are out there, the CDC lists them, the data overwhelmingly supports their use, but the non-believers refuse to believe data.

I dont know what states are paying for it, but Monoclonal Treatment is Florida is free, and something like 52% of those utilizing it are vaccinated. 
 

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by SCBills

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Hey, I'll check the CDC for mask data/study.  Also understand some states foot the bill for MABS.  I've been researching about COVID DNA vaccines in trials.  Do you have any insights on how they differ from mRNA and what if any advantages they might have over what is currently used?

Actually I've never taken any COVID test but I have a routine to evaluate my condition every morning along with taking certain vitamins and supplements plus moderate exercise every day.  And while I don't know specific instructions on all the instant tests the one I referenced doesn't have those complications. 

 

As for drunks at Bills games being able to comprehend simple instructions I've always believed obviously intoxicated ticket holders should be given a breathalyzer test and if they fail be refused admittance.  They are annoying trouble-makers inside the stadium and a nuisance outside of it.  Getting totally wasted when you're younger can be part of growing up but when adults with alcohol abuse problems that knock 15 to 20 years off their life expectancy show up staggering in public they just look stupid.  My fondest memory of my last Bills home game was of some staggering drunk spilling beer all over my buddies 10 year old daughter.  And I'm thinking "what's the deal with these idiots"? 

I have not seen anything in DNA vaccines.  I’ll have to check those out.

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

I dont know what states are paying for it, but Monoclonal Treatment is Florida is free, and something like 52% of those utilizing it are vaccinated. 
 

 

It’s good Florida covers the monoclonal, but still it is better to prevent infection in the first place than to have to treat it.    I’d like to see the data on monoclonal being used by a majority of vaccinated patients because the data I’ve seen from Florida indicates over 90% of hospitalizations are unvaccinated individuals.

Edited September 19, 2021 by oldmanfan