It's Time to Mandate Vaccines

[oldmanfan]

29 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Two FDA officials resigned over Biden’s handling of boosters.  Should we trust their judgment?

 

Many scientists say natural immunity is stronger than vaccination.  Should we trust their judgment?

 

Many scientists say there’s no reason to mask children.  Should we trust their judgment?

 

Problem is, both sides believe their science is the correct science.   You don’t have a monopoly on correct science. 

I’ll take each in turn, but before I do I will state that science is rarely black and white. Science looks at data and arrives at consensus based on the data.  It is not uncommon for scientists to debate on the meaning of specific data sets.  Unfortunately, there are way too many people in our country that are ignorant, willfully or otherwise, about how science works and how theories and therapeutic approaches change as data is obtained.
 

1.  Boosters:  Biden announced that prematurely and was wrong to do so until the FDA thoroughly reviewed the data.  They are doing so today.  Some data especially from Israel suggest that boosters can be very effective especially in older individuals.

 

2.  Natural vs. vaccine induced immunity.  This needs to be studied further.  Studies should be done as to how long immunity lasts in both groups, what antibody titers  are developed by each and such.  There are clearly some that get repeated Covid infections and some that do so after immunization.  We need data on percentages of each and severity of each.

 

3.  Masks:  I am currently looking through a Medline search I did using the search terms Covid and masks.  Over 2000 references came up.  In reviewing the first 200 there are about 20 or so that show observational or laboratory data on mask effectiveness, plus several meta-analyses of mask studies.  The vast majority (over 90%) show a mitigating effect of masks, helping prevent spread of aerosols or droplets which are the main source of transmission. Thus the preponderance of the evidence shows masks are helpful and it is far past time to quit arguing about it.

 

4. Masking children:  I was in the camp of not doing so until the delta variant.  The delta variant is much more infectious and many more children are being hospitalized now.  The data suggest mortality rates in kids with delta is still low, due in part to their age and to advances in treatment strategies.  The only protection kids under the age of 12 have is masks.  My opinion: teachers and other school personnel should  be required to be vaccinated, kids 12and up should be vaccinated.  Kids should be in school with their friends learning and should be masked or not based on the local data such as vaccination status in a given community.  Anecdotally, I talk to kids and they have less problems wearing masks that some parents, who use their children as political pawns to push an agenda.

 

You ask which science is right, as if it can only be one way of the other.  I’ll put this as kindly as I can; it shows you don’t understand the nature of science and research.  The people fighting this have made it their life’s work to battle infectious disease.  I am proud to know many of them.  And our country and the world would be way better off banding together and following the science, rather that diving down conspiracy laden rabbit holes.

Edited September 17, 2021 by oldmanfan

[B-Man]

 

 

Joe Biden's Angry, Divisive Vaccine Mandate Threat Has Failed Miserably

 

 

 

https://redstate.com/bonchie/2021/09/17/joe-bidens-angry-divisive-vaccine-mandate-threat-has-failed-miserably-n444350

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Joe Biden's Angry, Divisive Vaccine Mandate Threat Has Failed Miserably

 

 

 

https://redstate.com/bonchie/2021/09/17/joe-bidens-angry-divisive-vaccine-mandate-threat-has-failed-miserably-n444350

 

Quoting far right wing stuff as always.  When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

The mandate for federal workers goes into effect September30.  OSHA has to still write the directive for companies with over 100 employees.

Edited September 17, 2021 by oldmanfan

[Big Gun]

39 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

The public was given a chance to be responsible.  Too many chose to be idiots.

Idiot about what? Not getting a so called vaccine for something that is over 99% survivable even if you contract it, and the unvaxxed are the idiots, you better look in the mirror while you're still breathing dummie!

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Big Gun said:

Idiot about what? Not getting a so called vaccine for something that is over 99% survivable even if you contract it, and the unvaxxed are the idiots, you better look in the mirror while you're still breathing dummie!

I would refute your points but it is clear you have neither the education or willingness to understand anything scientific.

[TSOL]

11 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Joe Biden's Angry, Divisive Vaccine Mandate Threat Has Failed Miserably

 

 

 

https://redstate.com/bonchie/2021/09/17/joe-bidens-angry-divisive-vaccine-mandate-threat-has-failed-miserably-n444350

 

 

 

The mandates are destined to fail because they come from a place of fear and fear must never be allowed to prevail 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, TSOL said:

 

 

The mandates are destined to fail because they come from a place of fear and fear must never be allowed to prevail 

You have to wait until the mandates are actually in place before you can see their effect.

[TSOL]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You have to wait until the mandates are actually in place before you can see their effect.

 

 

All they are going to accomplish is endless litigation and division. 

 

 

[BillStime]

Thank you Trump voters for politicizing the pandemic from the start...

 

 

PS: Carmines is great if you've never been...

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, TSOL said:

 

 

All they are going to accomplish is endless litigation and division. 

 

 

The division is already there.  

[SCBills]

38 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I’ll take each in turn, but before I do I will state that science is rarely black and white. Science looks at data and arrives at consensus based on the data.  It is not uncommon for scientists to debate on the meaning of specific data sets.  Unfortunately, there are way too many people in our country that are ignorant, willfully or otherwise, about how science works and how theories and therapeutic approaches change as data is obtained.
 

1.  Boosters:  Biden announced that prematurely and was wrong to do so until the FDA thoroughly reviewed the data.  They are doing so today.  Some data especially from Israel suggest that boosters can be very effective especially in older individuals.

 

2.  Natural vs. vaccine induced immunity.  This needs to be studied further.  Studies should be done as to how long immunity lasts in both groups, what antibody titers  are developed by each and such.  There are clearly some that get repeated Covid infections and some that do so after immunization.  We need data on percentages of each and severity of each.

 

3.  Masks:  I am currently looking through a Medline search I did using the search terms Covid and masks.  Over 2000 references came up.  In reviewing the first 200 there are about 20 or so that show observational or laboratory data on mask effectiveness, plus several meta-analyses of mask studies.  The vast majority (over 90%) show a mitigating effect of masks, helping prevent spread of aerosols or droplets which are the main source of transmission. Thus the preponderance of the evidence shows masks are helpful and it is far past time to quit arguing about it.

 

4. Masking children:  I was in the camp of not doing so until the delta variant.  The delta variant is much more infectious and many more children are being hospitalized now.  The data suggest mortality rates in kids with delta is still low, due in part to their age and to advances in treatment strategies.  The only protection kids under the age of 12 have is masks.  My opinion: teachers and other school personnel should  be required to be vaccinated, kids 12and up should be vaccinated.  Kids should be in school with their friends learning and should be masked or not based on the local data such as vaccination status in a given community.  Anecdotally, I talk to kids and they have less problems wearing masks that some parents, who use their children as political pawns to push an agenda.

 

You ask which science is right, as if it can only be one way of the other.  I’ll put this as kindly as I can; it shows you don’t understand the nature of science and research.  The people fighting this have made it their life’s work to battle infectious disease.  I am proud to know many of them.  And our country and the world would be way better off banding together and following the science, rather that diving down conspiracy laden rabbit holes.

Thoughtful response, and I appreciate you going into each post.  
 

That said, regarding your last paragraph… My point is the exact opposite.   I don’t believe one view of the science is right… I think there’s different viewpoints within the scientific community on many of these issues.   There’s also a risk analysis about how far do we go… lots of red states will accept higher infection rates in order to keep businesses alive, help those dealing with mental health issues and force schools to remain open during most of this pandemic.  Does it mean they are 100% correct?  Probably not.  Does it mean they’re 100% wrong?  Probably not. 
 

This is an incredibly complicated issue and those who refuse to even acknowledge that there are, many times, two sides to the coin are why we are where we are as a society. 
 

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by SCBills

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Thoughtful response, and I appreciate you going into each post.  
 

That said, regarding your last paragraph… My point is the exact opposite.   I don’t believe one view of the science is right… I think there’s different viewpoints within the scientific community on many of these issues.   There’s also a risk analysis about how far do we go… lots of red states will accept higher infection rates in order to keep businesses alive, help those dealing with mental health issues and force schools to remain open during most of this pandemic.  Does it mean they are 100% correct?  Probably not.  Does it mean they’re 100% wrong?  Probably not. 
 

This is an incredibly complicated issue and those who refuse to even acknowledge that there are, many times, two sides to the coin are why we are where we are as a society. 
 

 

Thanks for clarifying.  As for your red state comments, the data is pretty clear.  Get people vaccinated and for those that cannot be vaccinated yet masks.  I outlined this above.  If every governor in every state was truly invested in making the best decisions to keep schools and businesses open and functional, based on available evidence, they’d be aggressive in educating their populations on what the science says. Rather, they are treating it as a political vs. a health issue and hiding behind individual choice, and ignoring that this is a public crisis that demands we all do our part.
 

Here’s where I think we disagree.  If you put 100 epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists in a room and asked for their scientific judgement on vaccines and masks, I would estimate that 95 of them minimum would take the affirmative position on both.  You seem to imply because 5 of them differ their opinion should hold equal weight.  That is not how scientific or medical treatments or advances work.

[SCBills]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Thanks for clarifying.  As for your red state comments, the data is pretty clear.  Get people vaccinated and for those that cannot be vaccinated yet masks.  I outlined this above.  If every governor in every state was truly invested in making the best decisions to keep schools and businesses open and functional, based on available evidence, they’d be aggressive in educating their populations on what the science says. Rather, they are treating it as a political vs. a health issue and hiding behind individual choice, and ignoring that this is a public crisis that demands we all do our part.
 

Here’s where I think we disagree.  If you put 100 epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists in a room and asked for their scientific judgement on vaccines and masks, I would estimate that 95 of them minimum would take the affirmative position on both.  You seem to imply because 5 of them differ their opinion should hold equal weight.  That is not how scientific or medical treatments or advances work.

My main point of contention is the absolute disregard for natural immunity and the obsession with vaccine mandates.  I’m anti-masking kids because I think it’s terrible policy given the risk involved, but - as an adult - I’ll wear a mask if need be.  
 

The main thing I’m saying is that we shouldn’t make decisions solely based on what someone like Fauci says.   He should be taken into consideration, but this is something we have to learn to live with.  Business leaders, mental health advocates, and the fact we are a free society should also be taken into consideration. 
 

If a governor tells people to talk to their doctor and make the best decision on vaccination for themselves, that’s the appropriate response to this virus.   You clearly think vaccines should be mandated. I do not.  
 

Why are only red state governors being political, in your opinion?   Ron DeSantis has been attacked nonstop by the President, and was told he was promoting “voodoo drugs” by some on the left, until he was proven correct on Monoclonal Treatment, and all of a sudden Biden decides to federalize Regeneron and cut supply by 50% to Florida in the name of equity.   Now DeSantis has to try to buy from GSK to help his state which is middle of the pack in vaccinations and 52% of those receiving antibody treatment were vaccinated. 
 

One side, primarily, just wants to live their lives.  The other side uses this to wage war on those who don’t comply…. Yet you believe it’s Republicans politicizing this? 

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, SCBills said:

My main point of contention is the absolute disregard for natural immunity and the obsession with vaccine mandates.  I’m anti-masking kids because I think it’s terrible policy given the risk involved, but - as an adult - I’ll wear a mask if need be.  
 

The main thing I’m saying is that we shouldn’t make decisions solely based on what someone like Fauci says.   He should be taken into consideration, but this is something we have to learn to live with.  Business leaders, mental health advocates, and the fact we are a free society should also be taken into consideration. 
 

If a governor tells people to talk to their doctor and make the best decision on vaccination for themselves, that’s the appropriate response to this virus.   You clearly think vaccines should be mandated. I do not.  
 

Why are only red state governors being political, in your opinion?   Ron DeSantis has been attacked nonstop by the President, and was told he was promoting “voodoo drugs” by some on the left, until he was proven correct on Monoclonal Treatment, and all of a sudden Biden decides to federalize Regeneron and cut supply by 50% to Florida in the name of equity.   Now DeSantis has to try to buy from GSK to help his state which is middle of the pack in vaccinations and 52% of those receiving antibody treatment were vaccinated. 
 

One side, primarily, just wants to live their lives.  The other side uses this to wage war on those who don’t comply…. Yet you believe it’s Republicans politicizing this? 

Because the red state governors are not following science.  They are pandering.  DeSantis wouldn’t need all the Regeneron if he focused on prevention in the first place. And we knew way before DeSantis started touting it that Regeneron was an effective treatment.  I know folks at Eli Lilly who worked on it early on.

 

I believe in mandated vaccines because it is the medically rational thing to do in order to control the pandemic.  I have already commented on wanting more studies if natural immunity.  As for Fauci, he is the world expert in infectious diseases, but he is not making decisions on his own.  The CDC and FDA and thousands of dedicated scientists around the globe are working on this.  As data comes in, recommendations follow.  And despite all the hand wringing over long term side effects and such, medical treatments are based on benefit:risk ratio, and the benefits of vaccination far outweigh any risk.  Outweighs it by miles and miles.

 

Your last comment makes clear you’re not really interested in stopping this thing, and that you want to make it all about politics.  You think those who want to fight are interested in living their lives and people like me who want to beat this thing are not. Frankly, your contention is ridiculous.  Everyone wants to get back to normal, but your view will unnecessarily cause more death.

[SCBills]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Because the red state governors are not following science.  They are pandering.  DeSantis wouldn’t need all the Regeneron if he focused on prevention in the first place. And we knew way before DeSantis started touting it that Regeneron was an effective treatment.  I know folks at Eli Lilly who worked on it early on.

 

I believe in mandated vaccines because it is the medically rational thing to do in order to control the pandemic.  I have already commented on wanting more studies if natural immunity.  As for Fauci, he is the world expert in infectious diseases, but he is not making decisions on his own.  The CDC and FDA and thousands of dedicated scientists around the globe are working on this.  As data comes in, recommendations follow.  And despite all the hand wringing over long term side effects and such, medical treatments are based on benefit:risk ratio, and the benefits of vaccination far outweigh any risk.  Outweighs it by miles and miles.

 

Your last comment makes clear you’re not really interested in stopping this thing, and that you want to make it all about politics.  You think those who want to fight are interested in living their lives and people like me who want to beat this thing are not. Frankly, your contention is ridiculous.  Everyone wants to get back to normal, but your view will unnecessarily cause more death.

You’ve been pretty civil and intelligent in discussing this, so we can probably leave it here as an agree to disagree on approach to the virus … but I’d be remiss if I didn’t say, for all your knowledge of the science surrounding this, it’s concerning that you believe we can “stop this thing”….  If that’s the barometer, we will never get back to normal, and it seems to many like myself, that people like you, have no intentions of ever wanting to do so.  

[oldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, SCBills said:

You’ve been pretty civil and intelligent in discussing this, so we can probably leave it here as an agree to disagree on approach to the virus … but I’d be remiss if I didn’t say, for all your knowledge of the science surrounding this, it’s concerning that you believe we can “stop this thing”….  If that’s the barometer, we will never get back to normal, and it seems to many like myself, that people like you, have no intentions of ever wanting to do so.  

Stop as in bring under control such that we do not need mitigation strategies like masks.  It is clear that Covid is a different creature than say smallpox; we won’t get rid of it.   I want it to be like the flu, get a booster every year, test in areas where there are outbreaks and have infected people isolate to prevent spread.

[Westside]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

No a scientist with 40 years experience in research, clinical care, and who sits on an actual FDA advisory panel.  Folks like you who have turned a public health crisis into a political football have killed people.  

Yeah, sure you are, and I’m the King of Spain.

19 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Stop as in bring under control such that we do not need mitigation strategies like masks.  It is clear that Covid is a different creature than say smallpox; we won’t get rid of it.   I want it to be like the flu, get a booster every year, test in areas where there are outbreaks and have infected people isolate to prevent spread.

FDA just voted against boosters. Lol

What a mess

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, Bidens_basement said:

Yeah, sure you are, and I’m the King of Spain.

FDA just voted against boosters. Lol

What a mess

Doctorate in Anatomy.  Over 40 peer reviewed publications.  Serve on an FDA advisory panel.  Have had NIH funded research grants.  Run several clinical labs.  
But you think you know more about science.

A little surprised at the FDA vote on boosters, but it shows they evaluate data and make decisions based on science.

 

Looks like they will approve a booster under EUA for those 65 and older.

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Doctorate in Anatomy.  Over 40 peer reviewed publications.  Serve on an FDA advisory panel.  Have had NIH funded research grants.  Run several clinical labs.  
But you think you know more about science.

A little surprised at the FDA vote on boosters, but it shows they evaluate data and make decisions based on science.

 

Looks like they will approve a booster under EUA for those 65 and older.

Perhaps Biden shouldn’t have made his political and announced boosters for everyone before FDA approval. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, SCBills said:

Perhaps Biden shouldn’t have made his political and announced boosters for everyone before FDA approval. 

In my first response to you I indicated Biden was wrong to do so.