Seahawks game on NFL network Jacob Hollister

[JESSEFEFFER]

18 hours ago, Pabstblueribbon said:

I remember watching a certain Bills vs Patriots game where Knox made an absolutely ridiculous catch with Patrick Chung draped all over him. It was a remarkable catch for any reciever, let alone a TE.. then I flash back to so many "easy" passes literally bouncing off his hands. 

 

I dont know what to make of it all. 

When he is in tight coverage he is totally focused on making the catch.  When running in the open he wants to know where the defenders are and is less focused on the ball.  That's my theory anyways.

[MJS]

5 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Are you describing Knox? who is not as good a pass catchers as Hollister? or are you saying Hollister is just that notch better a TE??? Inquiring minds want to know, 😁 

 

Words are fun… 😂

 

Go Bills!!!

They are basically the same except Knox has an up side.

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

The point is, if he's an "average run of the mill TE you can find on any team", how did he "stick" on a roster that was superbowl-bound and 1 injury away from counting on him for "next man up" or play on a Seahawks team that was in contention?  

I really don't understand the point. Do you think good teams don't have average players? Are they supposed to be all pro bowlers? Average players are depth on good teams.

 

His numbers are not impressive. He's not a starter. The only reason people are excited is because he went to school with Allen and people are sick of Knox.

 

Again, I'm not saying Knox is great. He hasn't been great. His numbers are also unimpressive.

 

Ideally, I'd like a better TE than both of them.

[Jay_Fixit]

Lol.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

47 minutes ago, MJS said:

They are basically the same except Knox has an up side.

I really don't understand the point. Do you think good teams don't have average players? Are they supposed to be all pro bowlers? Average players are depth on good teams.

 

His numbers are not impressive. He's not a starter. The only reason people are excited is because he went to school with Allen and people are sick of Knox.

 

Again, I'm not saying Knox is great. He hasn't been great. His numbers are also unimpressive.

 

Ideally, I'd like a better TE than both of them.

 

Well, we agree on that last sentence "Ideally, I'd like a better TE than both of them".

 

I think backups on the best teams tend to be better players than starters on bad teams.  That's why they're the best teams!   We saw that movie in B'lo for years where we would pick up guys off other team's scrap heaps to start, and when we cut players no one would pick them up.

 

I'm not saying Hollister is a star, but he's not a guy you can find "on any team" or a camp-fodder, depth guy.  He's a legit NFL-caliber player.  I think Hollister would probably have been starting on at least a dozen teams in the NFL his last 2 years. 

 

The numbers a TE puts up are heavily dependent upon the QB, the offensive scheme, and the receiving options.   Lots of folks here are now "jonesing" over Logan Thomas, whose numbers were profoundly unimpressive his first 7 years in the league, but who finally got into a situation where he was one of the two best receiving options on the team and his QBs would look for the TE checkdown a lot.  Gesicki is another TE who benefited by being one of the two best receiving options on Miami and having QBs who looked for the TE checkdown in Tua and Fitz.

 

Seattle, on the other hand, has two legit top, 1000+ yd WR in Metcalf and Lockett.  When he was the 3rd best option on their team in 2019, Hollister was putting up "Knox type" numbers.

 

My point is, in evaluating the quality of TE play especially, you have to look further than # receptions and receiving yards. 

 

I can't speak for "people" or even "people here" but for myself, I've been impressed by some of the film I saw of Hollister with Seattle, and I think he was signed to be a contender to start at TE - a "shot across the bows" for Knox as it were.

 

Now coming full circle, would I have liked to see us sign an upgrade to both of them, Absolutely

[CSBill]

The most overrated and useless point in this discussion: "He was a teammate of Josh Allen's at Wyoming." That has absolutely NO influence on the current circumstances. The players with the most ability will play.

[Rochesterfan]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

The numbers a TE puts up are heavily dependent upon the QB, the offensive scheme, and the receiving options.   Lots of folks here are now "jonesing" over Logan Thomas, whose numbers were profoundly unimpressive his first 7 years in the league, but who finally got into a situation where he was one of the two best receiving options on the team and his QBs would look for the TE checkdown a lot.  Gesicki is another TE who benefited by being one of the two best receiving options on Miami and having QBs who looked for the TE checkdown in Tua and Fitz.

 

 

 

I won’t argue if he is a middle of the road TE or could start for many lesser teams as I think we are quibbling over minor phrasing and slight differences, but the above quoted piece is so critical and it fits in with the entire Ertz discussion.

 

Hollister (or Knox, Kroft, or even Ertz for that matter) come in as the 4th or 5th best receiving option. They are behind Diggs, Sanders, and Beasley for sure and then you have McKenzie (McKittrick 😂) and Davis either of which when on the field may be better options.  Therefore; no matter who is in that role (and that the includes most TEs in the league - looking at you Logan Thomas) they are not going to put up elite numbers because the targets are not there.

 

I think the combined targets you see for Knox and Kroft last year are going to be about the combined targets for Hollister and Knox (maybe Ertz) and therefore the difference between any of them is tiny because the sample size is small. They have their check down, safety blanket, first down guy in Beasley - he just does it differently than a big TE.

 

Now with Josh talking a lot about in-breaking routes and the addition of Sanders maybe the TE moves up slightly in targets, but I still think the primary responsibility is going to be protect Josh as the hybrid FB and then as needed slip out into patterns to occupy space and pick up 30 catches for 400 yards and be a big target around the goal line.  The same role we have seen the last 3 years.  

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[Don Otreply]

8 hours ago, MJS said:

They are basically the same except Knox has an up side.

I really don't understand the point. Do you think good teams don't have average players? Are they supposed to be all pro bowlers? Average players are depth on good teams.

 

His numbers are not impressive. He's not a starter. The only reason people are excited is because he went to school with Allen and people are sick of Knox.

 

Again, I'm not saying Knox is great. He hasn't been great. His numbers are also unimpressive.

 

Ideally, I'd like a better TE than both of them.

Knox thus far has shown little upside outside of a couple plays, for everyone’s sake let’s hope he gains some point of catch confidence, or legal stickum, 😁 otherwise Hollister may end up our guy which would be at least a guy who will catch what’s thrown to him at a higher rate… 👍

[ColoradoBills]

One thing for certain is Hollister will give Knox some competition during camp/preseason.  Something he hasn't had in the last 2 years.

With Kroft never 100% healthy and Sweeney hurt last year Knox has been a default starter.  I will hope that competition will bring out the

best in all 3 of these guys and someone can step up enough to make the TE position at least adequate and not a weakness.

 

I hope for the same at RB and the run game.  Let's watch the preseason and let things play out.

 

With some continued improvement from Josh he has the ability to make a "average" TE something more than "average".

[starrymessenger]

On 7/15/2021 at 1:20 PM, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Knox has the Jadaveon (sp?) Clowney syndrome. One absolutely ridiculous beast mode play and has never lived up to to it since. If you can’t produce in this offense then there is something wrong. Then again, he could make that 3rd year leap so I’m not completely unsold on him. To me, #1 Tight End is the battle to watch. So many different scenarios can play out especially if Ertz is signed. We shall see… 👀

Agree. If after a couple of years in the system Knox can’t produce in spite of his athleticism then there is a real problem. Especially the drops. Our pass catchers are very good but in reality the largest part of their success is due entirely to Josh Allen. Even Diggs is much better because of what Josh can do for and with him. Josh Allen has not been able to make Knox better. Time is running out.

 

[ghostwriter]

Hollister certainly has the potential to explode for a monster season. I find it strange how his YPR so low, he seems to be very athletic. Athletic enough to the point where Buffalo can start running some Twin TE sets and power run packages with Knox in there.
 

TE is a funny position, it seems to be a position where it takes time for guys to develop and mature. He could have a big season, like Knox, once again, he’s very athletic and has positional versatility. Could play TE, could play FB and can also offer a lot as a receiving FB/H-Back as well.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

2 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

Agree. If after a couple of years in the system Knox can’t produce in spite of his athleticism then there is a real problem. Especially the drops. Our pass catchers are very good but in reality the largest part of their success is due entirely to Josh Allen. Even Diggs is much better because of what Josh can do for and with him. Josh Allen has not been able to make Knox better. Time is running out.

 

Bills fans know all too much about how much a nicely thrown ball getting dropped can affect the game. I feel we need better catching from RB too (no, I’m not referencing the Singletary drop orrrr maybe I am?) Those positions are called “safety valves” for a reason. I feel Allen and pretty much all quarterbacks benefit so much from a great tight end and/or multi-purpose runningbacks. Who wouldn’t like an Alvin Kamara or Antonio Gates on this team. Unfortunately, a great TE is harder to find than a great WR. Who was the Bills last good TE? 

[LABILLBACKER]

On 7/14/2021 at 6:38 AM, machine gun kelly said:

Saint, I don’t disagree, but he was relegated to the third TE in Seattle.  He has a chance as Don points out for the 1st position with us given how weak that position group is on our team.

 

Considering Holloster has a 67% completion vs. 55% for Knox, and was a teammate of Allen at Wyoming, I think very probable he has a chance.  Should be a fun camp.  Let the best sticky hands man win.  I don’t care

which is #1 as long as they prove it on the field.

I don't think Josh and Dawson have any chemistry considering all the drops. It wouldn't surprise me to see Hollister have an immediate impact and quickly vault to TE1.  If we were going to deal for Etrz it would've happened by now.

[starrymessenger]

2 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Bills fans know all too much about how much a nicely thrown ball getting dropped can affect the game. I feel we need better catching from RB too (no, I’m not referencing the Singletary drop orrrr maybe I am?) Those positions are called “safety valves” for a reason. I feel Allen and pretty much all quarterbacks benefit so much from a great tight end and/or multi-purpose runningbacks. Who wouldn’t like an Alvin Kamara or Antonio Gates on this team. Unfortunately, a great TE is harder to find than a great WR. Who was the Bills last good TE? 

 Idk except I’m pretty sure it wasn’t Robert Royal. Long time fans seem to like Metzalaars. I don’t think the Bills have ever had a much above average TEs. Charles Clay could have been the guy but his career was compromised by injuries. 

[eball]

I think the Hollister addition gives Daboll an opportunity to add a wrinkle to the offense and play both Knox and Hollister in certain packages.  They are both athletic guys who can create matchup problems, and with them both in the game it should give the run game a boost. I’d look for more 21 out of the Bills this year to give opponents more to plan for, with Diggs and one of Sanders/Beasley/Davis as the WRs.

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, eball said:

I think the Hollister addition gives Daboll an opportunity to add a wrinkle to the offense and play both Knox and Hollister in certain packages.  They are both athletic guys who can create matchup problems, and with them both in the game it should give the run game a boost. I’d look for more 21 out of the Bills this year to give opponents more to plan for, with Diggs and one of Sanders/Beasley/Davis as the WRs.

 

I hear what you are saying and if I am an opposing DC - I would be so excited to see both more runs and 21 personnel because basically you have the Bills taking plays away from their best players.

 

On offense - who are the top skill players?  
Allen

Diggs

Sanders

Beasley

Davis/McKenzie

then you get to:

Knox

Singletary

Moss

Hollister

 

I want as much of my top athletes and play makers on the field as much as possible and if I am a DC - that scares me. If you take Sanders or Beasley off to have Knox and Hollister does that create more match up issues than having 4 WRs that can all get open?  
 

I can cover Knox and/or Hollister 1:1 with a LB or safety and allow me to double cover the WRs and the defense is at an advantage.  With the top 4 WRs this team has when healthy - you are trying to cover 2 WRs with your 4th DB and you can only double one guy most likely and all 4 of the top guys can beat man and/or zone coverage.

 

I want the best guys on the field and the ball in their hands as much as possible - give me what we saw last year all day long getting the ball to play,Akers all over the field.

 

[eball]

15 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

I want as much of my top athletes and play makers on the field as much as possible and if I am a DC - that scares me. If you take Sanders or Beasley off to have Knox and Hollister does that create more match up issues than having 4 WRs that can all get open?  
 

I can cover Knox and/or Hollister 1:1 with a LB or safety and allow me to double cover the WRs and the defense is at an advantage.  With the top 4 WRs this team has when healthy - you are trying to cover 2 WRs with your 4th DB and you can only double one guy most likely and all 4 of the top guys can beat man and/or zone coverage.

 

I want the best guys on the field and the ball in their hands as much as possible - give me what we saw last year all day long getting the ball to play,Akers all over the field.

 

The Bills need to run the ball more effectively.  Notice I said "more effectively" and not just "more."  21 personnel with Knox and Hollister gives them better blocking, those two guys are NOT easily covered with a LB or S, and if other teams do try that there are fewer guys in run support.  You still have two WRs on the field, plus either Moss or Motor.

 

The offense needs to be diverse.  They aren't going to shift away from a passing focus but they can give more and different looks that are just as dangerous.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by eball

[Rochesterfan]

56 minutes ago, eball said:

 

The Bills need to run the ball more effectively.  Notice I said "more effectively" and not just "more."  21 personnel with Knox and Hollister gives them better blocking, those two guys are NOT easily covered with a LB or S, and if other teams do try that there are fewer guys in run support.  You still have two WRs on the field, plus either Moss or Motor.

 

The offense needs to be diverse.  They aren't going to shift away from a passing focus but they can give more and different looks that are just as dangerous.

 

 

 

You might be right - I just do not see Knox, Hollister, or even Ertz for that matter as “just as dangerous”.  I see them as JAGs - and neither Knox nor Hollister are especially strong in the run blocking game - meaning teams go base defense/nickle and I think are actually better able to stop the run because the guys they are bringing in are better than the guys we are bringing in.

 

I get wanting to be more diverse - I think the Bills should run better from a 4WR set opening teams up with draws and screens.  
 

We saw Knox struggle to block in the H-Back role a ton last year and although I think Hollister is slightly better in that role - I don’t think either are much above average as blockers.

 

You do have 2 WRs, but now they are being covered by the #1 and #2 DBs and you are leaving 2 safeties to allow high/low or inside/out coverage - basically taking them out of the offense - unless either Knox/Hollister hurts them repeatedly or we actually get much more effective running the ball.  And unless running becomes a major focus - I think the running game is in for just a slight change.

 

I honestly don’t care about how they go about the offense - just keep improving.  I just prefer to see them put as much talent on the field as possible to exploit mis-matches and the biggest mis-matches to me are our #3 and #4 and/or #5 WRs versus any teams 3, 4, and 5 DBs.  Knox has the potential to be a huge mis-match, but right now he and all of the TEs are 20-40 catch guys and 4-5 TDs from around the goal line - they are not weapons.

[eball]

@Rochesterfan I'm admittedly higher on Knox than a lot of people...I think he is in the same "raw" mold as Allen was coming out and if (hopefully) he has now learned the position he is ready to break out.  I do believe Daboll can create some mismatches with he and Hollister.  We'll see.  It's fun to pontificate though!

[machine gun kelly]

If we go 11 personnel which is likely then I’m betting it will be Hollister at some point.  I don’t hate Knox, but he had two years.  Hollister on other teams is not lighting them up, but he is relatively dependable.  Knox is not.

 

we probably if this Beasley issue os resolved which I hope, will end up in more 10 personnel than anyone.  We’ll lean on 4 wides a lot especially if Hodgins shines again as two tall WR’s (Davis and Hodgins) almost serves as a tight end.  It’s not like on this day they are blocking a lot.

 

More of the top TE’s are lined up out wide so as a WR, not an old school TE.

[RoyBatty is alive]

On 7/14/2021 at 8:09 AM, Don Otreply said:

He is more consistent and a better pass catching TE than Knox, and he sure as hell is gunning for the #1 TE designation in this team, wether that happens or not Idk, but it is one of those TC battles to watch.

Yea but is he a graduate of TE University like Knox is?