Shaw66 Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 29 minutes ago, The Dean said: I agree in principle with your position on the safeties. But, and this is just from my impression of what I hear/read, as a pair, they are VERY highly regarded. I recall hearing/reading things like "among the best safety duo" "maybe the best safety pair". But I believe on an individual basis, they may not be considered "elite". And I understand why some think that. Not sure that matters that much to me, though. I'll take these guys back there any time. Yes. This. And yes, I'll take them anytime.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 On 7/13/2021 at 10:21 AM, Shaw66 said: Well, I agree that's true about the press. But when we're talking about the opinions of coaches and GMs, I disagree. They study more film in a month than any of us watches in years. I say "study" and "watches" deliberately; they not only look at a lot more film, they actually understand what they're looking at. Do some of them still have biases? Of course, but even many of those biases are based on legitimate opinions they've developed watching these guys play. So, I agree with others when I see someone ranked Allen 9th. That's a coach or scout or GM saying he would take eight guys over Allen. I'm hard pressed to see how that could be, whether it's a guy you, want for one game, one season, or one career. Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, okay. Herbert is a stretch. Watson is a stretch. Every other guy is a stretch. You have to stretch on FIVE guys to conclude Allen is ninth. I don't get that. Of course as a Bills fan I agree with you. But just trying to suss out what someone else may be thinking... Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes. Top QB last year in terms of passing: Deshaun Watson, shorn of his best WR and playing on a crap team. A threat with his legs, and has been a top QB for 3 seasons. Matt Ryan. I wouldn't take him over Allen, but he was a top passing QB on a crap team last season and has been a good QB for a long time. Russ Wilson. Top QB for the last 6 years or so. Superbowl winner. MVP candidate at the beginning of the season, said he's the best QB in football. Dual Threat QBs: Lamar Jackson, league MVP of 2019. I can see where some guys would have him in the mix. Total yards should count, so I can see where he's up there to some. Kyler Murray, dual threat with an arm. Again, I think rushing yards should count, so I can see where he's up there to some Again, not saying that's how I see it, but saying that based on last year's performance, plus history as a QB, I can see where a football knowledgeable guy might see it that way.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 2 hours ago, YattaOkasan said: Brady is interesting to me. I don’t think we win as many games if Brady is our QB and I think TB wins the same or more games if Allen is QB. Do you disagree with this(which)? From that logic I have Allen > Brady. The thing about Brady is that he's got this time proven ability to dial it up to another level when the game gets bigger and it's all on the line. Though IMHO, it was a total CF to have the Bucs beat the Packers in the NFC Championship. No QB who throws 3 picks should be going to the Superbowl. In my opinion.
GunnerBill Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 6 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Yes. This. And yes, I'll take them anytime. To me on the safeties the only other pair in the league that has performed better over the four year period that our guys have been together is Harrison Smith and Anthony Harris who I do think have been the absolute #1 duo in the league. Obviously that pair has now been broken up as Harris has gone to the Eagles. There have been other pairs who have had 1 or 2 years of great play as a pair in that period but the consistency and the longevity of Poyer and Hyde has been mighty impressive. And they are absolutely greater than the sum of their parts. I think Poyer is a better player than he often gets credit for but it is true neither individually are "elite" - as a combination their communication and their understanding is outstanding. 1
Stank_Nasty Posted July 16, 2021 Author Posted July 16, 2021 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: To me on the safeties the only other pair in the league that has performed better over the four year period that our guys have been together is Harrison Smith and Anthony Harris who I do think have been the absolute #1 duo in the league. Obviously that pair has now been broken up as Harris has gone to the Eagles. There have been other pairs who have had 1 or 2 years of great play as a pair in that period but the consistency and the longevity of Poyer and Hyde has been mighty impressive. And they are absolutely greater than the sum of their parts. I think Poyer is a better player than he often gets credit for but it is true neither individually are "elite" - as a combination their communication and their understanding is outstanding. The thing is Poyer has quietly filled up his stat sheet as well. His numbers are impressive. I’m not losing any sleep over it or anything but do you really think there are 15 safeties better than him?
YattaOkasan Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: The thing about Brady is that he's got this time proven ability to dial it up to another level when the game gets bigger and it's all on the line. Though IMHO, it was a total CF to have the Bucs beat the Packers in the NFC Championship. No QB who throws 3 picks should be going to the Superbowl. In my opinion. Yup I can appreciate that, and honestly Brady's run last year has really answered a lot of questions about his overall career. But at this moment I think Allen wins both those games (NFCC and SB) as well, and GB as you mentioned might have been easier for TB with Allen. I don't think that Brady gets us past the Colts when we needed someone to make plays. So if were talking about 1 game who do we prefer, I still give the nod to Allen (and frankly several QBs) over Brady. Edited July 16, 2021 by YattaOkasan
GunnerBill Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Stank_Nasty said: The thing is Poyer has quietly filled up his stat sheet as well. His numbers are impressive. I’m not losing any sleep over it or anything but do you really think there are 15 safeties better than him? He is right in that kind of range for me. He is not top 10. But I would have him somewhere in the top 20. 1
YattaOkasan Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: He is right in that kind of range for me. He is not top 10. But I would have him somewhere in the top 20. I'm guessing Hyde is right in that range somewhere for you too?
Stank_Nasty Posted July 16, 2021 Author Posted July 16, 2021 11 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Yes. This. And yes, I'll take them anytime. 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: He is right in that kind of range for me. He is not top 10. But I would have him somewhere in the top 20. It sorta crazy to me how safety has become such a devalued position in the league yet the Bills are present day proof of how valuable a good set can be.
GunnerBill Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 26 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said: I'm guessing Hyde is right in that range somewhere for you too? I'd have Hyde a tad below Poyer because I don't think the last season and a half he has been quite the same player he was his first two years here I think he has just hit the top of his downslope. Not that he has dropped off a cliff at all but I think whereas the first two years Poyer and Hyde were genuinely interchangeable there has definitely been a move towards Poyer doing more of the athletically demanding work in the last season and a bit and Hyde has become much more of the regular centre fielder in the cover 3. It isn't a criticism of Hyde he is still a very important part of the team and a vital cog in the secondary and a great communicator and leader but he is also now in his 30s. I have been and remain a huge fan. His first two years in Buffalo I would have argued that he was a top 10 safety in the NFL and probably didn't get the props he deserved. 1
Shaw66 Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 26 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: It sorta crazy to me how safety has become such a devalued position in the league yet the Bills are present day proof of how valuable a good set can be. To you and Gunner - I'd guess that top-20 is a little low, but the whole point is that where they rank in some sort of poll where the participants are evaluating individual play isn't really relevant so far as McDermott and the Bills are concerned. If there were a way to do it, I'd like to see a ranking of NFL safeties in these categories: Tackling efficiency (or, to put it another way, missed tackles), assignment execution (percentage of plays where the guy executed his assignment), post-snap decision making (percentage of plays where, faced with an instantaneous decision, the guy adjusted to respond to what the offense is doing and what the other defenders are doing). Those are the categories where Poyer and Hyde shine, and on top of that, they play off each other well, in that each one trusts the other one to react in the right ways. They're called safeties for a reason, and the reason is that they are the last line of defense, their job is to keep the team safe. In that role, those two together are easily top 10, probably top 5. 3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I'd have Hyde a tad below Poyer because I don't think the last season and a half he has been quite the same player he was his first two years here I think he has just hit the top of his downslope. Not that he has dropped off a cliff at all but I think whereas the first two years Poyer and Hyde were genuinely interchangeable there has definitely been a move towards Poyer doing more of the athletically demanding work in the last season and a bit and Hyde has become much more of the regular centre fielder in the cover 3. It isn't a criticism of Hyde he is still a very important part of the team and a vital cog in the secondary and a great communicator and leader but he is also now in his 30s. I have been and remain a huge fan. His first two years in Buffalo I would have argued that he was a top 10 safety in the NFL and probably didn't get the props he deserved. I've had the same feeling about him, but sometimes I wonder if I get swayed by the percentage of big plays a guy makes. Poyer was much more visible in that department last season for sure. But I don't see Hyde missing tackles or out of position or blowing assignments. All those years of watching Jim Leonard convinced me that speed and spectacular plays are not what playing safety is about, and I think that even if Hyde is a bit past his prime physically, his brain power may carry him for a few more seasons. There was a game late last season, late in the game, when the Bills had him back returning a punt. He's a valuable guy. And I don't think you're saying anything else. Happy to have him.
GunnerBill Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: To you and Gunner - I'd guess that top-20 is a little low, but the whole point is that where they rank in some sort of poll where the participants are evaluating individual play isn't really relevant so far as McDermott and the Bills are concerned. If there were a way to do it, I'd like to see a ranking of NFL safeties in these categories: Tackling efficiency (or, to put it another way, missed tackles), assignment execution (percentage of plays where the guy executed his assignment), post-snap decision making (percentage of plays where, faced with an instantaneous decision, the guy adjusted to respond to what the offense is doing and what the other defenders are doing). Those are the categories where Poyer and Hyde shine, and on top of that, they play off each other well, in that each one trusts the other one to react in the right ways. They're called safeties for a reason, and the reason is that they are the last line of defense, their job is to keep the team safe. In that role, those two together are easily top 10, probably top 5. I've had the same feeling about him, but sometimes I wonder if I get swayed by the percentage of big plays a guy makes. Poyer was much more visible in that department last season for sure. But I don't see Hyde missing tackles or out of position or blowing assignments. All those years of watching Jim Leonard convinced me that speed and spectacular plays are not what playing safety is about, and I think that even if Hyde is a bit past his prime physically, his brain power may carry him for a few more seasons. There was a game late last season, late in the game, when the Bills had him back returning a punt. He's a valuable guy. And I don't think you're saying anything else. Happy to have him. I agree with pretty much all of this. As a duo they are top 5 even if individually I might put them at about 15th and 20th in the league. Their understanding is so instinctive and they can communicate to one another with the slightest head nod and the other knows exactly what the message is. In 4 years I remember two plays where they legitimately screwed up the communication - both in 2019 - one of the long Sanders runs v Philly and the Hurts TD vs Baltimore. And Hyde has fewer big plays because since that Philly game where he really had a rough day they have used him in the box far less. It was an acknowledgment I think that physically he was probably just slowing a tad but his brain hasn't slowed at all and in the centre fielder role where he can read and react he absolutely has another couple of years of good play in him. The Bills obviously think so too they just re-upped him. It did mean they found it a bit harder to disguise some stuff though in 2020 because pretty much now you know it is Poyer coming down to play the box.
Stank_Nasty Posted July 16, 2021 Author Posted July 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Shaw66 said: To you and Gunner - I'd guess that top-20 is a little low, but the whole point is that where they rank in some sort of poll where the participants are evaluating individual play isn't really relevant so far as McDermott and the Bills are concerned. If there were a way to do it, I'd like to see a ranking of NFL safeties in these categories: Tackling efficiency (or, to put it another way, missed tackles), assignment execution (percentage of plays where the guy executed his assignment), post-snap decision making (percentage of plays where, faced with an instantaneous decision, the guy adjusted to respond to what the offense is doing and what the other defenders are doing). Those are the categories where Poyer and Hyde shine, and on top of that, they play off each other well, in that each one trusts the other one to react in the right ways. They're called safeties for a reason, and the reason is that they are the last line of defense, their job is to keep the team safe. In that role, those two together are easily top 10, probably top 5. I've had the same feeling about him, but sometimes I wonder if I get swayed by the percentage of big plays a guy makes. Poyer was much more visible in that department last season for sure. But I don't see Hyde missing tackles or out of position or blowing assignments. All those years of watching Jim Leonard convinced me that speed and spectacular plays are not what playing safety is about, and I think that even if Hyde is a bit past his prime physically, his brain power may carry him for a few more seasons. There was a game late last season, late in the game, when the Bills had him back returning a punt. He's a valuable guy. And I don't think you're saying anything else. Happy to have him. 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I agree with pretty much all of this. As a duo they are top 5 even if individually I might put them at about 15th and 20th in the league. Their understanding is so instinctive and they can communicate to one another with the slightest head nod and the other knows exactly what the message is. In 4 years I remember two plays where they legitimately screwed up the communication - both in 2019 - one of the long Sanders runs v Philly and the Hurts TD vs Baltimore. And Hyde has fewer big plays because since that Philly game where he really had a rough day they have used him in the box far less. It was an acknowledgment I think that physically he was probably just slowing a tad but his brain hasn't slowed at all and in the centre fielder role where he can read and react he absolutely has another couple of years of good play in him. The Bills obviously think so too they just re-upped him. It did mean they found it a bit harder to disguise some stuff though in 2020 because pretty much now you know it is Poyer coming down to play the box. Some love for poyer with some numbers to back it up. Funny how we have been talking about this today and i stumble upon this article. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-all-30-and-over-defensive-team-aaron-donald-paces-unit-saints-eagles-have-multiple-first-team-picks/ S: Jordan Poyer -- Buffalo Bills (30) "A safety that can be disguised as a hybrid linebacker, Poyer was the only safety to record 120-plus tackled and two sacks last season. Poyer finished with 124 tackles (91 solo), two sacks, two interceptions, and five passes defended. Opposing quarterbacks had a 76.2 passer rating targeting Poyer, who mostly lined up in the box. Poyer is one of just three safeties to have 100-plus tackles in each of the last three seasons (Jessie Bates, Budda Baker). He's a valuable part of Buffalo's defense."
DCofNC Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 17 hours ago, YattaOkasan said: Brady is interesting to me. I don’t think we win as many games if Brady is our QB and I think TB wins the same or more games if Allen is QB. Do you disagree with this(which)? From that logic I have Allen > Brady. I think you have to take it in context, part of being the best QB is your situation. Brady is a straight winner, his team is built around him and he kills it. I think Allen is the better player all around right now, BUT if you have to win one game, Brady in a team like he has is scary as hell. Allen is great, but is not a truly proven winner. That’s not saying he can’t win or isn’t a winner, but he hasn’t won anything yet. Brady has rings..
HappyDays Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 1 minute ago, DCofNC said: I think you have to take it in context, part of being the best QB is your situation. Brady is a straight winner, his team is built around him and he kills it. I think Allen is the better player all around right now, BUT if you have to win one game, Brady in a team like he has is scary as hell. Allen is great, but is not a truly proven winner. That’s not saying he can’t win or isn’t a winner, but he hasn’t won anything yet. Brady has rings.. So do you think if Brady and Mahomes traded teams in the Super Bowl, the Chiefs would have won? Because Brady is a "winner"? I think that's crazy. 1
Shaw66 Posted July 16, 2021 Posted July 16, 2021 4 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said: Some love for poyer with some numbers to back it up. Funny how we have been talking about this today and i stumble upon this article. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-all-30-and-over-defensive-team-aaron-donald-paces-unit-saints-eagles-have-multiple-first-team-picks/ S: Jordan Poyer -- Buffalo Bills (30) "A safety that can be disguised as a hybrid linebacker, Poyer was the only safety to record 120-plus tackled and two sacks last season. Poyer finished with 124 tackles (91 solo), two sacks, two interceptions, and five passes defended. Opposing quarterbacks had a 76.2 passer rating targeting Poyer, who mostly lined up in the box. Poyer is one of just three safeties to have 100-plus tackles in each of the last three seasons (Jessie Bates, Budda Baker). He's a valuable part of Buffalo's defense." High praise for Poyer.
DCofNC Posted July 17, 2021 Posted July 17, 2021 5 hours ago, HappyDays said: So do you think if Brady and Mahomes traded teams in the Super Bowl, the Chiefs would have won? Because Brady is a "winner"? I think that's crazy. I said it earlier, Maholmes is my answer to, 1 game to win, best for this season and best for the future, so I’d take Maholmes.. With what the Bucs did to Maholmes, nobody was going to win in that situation. All that said Brady has won on the biggest stage many many times, Allen has not, so if I am in a “must win” game, I’d feel better rolling the Goat out there and taking my chances over somebody who hasn’t been there and done that.
Thurman#1 Posted July 17, 2021 Posted July 17, 2021 (edited) On 7/13/2021 at 3:33 PM, Doc Brown said: Not even close. Zeke Elliott, Matt Judon, Jamal Adams, Andrus Peat, Marshon Lattimore, and Evan Engram off the top of my head. Edmunds didn't deserve a pro bowl nod this past season though. Edmunds did deserve the Pro Bowl for how he played after he was healthy again, I believe. But you're right that if you consider also the time when he was playing with one shoulder, over the whole season he didn't deserve it. But people seem to allow guys who are having issues make the Pro Bowl if they go back to Pro Bowl standard for most of the season. The classic Bills example is Jason Peters the year he missed camp. The first four to six weeks he was in great shape - he'd been working out hard, as the Bills noted - but not football shape, and it showed. He wasn't good. But by week 7 or so he was kicking butt and taking names again and people noticed and everyone voted him on. And Peters haters here in Buffalo pissed and moaned about that selection for a decade, long after it was wildly obvious that the Eagles had valued him right and we hadn't. Edited July 17, 2021 by Thurman#1
Thurman#1 Posted July 17, 2021 Posted July 17, 2021 Thanks for the interesting safety discussion the last page or two. Great stuff.
Doc Brown Posted July 17, 2021 Posted July 17, 2021 18 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: And Peters haters here in Buffalo pissed and moaned about that selection for a decade, long after it was wildly obvious that the Eagles had valued him right and we hadn't. Not a bad comparison but luckily we have two more years to evaluate Edmunds. I wouldn't make him the highest paid LB in the league right now though if he threatened to hold out like Peters did.
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