Ralph Wilsons Legacy

[BADOLBILZ]

12 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

I think people have missed out on his greatest achievement.  He was instrumental in negotiating revenue sharing between the franchises.  That is his greatest legacy.  

 

 

Nah....... the NFL already had revenue sharing by the early 1960's.

    

The greatest contribution Ralph had to promoting revenue sharing was co-starting a rival league.......the competitive pressure likely forced the NFL's last team with a regional tv deal(Cleveland) to give it up for the greater good..........and overall both league's knew the chain was only as strong as it's weakest link so they got in the habit of looking out for each other (another thing Ralph did with helping the financially weaker Patriots and Raiders franchises).

[BADOLBILZ]

50 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

That was meant to illustrate that Buffalo didn't remain the 14th largest city for long.  But OK, how about 50th in population by 1990? 

 

The size of the city itself mattered a lot more in 1959 than 1990.

 

By 1990 the Bills were a regional franchise.

 

While the actual population of the city of Buffalo has declined slightly since 1959.........that doesn't take into account the sprawl or the fact that the population of southern Ontario has almost tripled etc..

 

Overall it's a good sized tv market with an established, rabid fanbase that puts a high priority on the product.

   

[klos63]

Legacy's are unimportant and overrated. Ralph was like anyone else, some good, some not so good. He has a statue, he's in the Hall of Fame, he's mostly remembered as a decent man. Let him RIP.

[JMF2006]

12 hours ago, clearwater cadet said:

What was the poison pill in the lease deal?  I remember it slightly, but I don't remember being such a big amount that it would deter anyone with the ability to buy a team for moving them thou?

Ted Rogers passing had a lot to do with it as well.

Think it was the Raiders not the Pats?

 

I think it was $450m or $500m which does not seem like much until you add that and the NFL's relocation money together and get almost $1b.

 

That narrowed the field to 3 serious buyers which was really only 2 as Trumps offer was a low ball fire sale number.

 

Even the Ted Rodgers/JBJ consortiums offer was low.

[BADOLBILZ]

21 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

Wilson didnt insert the NRA fee amount.  That side of the negotiation would be pressed by the county.  That would be like negotiating for higher rates on your car.  The Bills ask for money, the County/State demands more assurance.   What happened, was Wilson passed before the paint was dry on the renovations, creating a daunting lame duck period for an out-of-town owner, or a pricey buyout to be combined with relocation fees, new facility, and purchase price.

 

The most important factor in the Bills remaining in Buffalo is/was the existence of Terry Pegula and his financial situation.

 

Wilson always said the Bills would be sold to the highest bidder, and that they were.  The perfect storm of the timing of his death created an ideal situation that didnt make this thing overly appealing for out-of-town bidders.  Had he passed away in 2008, 2011, or 2020, it would have been a much different story.  Without Pegula, who knows?

 

Wilson never moved the team, and good on him.  I do think over the years he was wasnt wired to make a huge splash and up-front financial commitment it would take to relocate an NFL team.  Instead of dealing with a brand new stadium and forking over relocation fees, he seemed content to just collect his yearly profit and watch the team value increase steadily.  

 

 

Well said.

 

I didn't want to say it because it would have caused some outraged responses and links would have been demanded...........but moving a team is a big task and a good deal of risk.   As a solo owner with no committed young heirs to help carry the ball,  I never thought he had the ambition to go thru all of that.    You don't just roll into some new town,  unpack and set up the cash registers.   His heirs didn't want to carry on the business so he didn't have the same impetus to treat the organization like a going concern the way owner's with a family succession plan do.  

[Doc]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The size of the city itself mattered a lot more in 1959 than 1990.

 

By 1990 the Bills were a regional franchise.

 

While the actual population of the city of Buffalo has declined slightly since 1959.........that doesn't take into account the sprawl or the fact that the population of southern Ontario has almost tripled etc..

 

Overall it's a good sized tv market with an established, rabid fanbase that puts a high priority on the product.

 

You could say virtually the same about any team that has moved in the past 30 years.  And there have been some very rich owners who have moved teams from better markets than Buffalo. 

 

And despite the sprawl and Ontario population, the "local revenue" from things like naming rights, luxury boxes and higher ticket prices/PSL's have/will never materialize.  I am curious what ticket prices will look like and if they will have PSLs when they build the new stadium.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Doc

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

You could say virtually the same about any team that has moved in the past 30 years.  And there have been some very rich owners who have moved teams from better markets than Buffalo. 

 

And despite the sprawl and Ontario population, the "local revenue" from things like naming rights, luxury boxes and higher ticket prices/PSL's have/will never materialize.  I am curious what ticket prices will look like and if they will have PSLs when they build the new stadium.

 

I think you are confused about most of the moves that happened in the NFL.

 

Most of them were because of serious stadium issues.

 

Buffalo may have been a small market but they stepped up and built a modern NFL stadium.

 

In Baltimore in 1984 after resisting funding improvements to Memorial Stadium the Maryland state legislature actually passed a law allowing the city of Baltimore to seize the Colts away from the Irsay family.  

 

The Raiders, Rams, Browns, Chargers and Raiders again all had similar issues with extremely antiquated stadiums.

 

Those markets may have been wealthier but they were also pretty dismissive OR apathetic about their teams leaving at the time.

 

The pastures haven't all been greener..........St. Louis was a much smaller market than LA and they ended up moving again,   Baltimore to Cleveland was no massive windfall,   and the Chargers are basically fan-less in LA.    Even the Oilers downsized markets significantly to move to Nashville.

[clearwater cadet]

8 hours ago, JMF2006 said:

 

I think it was $450m or $500m which does not seem like much until you add that and the NFL's relocation money together and get almost $1b.

 

That narrowed the field to 3 serious buyers which was really only 2 as Trumps offer was a low ball fire sale number.

 

Even the Ted Rodgers/JBJ consortiums offer was low.

I looked it up last night in was 28,000,000.  in the seventh year of the current lease.  Chump change to these owner.

20 hours ago, Wacka said:

Both

I wish the Pats would have gone under!

[SirAndrew]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

You could say virtually the same about any team that has moved in the past 30 years.  And there have been some very rich owners who have moved teams from better markets than Buffalo. 

 

And despite the sprawl and Ontario population, the "local revenue" from things like naming rights, luxury boxes and higher ticket prices/PSL's have/will never materialize.  I am curious what ticket prices will look like and if they will have PSLs when they build the new stadium.

I see Southern Ontario often used to justify having a great market, but there are issues with that. First of all, it’s in another country, making some logistics and financial stuff complicated. Secondly, I’d like to know how much Ontario’s growth has increased interest in American Football. Ontario’s rapid growth consists of people from across the globe. I’m not convinced they’ve all warmed up to football yet. 

[clearwater cadet]

8 hours ago, JMF2006 said:

 

I think it was $450m or $500m which does not seem like much until you add that and the NFL's relocation money together and get almost $1b.

 

That narrowed the field to 3 serious buyers which was really only 2 as Trumps offer was a low ball fire sale number.

 

Even the Ted Rodgers/JBJ consortiums offer was low.

you are right I did look at it again it started in 2013 and runs thru 2023, with damages for relocation of 400,000,000 except for year 7 which was 28,000,000. The Toronto series ran from this 2008 to 2012, was suppose to run to 2013, Ted Roger dies Dec 2008 after they started the series.  I still believe the Bills and WNY would not have made it to the 2013 lease if Roger was alive at that time.  Once he died the whole Toronto thing lost a lot of steam.  With out Rogers around to push the issue the series was a failure and ended early knowing the Rogers family would not have the ability to ultimately acquire the team.  But going back to what I thought before, Ralph really didn't do anything to prevent a  possible relocation to Toronto or anywhere, once Rogers passed, Ralph's plan A went up in smoke and we he was stuck  looking for a new ownership, but he made sure there was a easy out in year 7 just so relocation was still a possibility.  I'm just glad to work out for us. 

[clearwater cadet]

29 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

I see Southern Ontario often used to justify having a great market, but there are issues with that. First of all, it’s in another country, making some logistics and financial stuff complicated. Secondly, I’d like to know how much Ontario’s growth has increased interest in American Football. Ontario’s rapid growth consists of people from across the globe. I’m not convinced they’ve all warmed up to football yet. 

Totally agree, but the NFL is all about market size for TV contracts, I had read the biggest problem with Bills and Southern Ontario is that although there is 12 million in Southern Ontario which from a distance point of view would normally be part of the Bills market, but the bills can not count that as part of there market because the Canadian Broadcast System has the right show what ever game they want, making southern Ontario not counted as part of the going TV deals.   Not sure if this is true, but make sense.

[Doc]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I think you are confused about most of the moves that happened in the NFL.

 

Most of them were because of serious stadium issues.

 

Buffalo may have been a small market but they stepped up and built a modern NFL stadium.

 

In Baltimore in 1984 after resisting funding improvements to Memorial Stadium the Maryland state legislature actually passed a law allowing the city of Baltimore to seize the Colts away from the Irsay family.  

 

The Raiders, Rams, Browns, Chargers and Raiders again all had similar issues with extremely antiquated stadiums.

 

Those markets may have been wealthier but they were also pretty dismissive OR apathetic about their teams leaving at the time.

 

The pastures haven't all been greener..........St. Louis was a much smaller market than LA and they ended up moving again,   Baltimore to Cleveland was no massive windfall,   and the Chargers are basically fan-less in LA.    Even the Oilers downsized markets significantly to move to Nashville.

 

Those stadiums were no more antiquated than The Ralph when it came to their primary function: hosting football games.  They (just like The Ralph) were only "antiquated" when it came to generating more local revenue for the owners to line their pockets with.  So they demanded new stadiums they knew weren't going to be built and left town.  Ralph just demanded that they upgrade/repair the existing stadium that the county owned.  And he knew that Buffalo would never be able to compete with the big markets when it came to local revenue.

 

But beyond all the conjecture, it's a proven fact that he voted against every team's relocation.  Even though teams moving meant a lot more money in his pocket from relocation fees and bigger TV markets.  IOW, he never believed teams should move, including his own.

 

And sure the pastures haven't all been greener.  But if the team left Buffalo, it wasn't coming back no matter how bad the new market was.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Doc

[BADOLBILZ]

17 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Those stadiums were no more antiquated than The Ralph when it came to their primary function: hosting football games.  They (just like The Ralph) were only "antiquated" when it came to generating more local revenue for the owners to line their pockets with.  So they demanded new stadiums they knew weren't going to be built and left town.  Ralph just demanded that they upgrade/repair the existing stadium that the county owned.  And he knew that Buffalo would never be able to compete with the big markets when it came to local revenue.

 

But beyond all the conjecture, it's a proven fact that he voted against every team's relocation.  Even though teams moving meant a lot more money in his pocket from relocation fees and bigger TV markets.  IOW, he never believed teams should move, including his own.

 

And sure the pastures haven't all been greener.  But if the team left Buffalo, it wasn't coming back no matter how bad the new market was.

 

 

Wrong........the stadiums I listed were all primarily baseball stadiums and not easily renovated for football purposes.    Some of them......like Municipal and Memorial......were also totally decrepit and rat infested and the way they were built there wasn't a renovation alternative.   I'm told the Murph in San Diego was also terrible when the Chargers moved but at least that wasn't a "rock pile" type early-mid 20th century baseball only structure.

 

Rich stadium was built for football.   It was designed with great sight lines for football and they were able to add premium seating that didn't leave the fan a mile from the action.    The next stadium needs a more open format so you can actually still see the field when you go to get something to eat etc...........but a new stadium in a reasonable time frame has always been a given.    At the time of those other moves.........that was not the case in those towns.

[Bill from NYC]

On 7/14/2021 at 2:32 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

The pastures haven't all been greener..........St. Louis was a much smaller market than LA and they ended up moving again,   Baltimore to Cleveland was no massive windfall,   and the Chargers are basically fan-less in LA.    Even the Oilers downsized markets significantly to move to Nashville.

Yes but that was a very smart move. People in these parts (and I imagine many other places) are moving to Tennessee every day. 

 

Moving to Tennessee was either a very smart or very lucky move. Their college football team is down the tubes for now but they too will be back. It does however look like that will take several years.

[BADOLBILZ]

18 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Yes but that was a very smart move. People in these parts (and I imagine many other places) are moving to Tennessee every day. 

 

Moving to Tennessee was either a very smart or very lucky move. Their college football team is down the tubes for now but they too will be back. It does however look like that will take several years.

 

Yeah Nashville is a good market but Houston is the 4th largest city in the country........and by a lot......over half a million more people than the next closest (Phoenix).    

 

For a market like Houston building a SB worthy stadium like Reliant was a given...........not sure if that will ever be the case in Nashville.    Last I heard they just wanted to renovate Nissan.   That probably won't be enough to get a SB there.

[Greybeard]

On 7/11/2021 at 8:34 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Then you could always point to embarrassingly cheap things he did...........like getting beaten by the ***** Montreal Alouettes of the CFL for #1 overall pick Tom Cousineau.  

               I have seen the supposed story of this posted at TBD more than once.  In my opinion it just doesn't ring true.  It fits the Ralph is cheap narrative, although I am not sure how much Ralph was involved in it, but I just don't think it happened that way.

 

             Oddly enough, long term, think of what that really meant to the Bills.

[Bobby Hooks]

Yeah, he did some things. But his legacy to his family took precedence over his legacy to Bills fans. At the end of the day his family is set for life, and we have a team in Buffalo. 
 

Did we have to suffer through some lean years? Sure, but he felt he had to take care of his family first. Taking your personal feelings out of it, you should at least be able to respect that choice. 
 

Football is still a game and Ralph owned a piece of it. I don’t begrudge him trying to maximize his gains while he could no matter how much it sucked at the time. I haven’t really looked back much but when I do I look at Ralph favorably. 
 

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Bobby Hooks

[Buffalo716]

On 7/13/2021 at 9:56 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The size of the city itself mattered a lot more in 1959 than 1990.

 

By 1990 the Bills were a regional franchise.

 

While the actual population of the city of Buffalo has declined slightly since 1959.........that doesn't take into account the sprawl or the fact that the population of southern Ontario has almost tripled etc..

 

Overall it's a good sized tv market with an established, rabid fanbase that puts a high priority on the product.

   

Don't even need to get into Canada 

 

Since the 50s..

 

What about the population of Amherst? Almost tripled 

 

Lancaster ? Doubled  

 

OP? Almost tripled 

 

Cheektowaga doubled since 1950 

 

Clearance has done basically a 5x 

 

WNY still has a total population of over 2 million people.. larger than some states

 

[ColoradoBills]

Without Ralph Wilson there would be no Buffalo Bills.  

Image of the stadium the night of Ralph's death.

 

[sherpa]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:56 PM, Buffalo716 said:

 

WNY still has a total population of over 2 million people.. larger than some states

 

 

None of those states have an NFL franchise.

DC is smaller, but they are a three state franchise and a much, much bigger market than Buffalo.

Though I haven't lived there since college, I love my hometown and the passion of it's fanbase, but it can't compete with a place like Miami for free agents, not in the demographic of NFL players.

I despise Miami, but it is what it is.