Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 Nothing startling here from Vic Carucci https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/training-camp-question-who-survives-roster-battle-on-the-interior-o-line/article_86b8cb18-de9d-11eb-befc-e33329232a3b.html Bottom line up front from Bobby Johnson, Won't Know 'til after Training Camp: Quote Johnson isn't sure what to make of the rest of the field yet. Noncontact practices during organized team activities and mandatory minicamp couldn't provide too much evidence as to who has what it takes to make the team. The coach is counting on training camp, which opens on July 27 at One Bills Drive, to provide more answers. But he does do a good job of framing the situation. Points out that we've got a lot of competition for 4 interior OL spots: Quote The Bills are expected to carry a total nine offensive linemen on their 53-man regular-season roster, with four being tackles and one being center Mitch Morse. Quote But the list of interior offensive linemen on the roster doesn't end with Feliciano, Ford and Boettger. Ryan Bates, Jamil Douglas, Forrest Lamp, rookie Jack Anderson, Jordan Devey and first-year player Steven Gonzalez will be vying for what probably is one reserve role between the tackles. That should make for some intense competition on the interior offensive line. Quotes from Bobby Johnson: Quote "We've got three guys in the guard spot that have played a lot of meaningful football for us in the interior over the course of the last two years," Johnson said of Feliciano, Ford and Boettger. "We've got another guy (Bates) that earned the right to compete because every time his number's been called, he's gone out there and he's been very productive in actual NFL football games. "Ike Boettger played some really valuable football for us last year, and he's continued to develop and blossom into a good NFL interior lineman. Ike has got the DNA that we want. He's a tough guy, mentally and physically. He's a smart guy, he's a dependable guy. He's going to do everything he can to help the team win. "And then you've got a guy like Ryan Bates. He played some games for us at center. He played guard, he played tackle. He's developed into a guy that has gained the trust of the staff because once again, he's tough, physically and mentally. He's smart, he's dependable. I'm gonna let him compete and I would trust the guy 100% on game day to play any spot we asked him to play." Carucci views Feliciano as a "lock" on the right side: Quote The Buffalo Bills have three players with whom they would be comfortable being starters at guard. One, Jon Feliciano, is a presumed lock on the right side, courtesy of the three-year, $14.4 million contract the Bills gave him in March to keep him off the open market. Another, Cody Ford, figures to have at least somewhat of an inside track on the left side by virtue of being a second-round draft pick in 2019. A third strong guard candidate is Ike Boettger, who has made a favorable impression on his coaches with his appearance in 12 games last season, including a career-high seven starts. I'm a little less certain. While it's true Feliciano has a 3 year, $14.4M contract, only $4.4M is guaranteed. He's got a cap hit this year of $3.2M and $1.5M dead cap if cut after this season ($0.75M after June 1). Per Spotrac that slots him in as the #26 highest-paid guard by cap hit this year, which is not "chopped liver" but it's hardly "locked in" money on a team that paid Trent Murphy $7M to sit on the bench last season. IMHO he's being paid for his versatility, that he can play both sides and center capably. But as Carrucci notes (citing PFF), his pass protection was not stellar last season and it's been analyzed by Cover1 and others that at times his run blocking was not what one would like either. I do think the Bills are going to give Cody Ford every chance to succeed during the season, but I'm sure they have questions about him due to his injury history. Beane pointing out that he's played more games injured than healthy is a double-edged sword: on the one hand, he gets a bit of a pass for being a "good soldier" and gritting it out; on the other hand, at the end of the day if he can't stay healthy enough to play at the hoped-for high level, the Bills need to find another way to raise the level of interior OL play. I'm also less certain than Carucci that the Bills regard Dawkins, Williams, and both rookies as "locks" at OT. As Johnson notes, Bates played tackle last year. While not stellar, he played well enough that it took the announcers a while to figure out both OTs were backups. It wouldn't astound me if we wind up going with Dawkins, Williams, Brown, and Bates as the tackles while Doyle develops a mysterious thumb injury that will place him on IR, especially since Bates can also function at C and G. That would give the Bills flexibility to keep, say, Feliciano, Ford, Boettger, and (winner of Training Camp competition) to hedge their bets, just in case injury recovery doesn't return Mongo and Ford to the "form" the Bills want to see. Thoughts? 8 1 5
Kwai San Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 Good analysis Hap.....certainly looks to be an interesting training camp for sure. Thanks for the write up and time it took to pull all that together. 3
Bangarang Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 Nothing earth shattering here. Should be a solid competition for the two guard spots, mainly at LG. Keep an eye on Lamp. He was a really talented guard prospect coming out of the draft. Had some issues with injuries with the Chargers and a change of scheme/scenery might be what he needs. 2 2
RoyBatty is alive Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) I think this is make of break season for Cody Ford, if he is not a stud this year we thought he could have been when drafted, i dont think he ever will be, always fighting to stay on the team. I assume the Ford at tackle experiment is over. Keep Bates and Feliciano for versatility if nothing else. Mitch Morse at center is a real concern, he is one concussion away from retirement. And I like rookie Jack Anderson, i think he could be an NFL starting guard, maybe we can hide him on the PS for a year if he works out. Edited July 8, 2021 by RoyBatty is alive 3 1
ctk232 Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: [...] It wouldn't astound me if we wind up going with Dawkins, Williams, Brown, and Bates as the tackles while Doyle develops a mysterious thumb injury that will place him on IR, especially since Bates can also function at C and G. Couldn't agree more with this take. I do think the Bills view at least Dawkins/Williams as starter locks, and are high enough on Spencer Brown to likely have him on the 53 as a rookie. To me, Bates makes the 53 for two reasons here - as you keenly point out - one is his utility OL play and proficiency, and a very close two is his ability to fill in as a Center specifically. Morse has been a question mark regarding his long term capability beyond this next season, and we saw Feliciano's ability to fill in here as well from last season. What I would like to see from the staff is if/when Morse goes down again, what would a Bates (C)/Feliciano (RG) look like instead of a Feliciano (C)/Boettger (RG, assuming Ford is healthy). Feliciano, while serviceable at Center, did leave a gap in the Guard position last year that affected our run game and overall OL production (beyond just the transition to zone blocking versus power man blocking concepts in the run game). I like Boettger's story as much as the next guy, but I can't buy any argument regarding his talent/skills as irreplaceable, or better than the potential utility of keeping Feliciano at LG and having Bates fill in at C. The other possibilities here being Lamp and Anderson coming in and having a phenomenal camp, pushing out either/both of Boettger and Bates - though history has shown the staff to typically favor going with the established hand. As for Doyle I could see IR as well, or even PS depending on his camp and how well they like him over others. But I would be surprised to see him make the roster out of camp. Assuming we do keep 9: Dawkins/Ford (Boettger, Lamp)/Morse/Feliciano/Williams (Brown, Bates) - I think Anderson and Doyle see the IR/PS, and Lamp's spot may be taken by Douglas or Anderson instead, but I'd say Lamp if I had to choose. Edited July 8, 2021 by ctk232
The_Ripster Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: "while Doyle develops a mysterious thumb injury that will place him on IR" The dreaded mysterious thumb injury! Will be interesting to see who earns this one after training camp, might be worth noting that Doyle plays LT and Brown plays RT/RB for the Carolina Panthers. Edited July 8, 2021 by The_Ripster 1
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Nothing startling here from Vic Carucci https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/training-camp-question-who-survives-roster-battle-on-the-interior-o-line/article_86b8cb18-de9d-11eb-befc-e33329232a3b.html Bottom line up front from Bobby Johnson, Won't Know 'til after Training Camp: But he does do a good job of framing the situation. Points out that we've got a lot of competition for 4 interior OL spots: Quotes from Bobby Johnson: Carucci views Feliciano as a "lock" on the right side: I'm a little less certain. While it's true Feliciano has a 3 year, $14.4M contract, only $4.4M is guaranteed. He's got a cap hit this year of $3.2M and $1.5M dead cap if cut after this season ($0.75M after June 1). Per Spotrac that slots him in as the #26 highest-paid guard by cap hit this year, which is not "chopped liver" but it's hardly "locked in" money on a team that paid Trent Murphy $7M to sit on the bench last season. IMHO he's being paid for his versatility, that he can play both sides and center capably. But as Carrucci notes (citing PFF), his pass protection was not stellar last season and it's been analyzed by Cover1 and others that at times his run blocking was not what one would like either. I do think the Bills are going to give Cody Ford every chance to succeed during the season, but I'm sure they have questions about him due to his injury history. Beane pointing out that he's played more games injured than healthy is a double-edged sword: on the one hand, he gets a bit of a pass for being a "good soldier" and gritting it out; on the other hand, at the end of the day if he can't stay healthy enough to play at the hoped-for high level, the Bills need to find another way to raise the level of interior OL play. I'm also less certain than Carucci that the Bills regard Dawkins, Williams, and both rookies as "locks" at OT. As Johnson notes, Bates played tackle last year. While not stellar, he played well enough that it took the announcers a while to figure out both OTs were backups. It wouldn't astound me if we wind up going with Dawkins, Williams, Brown, and Bates as the tackles while Doyle develops a mysterious thumb injury that will place him on IR, especially since Bates can also function at C and G. That would give the Bills flexibility to keep, say, Feliciano, Ford, Boettger, and (winner of Training Camp competition) to hedge their bets, just in case injury recovery doesn't return Mongo and Ford to the "form" the Bills want to see. Thoughts? I think one of the rookies (my bet is on one of the tackles) will end up slipping on a banana peel or something and spend the year on IR so that will open up one more spot for someone else. Do agree that there may be a surprising cut someplace on the line. Ford also has battles through being jerked around in 2 years. How many 2nd year players can say they've started multiply NFL games and three different positions on the line? Can't believe that's helped him all that much.
ghostwriter Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 I agree that Feliciano is a lock at RG. I like Morse as well, he gives Josh Allen some nice and clean pockets to step into, but injuries are a concern. I do think if we ran different run blocking schemes, Morse would prove to be above solid here as well. Ford I have no hope for. I like Bates and Boettger better. 🤷♂️ 1
BubbaT Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 Time for some end of training camp trades for future picks. I would not be at all surprised if the Bills fielded calls as cut down day approached.
Saxum Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 The "slipping on a banana peel" or "mysterious thumb injury" needs to be done with cooperation of player and player's agent otherwise player can take that designation to NFL and/or ask for injury settlement. If there is so much competition in camp some players may decide they would rather try elsewhere especially with agent having whispers in his ear from other teams.
GETTOTHE50 Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 I hope Ford is part of the solution to making the run game respectable this year. 1
appoo Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, njbuff said: Could Morse be one of those "shocking" cuts? If by "shocking" you mean "will never happen" then yes I'd be stunned if Ford, Morse, and Feliciano weren't your IOL. With Bates overtaking Boettger as your top backup. 1
Don Otreply Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 Concerning Feliciano, that torn peck is a likely cause of his moments of less than stellar performance, that injury takes a long time to get right from as everyone knows, outside of that piece of obviousness, Beane has got the competition for pretty much all the trench positions dialed up, and ya gotta like that. Go Bills!!! 1
DCofNC Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 Well it sounds like Beane is coming out of camp with 9 OL and 3 new draft picks in 2022. 3
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2021 Author Posted July 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Don Otreply said: Concerning Feliciano, that torn peck is a likely cause of his moments of less than stellar performance, that injury takes a long time to get right from as everyone knows, outside of that piece of obviousness, Beane has got the competition for pretty much all the trench positions dialed up, and ya gotta like that. Go Bills!!! Perhaps? At times, it appeared to me that where Feliciano was getting beaten was with his feet. Of course, if he was being medicated for pain, that could slow down his reaction time I guess - just like Cody Ford went out with a knee injury but it appeared at times he wasn't getting his arm up to the right position to block. I will hope for the best, Jon did say that he didn't feel "right" until this off season 2
ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, njbuff said: Could Morse be one of those "shocking" cuts? Not by passing on Creed Humphrey for Boogie Basham. I'm still angry about that. Worse yet he went to KC.... Then doubling down on two project OT? IOL needed help more. This is one of my favorite topics in this offseason. I went back and watched a load of games from last year. For the regular season the O-Line was really terrific in most games and most combos in pass protection. Some games like against New England the run game looked really good. I'm not sold on Singletary or Moss, but they got chunk plays vs New England and in other games. I'm not sure why people are down on Mongo on this board. Against playoff competition most of our line looked bad. Williams, Morse and Feliciano got beat. Rewatch KC2 from last year, it's not just Mongo. I wanted Buffalo to go heavy on IOL and many opportunities presented themselves, but Buffalo went DE, DE, OT, OT.... The early season switch to zone blocking hurt the run game and alienated Spain, and he was gone. Not sure that was a great idea. All of that said I think the starting line up looks like Dawkins/ Lamp/ Morse/ Feliciano/ Williams. Backups Bates/ Boettger/ Brown and ?. Lamp is my dark horse Buffalo Bill this year. I think he takes a starting OG spot and does not give it up. I am no Cody Ford fan he is a stiff and can't stay healthy. Anderson is a wild card. He could be another Teller. Late round G with nasty who develops an NFL game in 1-2 years, that is the hope. Will be interesting, but I have a hard time thinking 2 rookie OL will make the 53. Edited July 9, 2021 by ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin 3 1
Bills Fan of St Augustine Posted July 9, 2021 Posted July 9, 2021 Still feel like this is our Achilles heel. Wish we would bring in some talent for the inside. Love Feliciano, but he is a liability when passing. Always has been. The rest can't run block. Morse is one head bang away from retirement. Ford is looking like a possible bust (needs to step up in a big way). Maybe we need to change our run blocking scheme/approach? Short of Barry Sanders, no one can guarantee positive yardage with this group. It's not the RBs! Leaves us one dimensional again, but I guess it is a good dimension! Hoping the rooks can step up, but.... Really wish we kept Teller.... 1
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