sherpa Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: If the teens aren't going to hotels anyway, leave their bags on the plane, and fly the bags back in the am? This is an example of why people's views on message boards, when commenting on things they are unfamiliar with, should be completely disregarded, and I mean no personal offense. Doing what you suggest would result in an airline losing its operating certificate. In plain English, instantaneous corporate suicide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 This is our future, everybody 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 2 hours ago, sherpa said: This is an example of why people's views on message boards, when commenting on things they are unfamiliar with, should be completely disregarded, and I mean no personal offense. Doing what you suggest would result in an airline losing its operating certificate. In plain English, instantaneous corporate suicide. I'd just like to point out that your highlighted sentences provide the desired information. I have had it happen to friends of mine who were involuntarily bumped ("denied carriage") from a plane, that their luggage went to the destination without them. Apparently that is not "instantaneous corporate suicide". I'm pretty sure I've also read stories of passengers who were removed for what the airline considered "required by safety, security, or health reasons, or due to the passenger’s unlawful behavior" where they were left baggageless because their baggage didn't come off the flight, and those airlines are still flying. So apparently that was not "instantaneous corporate suicide" either. There must be some very fine lines in the denial of carriage rules, or else the operating certificate is a bit harder to lose than you suggest. I would also bet that what sound like HS or college kids going off to party, were not likely paying extra for checked luggage and had what they needed in carry-on bags. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 41 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'd just like to point out that your highlighted sentences provide the desired information. I have had it happen to friends of mine who were involuntarily bumped ("denied carriage") from a plane, that their luggage went to the destination without them. Apparently that is not "instantaneous corporate suicide". I'm pretty sure I've also read stories of passengers who were removed for what the airline considered "required by safety, security, or health reasons, or due to the passenger’s unlawful behavior" where they were left baggageless because their baggage didn't come off the flight, and those airlines are still flying. So apparently that was not "instantaneous corporate suicide" either. There must be some very fine lines in the denial of carriage rules, or else the operating certificate is a bit harder to lose than you suggest. I would also bet that what sound like HS or college kids going off to party, were not likely paying extra for checked luggage and had what they needed in carry-on bags. And I would like to point out that you don't know the regulations or protocols. What I "suggest" is what I know, and breaking those rules is corporate suicide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 ***** corporate suicide. Airlines suck balls, and pandering to the bad passengers has created a downward spiral for the industry. This will just embolden people to act enmass and allow the airlines to hide behind rules, which they did. One can always hide behind safety and security and fail to do the honorable thing. They sure as ***** profited from the delay... They didn't take a loss no matter what they tell you about rules and regs. Kudos, they played it right. Did they compensate the others? Lose money on deal and make the abiding passengers whole. I would hope. Give them a free round trip ticket somewhere else? Put them up in a hotel, take them to breakfast, etc... 😆 Yeah, in 2021 @ the "bus station of the sky." LoL... Maybe we need to travel less. 😏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Wrong on so many levels. Not going to touch the above, with the exception of pointing out that they absolutely do not profit from a delay. Pure nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Maybe profit was extreme. My bad... But there's gotta be mechanisms to lesson their loss. YET they mitigate their loses at the expense of the customers. Do the honorable thing. Yet, they blame the rules and stick it to the good ones. The problems get deeper. Congratulations, the company survives another day by falling in line with bad behavior and punishing everyone. Who's gonna change that bad behavior? The individual or corporate. Keep the kicked off one's bags on the plane... Fly it to the destination. Maybe a bit extreme, seize anything of value. 😆... Fly all 2 rule abiding passengers if needed, treat them like queens and kings for a day... Shower them with rewards. You get more flies with honey than vinegar. I got no problem with what they did, just make it up to the rule abiding patrons. After all, they're just following the rules too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) By simply reading the media reports of this, you have absolutely no idea what accommodations the inconvenienced legally compliant passengers were provided, either by hotel and meal vouchers and other probable "awards" to lesson the inconvenience. They don't get published unless the passenger reveals them. And again, keeping a passenger's bags onboard who has been taken off a flight for non compliance with regulations the fed has imposed is an idiotic, illegal and potentially criminal action. I guarantee you that if I did that intentionally the FAA would have been after my license as soon as they found out. Same thing with other cargo issues the carrier agrees to abide by in compliance with FAA and DEA directives. It can get complicated, and things in the cargo compartment are a really serious issue. There are situations where it is permissible, and I'm not going to go into them anymore than I'm going to discuss other issues that frequently arise that have years of experienced professional and legal guidance governing those issues and informing those protocols. Medical diverts would be an example. Forming and expressing an opinion rife with hostility regarding a situation one knows very little about is a bad habit. Edited July 8, 2021 by sherpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Probably should have added this on the end of my previous post, but doing what has been suggested by people who don't know the situation may not have been possible. I'm not interested enough to find out, but it is somewhat likely that these message board suggestions were not an option at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 6 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said: ***** corporate suicide. Airlines suck balls, and pandering to the bad passengers has created a downward spiral for the industry. This will just embolden people to act enmass and allow the airlines to hide behind rules, which they did. One can always hide behind safety and security and fail to do the honorable thing. They sure as ***** profited from the delay... They didn't take a loss no matter what they tell you about rules and regs. Kudos, they played it right. Did they compensate the others? Lose money on deal and make the abiding passengers whole. I would hope. Give them a free round trip ticket somewhere else? Put them up in a hotel, take them to breakfast, etc... 😆 Yeah, in 2021 @ the "bus station of the sky." LoL... Maybe we need to travel less. 😏 I defer to folks with expertise on these issues for a variety of reasons. My commentary comes as the guy sitting in row 22, seat B, sitting next to the chubster who ordered the tuna sub from Subway to eat on the hot shot from Syracuse to Punta Gorda as I leave the seasonal affectation disorder and -5 wind chills in the rear view. I love the convenience of airline travel, have flown often and 95% of the time without incident. Several years ago, we were rerouted from Cancun to Ft Lauderdale due to weather conditions at LaGuardia. We landed, sat on the ground for about 5 hours and were not allowed to deplane as we were not cleared through customs (or whatever they call that). It was frustrating, of course, made worse when some big cat a few rows back started acting up. Anxiety, trouble in his home life, on his way to a funeral, general discomfort or whatever the cause I cannot say. He was loud, boisterous, on a cell phone with Jet Blue corporate, demanding to get off the plane. This created a ruckus as other passengers got upset, words exchanged and I began moving my three young children around in case things got really ugly. Eventually, a fit looking young man with a sidearm and in a uniform boarded the plane, strode back casually, hand on his firearm and asked directly if the guy had a problem. When he demanded to get off the plane, the officer said “It’s not going to happen the way you think, I need you to calm down for everybody’s sake.”. That solved the problem. So, it sucked—the entire process. I’d have gotten off the plane, definitely didn’t understand whatever keep us on the plane in the moment at the time, but ultimately was glad things didn’t get You Tube ugly. The airline handled it, just as they did in this scenario. They handled a problem they didn’t create, had no control over, on a plane where 96% of the stakeholders were frustrated but managed to hold their &$#@ together and where one guy struggled to do so and a few others engaged. The attendants did a good job generally, though I seem to recall one adopted a DMV style approach which did not help. Unfortunately for the good folks in this case, the handling involved canceling the flight. That’s really the definition of handling it, and it certainly sucked for many. I’m all for tossing the dbags that created the mess in the gulag, civil penalties, or even mandatory free-for-all sky dives for the 30 with 29 functioning parachutes. What @sherpa has laid out seems quite logical to me, and takes into account all the dominos that tend to fall when humble folk simply wonder why the &$#@ they didn’t just kick the dbags off and get moving. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg S Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Their is a very easy solution when dealing with bad passengers on a plane. Just follow Arnold's example 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: I defer to folks with expertise on these issues for a variety of reasons. My commentary comes as the guy sitting in row 22, seat B, sitting next to the chubster who ordered the tuna sub from Subway to eat on the hot shot from Syracuse to Punta Gorda as I leave the seasonal affectation disorder and -5 wind chills in the rear view. I love the convenience of airline travel, have flown often and 95% of the time without incident. Several years ago, we were rerouted from Cancun to Ft Lauderdale due to weather conditions at LaGuardia. We landed, sat on the ground for about 5 hours and were not allowed to deplane as we were not cleared through customs (or whatever they call that). It was frustrating, of course, made worse when some big cat a few rows back started acting up. Anxiety, trouble in his home life, on his way to a funeral, general discomfort or whatever the cause I cannot say. He was loud, boisterous, on a cell phone with Jet Blue corporate, demanding to get off the plane. This created a ruckus as other passengers got upset, words exchanged and I began moving my three young children around in case things got really ugly. Eventually, a fit looking young man with a sidearm and in a uniform boarded the plane, strode back casually, hand on his firearm and asked directly if the guy had a problem. When he demanded to get off the plane, the officer said “It’s not going to happen the way you think, I need you to calm down for everybody’s sake.”. That solved the problem. So, it sucked—the entire process. I’d have gotten off the plane, definitely didn’t understand whatever keep us on the plane in the moment at the time, but ultimately was glad things didn’t get You Tube ugly. The airline handled it, just as they did in this scenario. They handled a problem they didn’t create, had no control over, on a plane where 96% of the stakeholders were frustrated but managed to hold their &$#@ together and where one guy struggled to do so and a few others engaged. The attendants did a good job generally, though I seem to recall one adopted a DMV style approach which did not help. Unfortunately for the good folks in this case, the handling involved canceling the flight. That’s really the definition of handling it, and it certainly sucked for many. I’m all for tossing the dbags that created the mess in the gulag, civil penalties, or even mandatory free-for-all sky dives for the 30 with 29 functioning parachutes. What @sherpa has laid out seems quite logical to me, and takes into account all the dominos that tend to fall when humble folk simply wonder why the &$#@ they didn’t just kick the dbags off and get moving. Not saying you have to act up on the spot. Time and place for everything. What would have happen had they'd told you that you had to park it moving your children around? Did they at least treat you like a king for a day afterwards? 😆 Or kick you to curb with @sherpa's butt wash and broken aviator glasses? 😉😜 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Greg S said: Their is a very easy solution when dealing with bad passengers on a plane. Just follow Arnold's example Please don't boser my friend. Heez dead tiret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: I defer to folks with expertise on these issues for a variety of reasons. An odd habit if you consider various posts in this thread. By the way, for the individual who claimed that these folks were "hiding behind the rules," that is a grossly absurd conclusion. The "rules" happen to be the law and the penalties are massive. If breaking those rules intentionally, it can lead to certificate action and criminal charges. Further, there is no hiding. Data link messages are sent and an undeniable electronic track is created on all these things. One example. A few years ago Congress passed what was called the "Passenger Bill of Rights." It was passed to penalize carriers for extended delays without deplaning. I was a 777 captain. I once computed that if I ever broke that time limit, with all the passengers we carried, if they got the max amount, it would have been far cheaper to simply blow all the slides and evacuate the airplane. Know what the penalty is for allowing an intoxicated passenger on the airplane? $20,000. Coincidentally, the Mrs. and I have to enter that hellish madness known as US civil aviation this afternoon to visit our daughter and her husband. I hope I make it. Edited July 8, 2021 by sherpa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 1 hour ago, sherpa said: An odd habit if you consider various posts in this thread. By the way, for the individual who claimed that these folks were "hiding behind the rules," that is a grossly absurd conclusion. The "rules" happen to be the law and the penalties are massive. If breaking those rules intentionally, it can lead to certificate action and criminal charges. Further, there is no hiding. Data link messages are sent and an undeniable electronic track is created on all these things. One example. A few years ago Congress passed what was called the "Passenger Bill of Rights." It was passed to penalize carriers for extended delays without deplaning. I was a 777 captain. I once computed that if I ever broke that time limit, with all the passengers we carried, if they got the max amount, it would have been far cheaper to simply blow all the slides and evacuate the airplane. Know what the penalty is for allowing an intoxicated passenger on the airplane? $20,000. Coincidentally, the Mrs. and I have to enter that hellish madness known as US civil aviation this afternoon to visit our daughter and her husband. I hope I make it. Odd habits and I are old friends. I trust my instincts on this sort of thing, weeding out wannabes and ne'erdowells. Admittedly, some folks pretend to be something they are not, so I could miss a time or two. Overall, it seems to work for me. Best of luck with the trip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted July 8, 2021 Author Share Posted July 8, 2021 2 hours ago, sherpa said: One example. A few years ago Congress passed what was called the "Passenger Bill of Rights." It was passed to penalize carriers for extended delays without deplaning. I was a 777 captain. I once computed that if I ever broke that time limit, with all the passengers we carried, if they got the max amount, it would have been far cheaper to simply blow all the slides and evacuate the airplane. Story time. Back in the fall of 2007 the ex and I were on a flight to China with a tour group. JFK-Beijing, direct flight, no stops on Air China. 3pm was our listed departure time. Everything seems to be going smoothly, we get in line for take off. I have a window seat and I happened to notice we were getting out of line. Sure enough, captain announces there's a mechanical issue, so they take us back to a gate, but don't let us off while they fix it. Two hours later, we leave the gate, get back in line. Few minutes later, I see us getting back out of line. Captain announces, they found another issue. But this time we don't go to a gate, they take us somewhere on the tarmac. It was then people started wondering about the PBOR. Turns out it was being discussed, but not yet official. So we were stuck on board as long as they wanted to keep us there. Two hours later, plane is fixed again. Except, because the crew gave us food and drinks, we now had to wait for catering to come and replenish the plane. So another two hour wait, before we could leave. Finally at 9pm, we take off for our 14 hour flight. It's the only time I've been on a plane where the passengers clapped on take off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Honestly... Maybe it's just me. I'd just let a drone fly me. Pay the tech kid $13 bucks an hour and give him a joystick. I am still taking a bigger chance driving my sorry azz to the airport. I'd take my chances with a $26 ticket and a hermetically sealed transport pod separating me from all the other poor slobs out there. 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) Apparently there was a delay with the plane, during which some of the kids allegedly became unruly. They brought in a second plane but the kids weren't allowed to board it. They were able to fly the next day, though. So in effect they were kicked-off that flight and the other passengers were allowed to fly. https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/teens-defied-mask-rules-delayed-190830065.html Edited July 9, 2021 by Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaoulDuke79 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Flying American Airlines next week with my kids who have never flown before. Can't wait for the festivities.....what's the fine for allowing a drunk person to board a plane again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 18 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said: Flying American Airlines next week with my kids who have never flown before. Can't wait for the festivities.....what's the fine for allowing a drunk person to board a plane again? If it keeps them quiet, there's no fine for giving those kids as much vodka and Cherry Coke as they can handle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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