ChiGoose Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said: Just to be clear-you mean if a person was told by their boss to remove a book and they decided to keep it in the media center? I would fire them. Where did you hear it was felony? That is inaccurate, you will be fired unless it is so bad that it is truly indefensible. I think reprimanding or firing them would be appropriate. And I think the process you described earlier where the schools make the list of books available to the public for comment and takes action based on expertise and community feedback is exactly how it should work. But what we are talking about here is the state government making it a crime to make a book available if it doesn’t comply with what the state believes is appropriate (and the standards are fairly vague). So yes, obviously there shouldn’t be porn in school libraries. And there’s always going to be a discussion of at which age certain topics are appropriate for kids. And there will be gray areas that will be really tough with some school deciding one thing and others deciding else wise. But those should be community discussions, not mandates from the Capitol under penalty of prosecution. Book ban underway as teachers fear prosecution in Florida “According to Florida’s Department of Education, the selection of library materials, which includes classroom libraries, must be “free of pornography and material prohibited under state statute, suited to student needs and their ability to comprehend the material presented, appropriate for the grade level and age group for which the materials are used and made available. Violations can result in a third-degree felony.” Edited March 25, 2023 by ChiGoose 1
Orlando Buffalo Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 8 hours ago, ChiGoose said: I think reprimanding or firing them would be appropriate. And I think the process you described earlier where the schools make the list of books available to the public for comment and takes action based on expertise and community feedback is exactly how it should work. But what we are talking about here is the state government making it a crime to make a book available if it doesn’t comply with what the state believes is appropriate (and the standards are fairly vague). So yes, obviously there shouldn’t be porn in school libraries. And there’s always going to be a discussion of at which age certain topics are appropriate for kids. And there will be gray areas that will be really tough with some school deciding one thing and others deciding else wise. But those should be community discussions, not mandates from the Capitol under penalty of prosecution. Book ban underway as teachers fear prosecution in Florida “According to Florida’s Department of Education, the selection of library materials, which includes classroom libraries, must be “free of pornography and material prohibited under state statute, suited to student needs and their ability to comprehend the material presented, appropriate for the grade level and age group for which the materials are used and made available. Violations can result in a third-degree felony.” We basically agree on the overall format and now we are have a major difference on penalty, so I ask you what the proper punishment is for someone who intentionally gives "this book is gay" to a bunch of 5th graders, which tells kids how to meet adults online without parent permission? That was the one of the occurrences that got this whole bill started. Or how about giving them Mein Kumpf without parental awareness? The felony charge will only be use in extreme cases but if it is not on the books the threat is not there, you can't create the law after the fact.
ChiGoose Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 36 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said: We basically agree on the overall format and now we are have a major difference on penalty, so I ask you what the proper punishment is for someone who intentionally gives "this book is gay" to a bunch of 5th graders, which tells kids how to meet adults online without parent permission? That was the one of the occurrences that got this whole bill started. Or how about giving them Mein Kumpf without parental awareness? The felony charge will only be use in extreme cases but if it is not on the books the threat is not there, you can't create the law after the fact. A quick search shows that the recommended age for This Book is Gay is 14-17. So if someone is having kids younger than that read it, I would say discipline should range from a verbal warning all the way to being fired depending on the circumstances. But that should be determined by the school and in the context of that specific situation. Not the state, and it shouldn’t be an actual crime. Do you think that it is proper to charge someone with a felony for putting And Tango Makes Three in the school library?
SoCal Deek Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 14 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: A quick search shows that the recommended age for This Book is Gay is 14-17. So if someone is having kids younger than that read it, I would say discipline should range from a verbal warning all the way to being fired depending on the circumstances. But that should be determined by the school and in the context of that specific situation. Not the state, and it shouldn’t be an actual crime. Do you think that it is proper to charge someone with a felony for putting And Tango Makes Three in the school library? You clearly need to spend some time in your local school. Or maybe just an afternoon in the administration or counseling office. The things they deal with today are way more out there than running in the hallway or chewing gum in class.
Tommy Callahan Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 16 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said: Serious question: have those people defending the firing of the principal ever taken their kids to a museum? Apparently not. Because they gonna see a little artistic nudity there Serious question. You think we should again run with some story told by a fired employee , even after all these years of similar staries devoid of facts being just divisive partisan lies? Or just keep blindly believing. 1
ChiGoose Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 29 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: You clearly need to spend some time in your local school. Or maybe just an afternoon in the administration or counseling office. The things they deal with today are way more out there than running in the hallway or chewing gum in class. Please point to where I said that the worst things schools have to deal with is running in the hallway or chewing gum. I’ll wait 1
Doc Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 10 hours ago, Big Blitz said: Hahahahahahahahaha Meanwhile every week is a bad week for Joke... 1
Orlando Buffalo Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 1 hour ago, ChiGoose said: A quick search shows that the recommended age for This Book is Gay is 14-17. So if someone is having kids younger than that read it, I would say discipline should range from a verbal warning all the way to being fired depending on the circumstances. But that should be determined by the school and in the context of that specific situation. Not the state, and it shouldn’t be an actual crime. Do you think that it is proper to charge someone with a felony for putting And Tango Makes Three in the school library? You are describing what the law in Florida does, there is a reason you have not read any headlines of an arrest. The arrested person would have to go far beyond a reasonable interpretation for "age appropriate". I will end with this article which is my county and will add one correction to it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-school-board-removes-parent-from-meeting-for-reading-out-of-sexually-explicit-book-from-hs-library.amp The middle school my daughter goes to had a teacher who had this book available on her shelf at the beginning of this year. I know this teacher and they came from teaching high school and this book was a gift from a parent, teacher simply had to remove book and was warned to be more aware of books on her shelf. Without this law that book would still be available to middle schoolers, which I think we can agree is not appropriate without parental consent.
Doc Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 29 minutes ago, B-Man said: The Press Are Really Angry at Ron DeSantis Again, and the Reason Is Perfect Ron DeSantis has pioneered a new strategy in dealing with the press. Namely, he largely ignores them. For years, outlets like CNN and The New York Times have relied on access to politicians they despise and constantly smear. And for years, Republicans have played along, believing they need the publicity in order to communicate with the American public. Even Donald Trump, famously adversarial with the press, has continued to give interviews to people like Maggie Haberman and Bob Woodward. DeSantis has chosen another path, not even bothering to give his political enemies, which the press obviously are, the free material. That’s led to consternation, and the press isn’t having any success taking the backdoor either. According to a new report, journalists are growing frustrated with DeSantis because those around him don’t leak damaging information to them. So according to the press, DeSantis is bad because his team is too disciplined and competent, choosing not to leak information that could undermine the job they are trying to do. Talk about a sense of entitlement, and one that was earned over years of Republican politicians being surrounded by people who give reporters whatever they want. https://redstate.com/bonchie/2023/03/24/the-press-are-really-angry-at-ron-desantis-again-and-the-reason-is-perfect-n721085 No, according to the press he's bad because he's a Repub. This just irks them because they want leaks. But they'll likely go to the old well of "anonymous sources."
ChiGoose Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 40 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said: You are describing what the law in Florida does, there is a reason you have not read any headlines of an arrest. The arrested person would have to go far beyond a reasonable interpretation for "age appropriate". I will end with this article which is my county and will add one correction to it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-school-board-removes-parent-from-meeting-for-reading-out-of-sexually-explicit-book-from-hs-library.amp The middle school my daughter goes to had a teacher who had this book available on her shelf at the beginning of this year. I know this teacher and they came from teaching high school and this book was a gift from a parent, teacher simply had to remove book and was warned to be more aware of books on her shelf. Without this law that book would still be available to middle schoolers, which I think we can agree is not appropriate without parental consent. So it is your contention that it is ok to have a law that makes it a crime for a school to have a book that doesn’t conform to the government’s dictate so long as the law isn’t enforced? Earlier, you mentioned that schools would remove books after consultation with the community. And now you’re stating they are powerless to do so without this law? I’m honestly trying to understand your position here.
Orlando Buffalo Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 20 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: So it is your contention that it is ok to have a law that makes it a crime for a school to have a book that doesn’t conform to the government’s dictate so long as the law isn’t enforced? Earlier, you mentioned that schools would remove books after consultation with the community. And now you’re stating they are powerless to do so without this law? I’m honestly trying to understand your position here. Where is the law not being enforced? The law states the books must be removed, and the book was removed. The schools must put out a list of books being brought into the school media center, and they are making the list public. Not sure how it is confusing, unless you are pretending that all teachers would never be inappropriate with a student. The district was not powerless but they are now compelled to make sure the books are proper.
Roundybout Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 https://www.newsweek.com/florida-principal-forced-resign-showing-students-michelangelo-statue-1789976 Quote Carrasquilla said that the school is obligated by law to teach lessons on the Renaissance to sixth graders as part of the annual curriculum. But three parents complained that their children felt uncomfortable with the lesson, which included a section on David, a marble statue of a nude male that represents youthful beauty as well as the Italian city of Florence. It is considered one of Michelangelo's masterpieces as well as one of the Renaissance's greatest sculptures. Schoolboard chair Bishop is a lobbyist who has expressed his support for DeSantis' approach to Florida's K-12 education, according to a story in The Independent, a British online newspaper. "We agree with everything the governor is doing in the educational arena. We support him because he's right," Bishop said, according to the Independent's story. "The whole woke indoctrination going on about pronouns and drag queens isn't appropriate in school." "Parental rights are supreme, and that means protecting the interests of all parents, whether it's one, 10, 20 or 50," Bishop said, according to the Democrat. He would not tell the newspaper why he gave Carrasquilla the ultimatum, based on advice from the school's legal team. Bishop is a lobbyist who has expressed his support for DeSantis' approach to Florida's K-12 education, according to a story in The Independent, a British online newspaper. Gonna keep hammering this until the fine GOP posters here explain how this is a rational decision made by adults 1
Orlando Buffalo Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 22 minutes ago, Roundybout said: https://www.newsweek.com/florida-principal-forced-resign-showing-students-michelangelo-statue-1789976 Gonna keep hammering this until the fine GOP posters here explain how this is a rational decision made by adults This was the final straw in a string of problems for this school. It has seen terrible performance academically lately and they wanted her gone and found an excuse. If this was truly the only reason I would agree it is ridiculous but the school is performing poorly and she gave them an excuse. I will also point out this is a charter school so the rules are different. https://www.schooldigger.com/go/FL/schools/0111008746/school.aspx
ChiGoose Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Orlando Tim said: Where is the law not being enforced? The law states the books must be removed, and the book was removed. The schools must put out a list of books being brought into the school media center, and they are making the list public. Not sure how it is confusing, unless you are pretending that all teachers would never be inappropriate with a student. The district was not powerless but they are now compelled to make sure the books are proper. “Proper” as decided by the government under potential penalty of a felony charge. Would you be ok with some ultra liberal government deciding what is proper and having the ability to charge school employees with a felony if they do not adhere to the most liberal beliefs of what is proper? Personally, I don’t think the state should be involved, and I certainly don’t think there should even be the possibility of a criminal charge for not adhering to the government’s ideas of what books are “proper.”
Orlando Buffalo Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 1 hour ago, ChiGoose said: “Proper” as decided by the government under potential penalty of a felony charge. Would you be ok with some ultra liberal government deciding what is proper and having the ability to charge school employees with a felony if they do not adhere to the most liberal beliefs of what is proper? Personally, I don’t think the state should be involved, and I certainly don’t think there should even be the possibility of a criminal charge for not adhering to the government’s ideas of what books are “proper.” What state do you live in? Your state does not have decency laws of any kind?
ChiGoose Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Orlando Tim said: What state do you live in? Your state does not have decency laws of any kind? Continuing to dodge the question, huh? I am not aware of any law in my state that makes it a felony to put books in a library.
Orlando Buffalo Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, ChiGoose said: Continuing to dodge the question, huh? I am not aware of any law in my state that makes it a felony to put books in a library. Funny how your being unaware that it is a jailable offense is your state, don't worry I did the research. A person commits contributing to the delinquency of a minor when he or she knowingly: (1) causes, aids, or encourages a minor to be or to become a delinquent minor; or (2) does acts which directly tend to render any minor so delinquent. (b) Contributing to the criminal delinquency of a minor. This would be the state setting standards that you find objectionable. Edited March 25, 2023 by Orlando Tim
ChiGoose Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 35 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said: Funny how your being unaware that it is a jailable offense is your state, don't worry I did the research. A person commits contributing to the delinquency of a minor when he or she knowingly: (1) causes, aids, or encourages a minor to be or to become a delinquent minor; or (2) does acts which directly tend to render any minor so delinquent. (b) Contributing to the criminal delinquency of a minor. This would be the state setting standards that you find objectionable. …you think delinquency is the same as putting And Tango Makes Three in a school library…?
Orlando Buffalo Posted March 25, 2023 Posted March 25, 2023 26 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: …you think delinquency is the same as putting And Tango Makes Three in a school library…? Who has been arrested for any book so far? You set a standard that does not exist and then feign outrage. In fact you seem to agree with the actual roll out of the law, just now with the media coverage 1
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