BarleyNY Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Billl said: I'm curious to know if there's a game that Edwards's supporters can point to that would illustrate him as a potential dominant force at LB. I've seen some really nice plays here and there, but I've never seen him ruin an opening team's gamelan. He and Milano are going to account for nearly $25,000,000 of cap soon, and I have a tough time understanding how that's value. Even if they were truly elite at their roles, I don't know that the scheme they're in lends itself to allowing them to be game wreckers. Seems like a ton of money to pay guys who are pretty average players filling de-emphasized positions. I suppose the plan is to spend money at LB and spend draft capital up front, but guys like Oliver and Epenesa had better take the next step because the front 7 has had a ton of resources poured into it. The money spent on Milano really makes the Edmunds to OLB angle moot in Buffalo. I’m not even saying it’s a bad idea. I would’ve liked him to have been tried there, but in today’s NFL you can’t pay two OLBs (unless you have a 3 man front) so it’s not happening here. The Bills spending on defense has been the highest in the league in each of the last two seasons (2020 & 2021). Add in the high draft picks also used on defense the last five drafts* and that’s a ton of resources devoted to the side of the ball that isn’t really producing. It’s concerning to say the least. *draft picks on defense in first 2 rounds: 2021: - 1st Rousseau - 2nd Basham 2020: - 2nd Epenesa 2019: - 1st Oliver 2018: - 1st Edmunds 2017: - 1st White Edited July 8, 2021 by BarleyNY 1 1 1
CorkScrewHill Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 ESPN asked front office personnel from across the league to rank MLB . Edmunds came in #8. .., with the interesting thing being the “professionals” seem as divided as Bills fans on it. One had him ranked #1 and one had him unranked (not top 15). Still having someone in any position in the top 8 for their role puts them in the top 25% in the league .. he is no kuechly but he is solid and he still has potential for improvement https://billswire.usatoday.com/2021/07/07/tremaine-edmunds-espn-top-10-linebackers-buffalo-bills/ 2
GunnerBill Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 1 hour ago, CorkScrewHill said: ESPN asked front office personnel from across the league to rank MLB . Edmunds came in #8. .., with the interesting thing being the “professionals” seem as divided as Bills fans on it. One had him ranked #1 and one had him unranked (not top 15). Still having someone in any position in the top 8 for their role puts them in the top 25% in the league .. he is no kuechly but he is solid and he still has potential for improvement https://billswire.usatoday.com/2021/07/07/tremaine-edmunds-espn-top-10-linebackers-buffalo-bills/ It doesn't surprise me at all that he divides opinion among professionals too. He is physically capable of things normal MLBs just can't do but he also doesn't do some of the traditional, fundamental meat and potatoes parts of the job at a consistent level.
Royale with Cheese Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 14 hours ago, starrymessenger said: I agree. Would you play Lawrence Taylor inside and ask him to quarterback the defence? I sure wouldn’t, and neither did Parcells. Tremaine is bigger and taller than Taylor was and his 40 time is down to the hundredth of a second as fast. He’s all round a ridiculous specimen and athlete. I think he’d be better suited to a more aggressive role on the edge. He’s not Luke but maybe he could be more like Lawrence. Seems obvious to me but I guess Coach knows best. If Edmunds had the physical ability to get to the QB like Taylor could, McDermott would absolutely put him there...especially since we lacked in the pass rush area. They aren't the same type of athlete, Taylor was much more agile which is why he is one of the greatest pass rushers of all time. 14 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Is it possible that coach McD is being a little stubborn with forcing Edmunds into the MLB position? Or do we have to automatically assume he knows what’s best for Tremaine on the field because he’s the HC of an NFL football team who’s background is defense? Coaches are wrong sometime you know…. They're only wrong when it's something you disagree with right Scott?
YattaOkasan Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 16 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: 1) Which ones are you anointing as OLB or WLB? The players listed were all considered "inside or middle" LB's in 2020 and almost all of the top 10 are in the NFC. That's a good definition of a "big disparity". And the terms 3-4 and 4-3 are BOTH misleading........because most teams have only 2 off-ball LB's on the field more often than not.....not even THAT uncommon see just 1 LB on the field in dime.....so while you are for some reason comfortable quantifying Edmunds as a MLB a fan of another team could easily wonder how he is considered a "middle" LB when it's usually just he and one other LB on the field. 2) No Edmunds TFL numbers are clearly disappointing. He has just 19 in 3 seasons......and a woeful 4 last season........while players like Devin White and Roquan Smith had 18 each in 2020 alone. 3) TFNG might be the mode or it might not........but if it's NOT it's very close to a TF1G or 2G or 3G........all mathematically successful defensive stops. Nobody has presented data that proves otherwise. TFL's for those individual yardages are MORE successful defensive results and much less common. Pro football reference has multiple of them as OLB. You claimed it was the mode early on based on your logic. The requirement for evidence lies with you. Another poster said they ran the numbers (did not present data) and said it was not. As i was scanning for that post im reminded you thought that hes an edge rusher. Clearly the NFL doesnt agree but you think you are wiser than them, and this isnt really a good faith discussion i see. I appreciate the comment about the pro bowl, but i am reminded why i dont engage with you on this board. 1 1 1
BADOLBILZ Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: It doesn't surprise me at all that he divides opinion among professionals too. He is physically capable of things normal MLBs just can't do but he also doesn't do some of the traditional, fundamental meat and potatoes parts of the job at a consistent level. He doesn't do a lot of the basics........but he doesn't make plays on the football or in the backfield either..........those are among the things he seems more physically capable of than those normal MLB's. We've touched on the lack of TFL's and sacks etc..........but he also had like 70 blitz attempts without even being credited with a single QB pressure last season! He's quite invisible to the casual observer.
BADOLBILZ Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 24 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said: Pro football reference has multiple of them as OLB. That's just a lie.......you never even looked them up. None of the players mentioned are listed as "OLB" on Pro football reference in 2020. Here are their positions per PFR: Devin White.......ILB Lavonte David.....ILB Roquan Smith.......ILB Demario Davis......MLB Eric Kendricks......MLB Bobby Wagner......ILB Deion Jones.........LLB Fred Warner.........MLB Blake Martinez.......ILB The only one not specifically listed as an inside or middle LB is Jones........which is a technicality by scheme.......he is a mike LB. Which is ultimately what we are talking about here in a league of predominantly 2 LB sets........LB's who often have mike assignments. I really shouldn't dignify your attempt to shout down my point with a bald-faced lie.........but I've been on TSW since 1998.........I'm used to that nonsense. 1 1
YattaOkasan Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: That's just a lie.......you never even looked them up. None of the players mentioned are listed as "OLB" on Pro football reference in 2020. Here are their positions per PFR: Devin White.......ILB Lavonte David.....ILB Roquan Smith.......ILB Demario Davis......MLB Eric Kendricks......MLB Bobby Wagner......ILB Deion Jones.........LLB Fred Warner.........MLB Blake Martinez.......ILB The only one not specifically listed as an inside or middle LB is Jones........which is a technicality by scheme.......he is a mike LB. Which is ultimately what we are talking about here in a league of predominantly 2 LB sets........LB's who often have mike assignments. I really shouldn't dignify your attempt to shout down my point with a bald-faced lie.........but I've been on TSW since 1998.........I'm used to that nonsense. Lies? how about links? https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaviLa00.htm https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JoneDe01.htm I think the mods @Hapless Bills Fan might need to step in at this point
starrymessenger Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said: If Edmunds had the physical ability to get to the QB like Taylor could, McDermott would absolutely put him there...especially since we lacked in the pass rush area. They aren't the same type of athlete, Taylor was much more agile which is why he is one of the greatest pass rushers of all time. They're only wrong when it's something you disagree with right Scott? I don’t necessarily agree or disagree. I was going to mention in my original post that two things were missing in (at least my) comparison of Edmunds and Taylor: 1) Straight line speed is nice but does Edmunds have anything like Taylor’s burst off the line and 2) does he possess the insane motor that Taylor had? I don’t know the answer to those questions because I’ve not seen Edmunds line up like Taylor. You seem to think you know and maybe you do. And maybe that explains why McD has not gone there. As for agility I thought (haven’t checked) that Edmunds did well in agility drills. I wasn’t implying that Tremaine was in the same league as possibly the greatest defensive player of all time, just that his physical and possibly mental attributes as well might be better suited to the outside. And if he had 3/4 of the burst and motor Taylor had along with Tremaine’s other skills he might be very good in that position.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: That's just a lie.......you never even looked them up. None of the players mentioned are listed as "OLB" on Pro football reference in 2020. Here are their positions per PFR: Devin White.......ILB Lavonte David.....ILB Roquan Smith.......ILB Demario Davis......MLB Eric Kendricks......MLB Bobby Wagner......ILB Deion Jones.........LLB Fred Warner.........MLB Blake Martinez.......ILB The only one not specifically listed as an inside or middle LB is Jones........which is a technicality by scheme.......he is a mike LB. Which is ultimately what we are talking about here in a league of predominantly 2 LB sets........LB's who often have mike assignments. I really shouldn't dignify your attempt to shout down my point with a bald-faced lie.........but I've been on TSW since 1998.........I'm used to that nonsense. @BADOLBILZ, You yourself just typed out "LLB" for Deion Jones. While that isn't "OLB", a moment's reflection would show that Pro Football Reference shows Atlanta running a 4-3 last season, with listings for LLB, MLB, and RLB - in other words LLB = OLB in their terminology. While Lavonte David played inside last two seasons, he also spent most of his career at RLB and is listed as an OLB by pro-football-reference. If you're hanging your hat on the difference between "LLB" or "RLB" and "OLB" when the context is clear one is a form of the other, then using it to call someone a liar, that's 1) sophistry at its finest 2) shows an unflinching focus on semantics to the point where it interferes with productive discussion. 3) ditto for tossing around terms like "bald faced lie" or "just a lie, you never even looked them up" in response - it appears focused on escalating and provoking, not engaging in civil football discussion. In fact it totally overshadows your salient point that where nickle D predominates, the question is really who has the Mike assignment? Productive and civil discussion would also point out that even granting those two still leaves 7 excellent MLB or ILBs in the NFC on your list, which seems to make your point - So why even go there with the insults unless your intent is to be disruptive here by provoking someone to escalate? 1 1
GunnerBill Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 Deion Jones I would describe as a hybrid. In Dean Pees scheme this coming year though he is going to play inside there is zero doubt about that and Pees generally doesn't have a designated Mike and a designated Will as his inside guys in his scheme he is pretty multi-functional the way he uses them. David has played inside under Bowles, played inside and outside under Mike Smith but was very much the will in Leslie Frazier's scheme when he was the DC there.
MJS Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 16 hours ago, BarleyNY said: The money spent on Milano really makes the Edmunds to OLB angle moot in Buffalo. I’m not even saying it’s a bad idea. I would’ve liked him to have been tried there, but in today’s NFL you can’t pay two OLBs (unless you have a 3 man front) so it’s not happening here. The Bills spending on defense has been the highest in the league in each of the last two seasons (2020 & 2021). Add in the high draft picks also used on defense the last five drafts* and that’s a ton of resources devoted to the side of the ball that isn’t really producing. It’s concerning to say the least. *draft picks on defense in first 2 rounds: 2021: - 1st Rousseau - 2nd Basham 2020: - 2nd Epenesa 2019: - 1st Oliver 2018: - 1st Edmunds 2017: - 1st White The Bills have had one of the best defenses in the NFL the past handful of years. They absolutely HAVE been producing. A rocky start to 2020 and all of the sudden we are claiming that the Bills have had a bad defense? They haven't. And they turned it around and played very well down the stretch even in 2020. This narrative is just so false it's funny. 1
Royale with Cheese Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 1 hour ago, starrymessenger said: I don’t necessarily agree or disagree. I was going to mention in my original post that two things were missing in (at least my) comparison of Edmunds and Taylor: 1) Straight line speed is nice but does Edmunds have anything like Taylor’s burst off the line and 2) does he possess the insane motor that Taylor had? I don’t know the answer to those questions because I’ve not seen Edmunds line up like Taylor. You seem to think you know and maybe you do. And maybe that explains why McD has not gone there. As for agility I thought (haven’t checked) that Edmunds did well in agility drills. I wasn’t implying that Tremaine was in the same league as possibly the greatest defensive player of all time, just that his physical and possibly mental attributes as well might be better suited to the outside. And if he had 3/4 of the burst and motor Taylor had along with Tremaine’s other skills he might be very good in that position. I know you weren’t. Edmunds just doesn’t seem to have initial burst, dip or bend to be a good edge rusher. His size is ideal but I don’t see the other attributes that would make him a good edge rusher.
BarleyNY Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, MJS said: The Bills have had one of the best defenses in the NFL the past handful of years. They absolutely HAVE been producing. A rocky start to 2020 and all of the sudden we are claiming that the Bills have had a bad defense? They haven't. And they turned it around and played very well down the stretch even in 2020. This narrative is just so false it's funny. You’re missing my obvious point. The Bills defense was very much middle of the pack last season. But the Bills have used more resources on it than any other team this year and last. That’s pretty poor value. It should be near the top of the league, but it certainly isn’t. It’s middle of the pack in defensive scoring, yardage, rushing and passing. This year’s performance obviously has yet to be seen, but it bears watching - and the proper lens through which to watch it is value for resources spent. OTOH the offense has really outperformed its resource use. They deserve credit for that.
The Frankish Reich Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 On 6/29/2021 at 1:01 PM, Bulldog said: Edmunds is a much better player than many of his critics are giving him credit for. He is still very young & while not playing at a pro bowl level (yet!) - he has shown well on the field in his early years. Remember, also, that he played through injury a good chunk of last season. Perhaps the "he only makes tackles 5 yards down field " crowd is confusing him with our former LB Paul Pozluszny. Now there was a master of the downfield tackle. All valid points. But ... I never got the Poz hate. He was a second round pick who lasted 11 years as an NFL starting LB. If only our other 1st and 2nd rounders from that era had performed as well ... 1
MJS Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 10 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: You’re missing my obvious point. The Bills defense was very much middle of the pack last season. But the Bills have used more resources on it than any other team this year and last. That’s pretty poor value. It should be near the top of the league, but it certainly isn’t. It’s middle of the pack in defensive scoring, yardage, rushing and passing. This year’s performance obviously has yet to be seen, but it bears watching - and the proper lens through which to watch it is value for resources spent. OTOH the offense has really outperformed its resource use. They deserve credit for that. And my point is that previous years, also years that you are discussing the assets put into the defense, they were one of the best defenses in the league. The Bills defense in 2020 struggled early on, but towards the end of the season was producing like a top 5 unit. That's what brought their averages up to middle of the pack. 2020 was a strange season. It is silly to believe, given the consistent success of the defense and their improvement in 2020, that they are an average unit. 1
BarleyNY Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 14 minutes ago, MJS said: And my point is that previous years, also years that you are discussing the assets put into the defense, they were one of the best defenses in the league. The Bills defense in 2020 struggled early on, but towards the end of the season was producing like a top 5 unit. That's what brought their averages up to middle of the pack. 2020 was a strange season. It is silly to believe, given the consistent success of the defense and their improvement in 2020, that they are an average unit. I discussed financials for last season and this season as well as draft picks since McDermott got here. The Bills defense was absolutely not playing like a top 5 defense at the end of the season. They had some good games, but not against quality offenses. Other than maybe the Ravens playoff game which was aided by Lamar Jackson getting knocked out of it - and a stellar pick six with a 100+ yard return. 1 1
NewEra Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 42 minutes ago, MJS said: And my point is that previous years, also years that you are discussing the assets put into the defense, they were one of the best defenses in the league. The Bills defense in 2020 struggled early on, but towards the end of the season was producing like a top 5 unit. That's what brought their averages up to middle of the pack. 2020 was a strange season. It is silly to believe, given the consistent success of the defense and their improvement in 2020, that they are an average unit. Doesn’t hurt that the last 5 QBs we faced in the regular season were- Mullens, Big Ben, Lock, Cam and Tua. 1
MJS Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 19 minutes ago, NewEra said: Doesn’t hurt that the last 5 QBs we faced in the regular season were- Mullens, Big Ben, Lock, Cam and Tua. It all counts.
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