I keep hearing on this board that Tremaine Edmunds only makes tackles 5+ yards past the L.O.S..🤔

[YattaOkasan]

On 7/4/2021 at 2:55 PM, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

Those whining about Edmunds criticism go back and watch the first patriots game from last year. He was the worst player on the field by far.

After that game I couldn’t help but notice his poor play the rest of the season. I’m not sure I can be convinced it’s mostly due to injury. I keep an open mind, but there are plays where there is no way it is the D line’s fault. 
 

Hopefully I’m wrong and he is healthy and improved next season. 
 

As for the calls for him to be traded. I chalk that up to his perceived value around the league being higher than his actually play on the field. His pro bowl selection was a joke. The best MLBs are in the NFC and Hightower, Mosley, and Bush didn’t play last season in the AFC. 

 

Why was his pro bowl selection a joke?  He didnt win the fan vote which is largely how jokes make it to the pro bowl.  Your reference to best MLBs not playing last year was not about Tre's pro bowl was it?  Also I think Tre has more value over Hightower at this point in his career (agree Mosley is better but he is also a bit of an unknown, obviously Bush has played better). 

 

There has been talk that with AJ Klein on the field Tre was trying to do too much and that game may have been an example of that.  He needs to play better than last year, but was totally fine with exercising the 5th year option on a physical freak that may need more time.

[just1hugheser]

On 6/30/2021 at 8:33 PM, Doc said:

 

Not really opinion: that's where he played in college. Obviously McD and co. know a hell of a lot more than I do, but I think they're trying to find their Kuechly and pounding a square peg into a round hole (that part is opinion).  I'd just hate to have tried him at MLB for the first 4 years, (potentially) give up on him and see him excel elsewhere at OLB.

 

 

I totally understand this, and feel this a lot of times too, I just keep telling myself to realize that the defense I want us to run(more aggressive as opposed to keep everything in front of you) is NOT THE DEFENSE THIS TEAM WANTS TO RUN/USES, and thats perfectly ok but imo if thats the case you better have a top 5 DLine because the front 4 will have to be able to create havoc against the likes of OLines such as KC's, NE's, DAL's, TEN's, INDY's, GB's, because we are super bowl or bust at this point and going forward simply because of JA.  And imo the only way to beat top QBs is to get pressure/hits like moving a shooter off his spot.  I am fingers crossed that they have timed the development of Epenesa, Oliver, Johnson, etc. and got a steal in Efe to go with the top two picks this year and we have a nasty rotation and defense.

[BADOLBILZ]

On 7/3/2021 at 1:31 AM, YattaOkasan said:

Thanks for the response. Appreciate the 2nd point. And agree with much of the third (I don’t think McD thinks it’s devalued).
 

on the first point I guess we need to think about exact yardage and how the data set was formed. If it is in integers I am very certain that 0 is not the mode. 1 or 2 would seem to be the most common result.  If we’re gonna parse it out to decimals the. Yes you’re probably right TFNG would be higher but i strongly doubt any data set would have that much granularity. 

 

Yardage is not accounted for in decimals........it's rounded up or down for statistical purposes.    So every play is a full yard figure or zero.   So sometimes you may gain or lose a fraction of a yard and not be credited with either a gain or loss.   The mode result isn't going to have a decimal in it.

 

My point being that zero is the most common kind of tackle and since often half the players on both teams are within that very small area when the ball crosses the LOS......more than noteworthy on a 100 yard playing surface........it's then much more subjective to assign individual responsibility.    It really becomes a "team" tackle at that point.   That's why it's rarely cited in conjunction with splash plays like TFL or sack.    

 

It's sketchy as an individual stat.

 

If you have a ton of tackles from the LB position you will get credit for a good deal of the most common type.   Edmunds hasn't really stood out as a run-stuffer........I think even his biggest defenders would acknowledge that........but what he has done is play in a lot of games and been credited with a lot of tackles over the specific time period of 3 seasons.      

 

PFF does a lot of the type of analysis that the subject of the thread was trying to massage into greater meaning than it has........the assigning of value to each player on plays that are very complex and where credit seems very subjective.    In PFF's world Edmunds is way below average.........much, much worse than the majority of his critics(like myself) see him as.        

[YattaOkasan]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yardage is not accounted for in decimals........it's rounded up or down for statistical purposes.    So every play is a full yard figure or zero.   So sometimes you may gain or lose a fraction of a yard and not be credited with either a gain or loss.   The mode result isn't going to have a decimal in it.

 

My point being that zero is the most common kind of tackle and since often half the players on both teams are within that very small area when the ball crosses the LOS......more than noteworthy on a 100 yard playing surface........it's then much more subjective to assign individual responsibility.    It really becomes a "team" tackle at that point.   That's why it's rarely cited in conjunction with splash plays like TFL or sack.    

 

It's sketchy as an individual stat.

 

If you have a ton of tackles from the LB position you will get credit for a good deal of the most common type.   Edmunds hasn't really stood out as a run-stuffer........I think even his biggest defenders would acknowledge that........but what he has done is play in a lot of games and been credited with a lot of tackles over the specific time period of 3 seasons.      

 

PFF does a lot of the type of analysis that the subject of the thread was trying to massage into greater meaning than it has........the assigning of value to each player on plays that are very complex and where credit seems very subjective.    In PFF's world Edmunds is way below average.........much, much worse than the majority of his critics(like myself) see him as.        

See posts above. It’s def not mode as I suspected. Agree with much of the rest.
 

I do think though the league see his value different than fans or pff. Again his pro bowl nod came from coaches and players. They aren’t infallible but I think they have a very different perspective whats

good. Thanks for the convo. 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

See posts above. It’s def not mode as I suspected. Agree with much of the rest.
 

I do think though the league see his value different than fans or pff. Again his pro bowl nod came from coaches and players. They aren’t infallible but I think they have a very different perspective whats

good. Thanks for the convo. 

 

The pro bowl vote does not reflect the player's ranking within the league.......it reflects their ranking within the conference.

 

That's why Edmunds can objectively be seen as perhaps just the 10th-12th best MLB in the league but still be a very reasonable selection by players and coaches for the pro bowl in the AFC.  

 

The AFC is just extremely weak at MLB.    The situations at MLB in New England and Pittsburgh made it even weaker last year.

 

Meanwhile, the NFC is relatively loaded at the position.

 

As for the fans input.........as weak as the AFC is at the position it's really hard to expect fans to choose from a group that makes so few impact plays.    To most non-Bills fans Edmunds is invisible because of the lack of plays and to Bills fans he's disappointing because they expected he'd be maybe the league's best at the position and he's much closer to average than being at the very top.    

 

His disappearing act on the big stage in the AFCCG.........when he had a chance to really introduce himself to a much broader audience.........was a big missed chance to elevate awareness about him as a player.

 

[YattaOkasan]

20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The pro bowl vote does not reflect the player's ranking within the league.......it reflects their ranking within the conference.

 

That's why Edmunds can objectively be seen as perhaps just the 10th-12th best MLB in the league but still be a very reasonable selection by players and coaches for the pro bowl in the AFC.  

 

The AFC is just extremely weak at MLB.    The situations at MLB in New England and Pittsburgh made it even weaker last year.

 

Meanwhile, the NFC is relatively loaded at the position.

 

As for the fans input.........as weak as the AFC is at the position it's really hard to expect fans to choose from a group that makes so few impact plays.    To most non-Bills fans Edmunds is invisible because of the lack of plays and to Bills fans he's disappointing because they expected he'd be maybe the league's best at the position and he's much closer to average than being at the very top.    

 

His disappearing act on the big stage in the AFCCG.........when he had a chance to really introduce himself to a much broader audience.........was a big missed chance to elevate awareness about him as a player.

 

it’s a fair point but you’re still giving it a deep discount as I don’t think the disparity in the conferences is that big.  I only brought up the fans to say he wasn’t voted in by them. I don’t really care if non bills fans know who he is; I do know that players and coaches think highly of him (with caveats about potential disparities between the conferences understood)
 

your final paragraph is eerily similar to how peeps were talking about josh last year. If the the kid is a competitor and a leader (and by most accounts he’s at least the second) then I’m pretty excited about what he’s gonna do this year. Heck last year was supposed to be his coming out party not Josh’s. 

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

it’s a fair point but you’re still giving it a deep discount as I don’t think the disparity in the conferences is that big.  I only brought up the fans to say he wasn’t voted in by them. I don’t really care if non bills fans know who he is; I do know that players and coaches think highly of him (with caveats about potential disparities between the conferences understood)
 

your final paragraph is eerily similar to how peeps were talking about josh last year. If the the kid is a competitor and a leader (and by most accounts he’s at least the second) then I’m pretty excited about what he’s gonna do this year. Heck last year was supposed to be his coming out party not Josh’s. 

 

 

1)   Oh the disparity at MLB between the NFC and AFC is absolutely that big.   Guys like Devin White, Erick Kendricks, Demario Davis, Fred Warner, Lavonte David,  Roquan Smith,  Deion Jones and Bobby Wagner are all clearly better than Edmunds(and if you think I am being unfair look at NYG Blake Martinez stats last year, the list could easily be expanded).     Darius Leonard is generally regarded as the class of the AFC.    So Edmunds is way down the list league-wise.   What's concerning is that there are guys on that NFC list like Kendricks and Davis who are kinda' journeymen types that are clearly better.    Edmunds should have blown past those guys,  but his lack of instincts reduces him.

 

2) Whether you care if fans know who Edmunds is or not is irrelevant.........the OP was stating that the fact that coaches and players voted Edmunds into the pro bowl was proof that he was one of the top 4 ILB's in the entire NFL.    That's not the case.    Fans can't identify him because he doesn't make plays so he's not going to get fan votes.   Pro bowl voting is not about who is the best in the league, it's about the conference.    

 

3) Last year was absolutely supposed to be Josh Allen's breakthrough season.    Not sure why you thought otherwise.    You could sum this board and the media consensus up last offseason as "the Bills will go as far as Josh Allen takes them".    He was absolutely the focal point.    I was always a believer in Allen because he didn't let a lack of experience/understanding of the game prevent him from impacting the game.    The problem with Edmunds is that his lack of instincts for the position has prevented him from making game changing plays.    I hope he breaks out,   I have praised his talent since he was drafted,  but he has to show that his freakish talent translates to a position normally played by players with less $ valuable athletic profiles.     

 

[Billy Claude]

I was expecting a breakout year from Edmunds last year.  He really seem like he was ready to step up after a pretty decent year two.  Hopefully, the fact that he didn't, was due to injury and missing other players. However, I do not know how Star went from TBD whipping boy to linchpin of the defense simply by not playing for a year.

 

Something that always concerned me is that Edmund's pre-draft scouting reports all mentioned his freak athleticism but many also noted that he did not seem very instinctive and was often caught out of position.  You might excuse this since he was extremely young, but there were also stories about how he was unusually well prepared for the NFL because he and his father would break down his play after every game.   If he was so well prepared why didn't this show up on the field?  Perhaps all that coaching from his father meant that he is thinking too much?

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Billy Claude

[buffaloaggie]

On 6/30/2021 at 6:13 PM, ndirish1978 said:

I don't get the hate, I like him

It's not hate. He has not lived up to the hype. Defensive Rookie of the Year predictions fell short. This year, I have seen a Defensive Player of the Year prediction now from LaConfora. I think many agree he is out of position, and he does not play with good instinct. He's an athlete that can chase down plays, better suited as an OLB. 

[YattaOkasan]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1)   Oh the disparity at MLB between the NFC and AFC is absolutely that big.   Guys like Devin White, Erick Kendricks, Demario Davis, Fred Warner, Lavonte David,  Roquan Smith,  Deion Jones and Bobby Wagner are all clearly better than Edmunds(and if you think I am being unfair look at NYG Blake Martinez stats last year, the list could easily be expanded).     Darius Leonard is generally regarded as the class of the AFC.    So Edmunds is way down the list league-wise.   What's concerning is that there are guys on that NFC list like Kendricks and Davis who are kinda' journeymen types that are clearly better.    Edmunds should have blown past those guys,  but his lack of instincts reduces him.

 

2) Whether you care if fans know who Edmunds is or not is irrelevant.........the OP was stating that the fact that coaches and players voted Edmunds into the pro bowl was proof that he was one of the top 4 ILB's in the entire NFL.    That's not the case.    Fans can't identify him because he doesn't make plays so he's not going to get fan votes.   Pro bowl voting is not about who is the best in the league, it's about the conference.    

 

3) Last year was absolutely supposed to be Josh Allen's breakthrough season.    Not sure why you thought otherwise.    You could sum this board and the media consensus up last offseason as "the Bills will go as far as Josh Allen takes them".    He was absolutely the focal point.    I was always a believer in Allen because he didn't let a lack of experience/understanding of the game prevent him from impacting the game.    The problem with Edmunds is that his lack of instincts for the position has prevented him from making game changing plays.    I hope he breaks out,   I have praised his talent since he was drafted,  but he has to show that his freakish talent translates to a position normally played by players with less $ valuable athletic profiles.     

 

1) Several of these are OLB or Wills so again not so sure youre comparison is correct.  Are we expanding this to all off ball LB?  For ILB in 3-4 or MLB in 4-3 I dont see such a disparity between the conferences.  

 

2) The OP seemed to be saying that TFL numbers show Edmunds wasn't so bad.  You tried to say TFNG was the mode of the data set based on logic.  That was wrong.  The pro bowl discussion has gotten a bit out of hand.  I'll take the point that its not as big of a thing to hang your hat on based on the covid year and potential differences between conferences.  Not sure where visibility became a thing but it doesnt matter to me.  Overall the TFL topic is a reason to be hopeful for your point 3, but you seem to be fighting it.  

 

3)I was def on the "this team will go as far as Allen takes them" train cause of the correlation between QB and team performance, but I was absolutely expecting Edmunds to have the break out year (Allen I expected some improvement but not breakout) and I think most of the board thought so too (see the post above that you liked).  

 

I agree with your last 3 sentences.  To this point he has not played to his potential.  I believe you had previously stated you would not pay him his 5th year?  If I'm wrong ignore this, but I don't get the logic in that.  A young freak athlete without good instincts at a position that players seem to grow into (couple recent notable exceptions) seems ideal for a 5th year.  

 

If youre last 3 sentences are how you feel I think were pretty aligned.  I think he does a lot more than shows up in the stats but he does need to make more game changing plays from a position where cheaper talent can be found.  

[Billl]

I'm curious to know if there's a game that Edwards's supporters can point to that would illustrate him as a potential dominant force at LB.  I've seen some really nice plays here and there, but I've never seen him ruin an opening team's gamelan.  He and Milano are going to account for nearly $25,000,000 of cap soon, and I have a tough time understanding how that's value.  Even if they were truly elite at their roles, I don't know that the scheme they're in lends itself to allowing them to be game wreckers.  Seems like a ton of money to pay guys who are pretty average players filling de-emphasized positions. 

 

I suppose the plan is to spend money at LB and spend draft capital up front, but guys like Oliver and Epenesa had better take the next step because the front 7 has had a ton of resources poured into it.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, YattaOkasan said:

1) Several of these are OLB or Wills so again not so sure youre comparison is correct.  Are we expanding this to all off ball LB?  For ILB in 3-4 or MLB in 4-3 I dont see such a disparity between the conferences.  

 

2) The OP seemed to be saying that TFL numbers show Edmunds wasn't so bad.  You tried to say TFNG was the mode of the data set based on logic.  That was wrong.  The pro bowl discussion has gotten a bit out of hand.  I'll take the point that its not as big of a thing to hang your hat on based on the covid year and potential differences between conferences.  Not sure where visibility became a thing but it doesnt matter to me.  Overall the TFL topic is a reason to be hopeful for your point 3, but you seem to be fighting it.  

 

3)I was def on the "this team will go as far as Allen takes them" train cause of the correlation between QB and team performance, but I was absolutely expecting Edmunds to have the break out year (Allen I expected some improvement but not breakout) and I think most of the board thought so too (see the post above that you liked).  

 

I agree with your last 3 sentences.  To this point he has not played to his potential.  I believe you had previously stated you would not pay him his 5th year?  If I'm wrong ignore this, but I don't get the logic in that.  A young freak athlete without good instincts at a position that players seem to grow into (couple recent notable exceptions) seems ideal for a 5th year.  

 

If youre last 3 sentences are how you feel I think were pretty aligned.  I think he does a lot more than shows up in the stats but he does need to make more game changing plays from a position where cheaper talent can be found.  

 

 

1) Which ones are you anointing as OLB or WLB?   The players listed were all considered "inside or middle" LB's in 2020 and almost all of the top 10 are in the NFC.    That's a good definition of a "big disparity".   And the terms 3-4 and 4-3 are BOTH misleading........because most teams have only 2 off-ball LB's on the field more often than not.....not even THAT uncommon see just 1 LB on the field in dime.....so while you are for some reason comfortable quantifying Edmunds as a MLB a fan of another team could easily wonder how he is considered a "middle" LB when it's usually just he and one other LB on the field.       

 

2) No Edmunds TFL numbers are clearly disappointing.   He has just 19 in 3 seasons......and a woeful 4 last season........while players like Devin White and Roquan Smith had 18 each in 2020 alone.   

 

3) TFNG might be the mode or it might not........but if it's NOT it's very close to a TF1G or 2G or 3G........all mathematically successful defensive stops.   Nobody has presented data that proves otherwise.   TFL's for those individual yardages are MORE successful defensive results and much less common.    

    

[GoBills808]

^^he’s a Mike because he’s responsible for A gaps

[GoBills808]

EDIT- the fact that we don't understand the relationship between Edmunds' position and responsibilities vis a vis the MLB designation should probably end further discussion

[starrymessenger]

On 6/30/2021 at 9:35 PM, PrimeTime101 said:

your opinion is he would be better with what he did in college as edge. McD' opinion is that he should be an ILB. Coaches opinion that matters in this case he played the position he is being paid for.. 

 

All that being said.. I agree.. he would be a better OLB/EDGE

I agree. Would you play Lawrence Taylor inside and ask him to quarterback the defence? I sure wouldn’t, and neither did Parcells. Tremaine is bigger and taller than Taylor was and his 40 time is down to the hundredth of a second as fast. He’s all round a ridiculous specimen and athlete. I think he’d be better suited to a more aggressive role on the edge. He’s not Luke but maybe he could be more like Lawrence. Seems obvious to me but I guess Coach knows best.

Edited July 7, 2021 by starrymessenger

[Orlando Buffalo]

I am not comparing myself to an NFL coach but I have players I coach that are 10-12 who it takes time to get up to potential, especially as they are growing into their body. I understand the difference but there is a reason why it so often takes years to get great, in basketball Devin Booker is finally great after 6 years and a guard in the NBA is simpler than MLB in the NFL.

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

^^he’s a Mike because he’s responsible for A gaps

Mike's are also responsible for running backs in a base defense

 

In the nickel which we run more often than not.. McDermott scheme again puts Tremaine on the running back and the will on the tight end.. for the people who wonder why he doesn't lock down tight ends

 

He's usually covering tightends in zone coverage not man

 

Not to mention the amount of space he takes up dropping into his Tampa two.. he makes it nearly impossible to throw over him

Edited July 7, 2021 by Buffalo716

[starrymessenger]

13 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Is it possible that coach McD is being a little stubborn with forcing Edmunds into the MLB position?

 

Or do we have to automatically assume he knows what’s best for Tremaine on the field because he’s the HC of an NFL football team who’s background is defense?

 

Coaches are wrong sometime you know….

I think its possible that McD is being a little stubborn. I also think its possible, and indeed more likely, that he knows exactly what he’s doing. I don’t see it but so what. I’m just a fan.

[Mat68]

Its an increasingly hard position to play.  Even harder to find good ones.  He is good.  All he needs to do is catch the ball better.  He turns a handfull of dropped picks to Ints he is now elite.  He is missing the big play.  He is in position and does a good job.  He makes the handfull of plays he is in position to make perception will change.

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Mike's are also responsible for running backs in a base defense

 

In the nickel which we run more often than not.. McDermott scheme again puts Tremaine on the running back and the will on the tight end.. for the people who wonder why he doesn't lock down tight ends

 

He's usually covering tightends in zone coverage not man

 

Not to mention the amount of space he takes up dropping into his Tampa two.. he makes it nearly impossible to throw over him

 

 

Unfortunately thowing over him in zone isn't the only way to attack him in the passing game.............in 2020 with a couple of seasons of tape on him.......QB's instead manipulated him out of the areas they wanted to attack and because he doesn't make plays on the football they started making more tight window throws right in his jurisdiction as well.

 

His 2020 was reminiscent of when QB's realized that the Bills brilliant CB Thomas Smith couldn't catch a football to save his life.   He went from a dominant CB who saw perhaps the least number of passes thrown at him in the entire AFC in one season.......to a guy that teams attacked with surprisingly good results the next.    That affected his confidence and compounded the issue. 

 

 If the worst result is the ball falling to the turf incomplete.......that will not deter teams from attacking you once they figure that out.

 

My guess is that Edmunds can catch the ball just fine........his father and brother were skill players.   He doesn't have the instincts of a skill player though.......he's not the mirror image of the opposing RB in run defense........he doesn't sense where the RB sense's the action will go so he's always left reacting instead of correctly anticipating.     And when the ball is in the air his clock shuts off the millisecond that he thinks the play is over........where a guy like Jordan Poyer is always ready to grab a stray deflection etc..    It's maddening watching a player with Edmunds physical skill leave SO MUCH on the table.