Honest discussion about racism (non political)

[JaCrispy]

I don’t really want this thread to be about mud slinging, but rather open and honest discussion about how we draw conclusions about racism...The following are just random thoughts and musings of how my brain tries to logically make sense of one of the bigger issues of the day...

 

Premise (2 issues)

(1) I never understood people who claimed that only white people could be racist because only they had power...(2) Because then those same people would turn around and say white people were inherently racist, like it was some gene that only white people were born with...But those are two different notions- If white people are born racist, why would they need power to be racist? Let’s examine...

 

Conclusion to issue #1

First of all, if, in order to be racist you must have power, what about in predominantly Asian countries, or Middle Eastern countries, or South American countries? Is a white person, who travels to those countries,” all of a sudden not racist because his race might not be the majority, or not in a position to have power? Furthermore, does that make those majority races racist because they have the power in those regions? And does this, in turn, show that racism and power are two mutually exclusive concepts that may or may not be connected in any given situation?
 

Conclusion to issue #2

Second of all, we all have an ego, which serves to protect the interests of the “self”...therefore, are we ALL not naturally hesitant and unsure of those things/people that seem unfamiliar or different to us, for the sake of self preservation?  Does this mean that we are ALL biologically hardwired to be racist?
 

Feel free to discuss...

Edited June 26, 2021 by JaCrispy

[Frat-Train]

Imagine you’re given a Nintendo Wii (back when it was cool and cutting edge).  The objective of the entire gaming system is to simply develop your character through experience.  Today’s world can’t begin the games because they’re too busy fighting and arguing about what their character should look like and abilities they should already possess without experience, based on nothing more than their feelings.  So no one plays or has fun.  No one is developing their character.  And sadly, the entire purpose of the Wii is never fully realized.  
 

That’s the value of racism and the effects of not operating in a world of forgiveness, self-accountability and progression, moving away from, “what has my country done for me” and into, “how do I do for my country?”

Edited June 26, 2021 by Frat-Train

[JaCrispy]

8 minutes ago, Frat-Train said:

Imagine you’re given a Nintendo Wii (back when it was cool and cutting edge).  The objective of the entire gaming system is to simply develop your character through experience.  Today’s world can’t begin the games because they’re too busy fighting and arguing about what their character should look like and abilities they should already possess without experience, based on nothing more than their feelings.  So no one plays or has fun.  No one is developing their character.  And sadly, the entire purpose of the Wii is never fully realized.  
 

That’s the value of racism and the effects of not operating in a world of forgiveness, self-accountability and progression, moving away from, “what has my country done for me” and into, “how do I do for my country?”

Very interesting perspective...👍

[Unforgiven]

I think it boils down to power grifters taking advantage of weak people to attack other weak people. 

It's all about the power.

[Frat-Train]

24 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I don’t really want this thread to be about mud slinging, but rather open and honest discussion about how we draw conclusions about racism...The following are just random thoughts and musings of how my brain tries to logically make sense of one of the bigger issues of the day...

 

Premise (2 issues)

(1) I never understood people who claimed that only white people could be racist because only they had power...(2) Because then those same people would turn around and say white people were inherently racist, like it was some gene that only white people were born with...But those are two different notions- If white people are born racist, why would they need power to be racist?

 

Conclusion to issue #1

First of all, if, in order to be racist you must have power, what about in predominantly Asian countries, or Middle Eastern countries, or South American countries? Is a white person, who travels to those countries,” all of a sudden not racist because his race might not be the majority, or not in a position to have power? Furthermore, does that make those majority races racist because they have the power in those regions? And does this, in turn, show that racism and power are two mutually exclusive concepts that may or may not be connected in any given situation?
 

Conclusion to issue #2

Second of all, we all have an ego, which serves to protect the interests of the “self”...therefore, are we ALL not naturally hesitant and unsure of those things/people that seem unfamiliar or different to us, for the sake of self preservation?  Does this mean that we are ALL biologically hardwired to be racist?
 

Feel free to discuss...

You have so many good points here, btw...  One I would like to touch on is what America’s understanding of racism is and what ACTUAL OPPRESSIVE racism looks like.  When racism is mentioned in the US, the natural thought is white vs.  let’s be truthful.  That’s been the narrative.  But Americans have no idea what true oppression looks like, when you think of the liberties we take for granted in our country, everyday.  There’s no homosexuality in the Middle East, and in much of Asia.  It’s still in many countries, punishable by death.  There’s still slavery practiced in Mexico and Africa (legally in some parts).  America is one of the only countries in the world where people can live how they want, surrounded by wealth, food and water and still complain about it openly, while burning their nation’s flag and being a white, black, Latino  or Asian supremest.  We’re driving hard to a hoop of oppression, through a lane of privilege we are forsaking.  Irony cannot be written any better. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, JaCrispy said:

I don’t really want this thread to be about mud slinging, but rather open and honest discussion about how we draw conclusions about racism...The following are just random thoughts and musings of how my brain tries to logically make sense of one of the bigger issues of the day...

 

Premise (2 issues)

(1) I never understood people who claimed that only white people could be racist because only they had power...(2) Because then those same people would turn around and say white people were inherently racist, like it was some gene that only white people were born with...But those are two different notions- If white people are born racist, why would they need power to be racist?

 

Conclusion to issue #1

First of all, if, in order to be racist you must have power, what about in predominantly Asian countries, or Middle Eastern countries, or South American countries? Is a white person, who travels to those countries,” all of a sudden not racist because his race might not be the majority, or not in a position to have power? Furthermore, does that make those majority races racist because they have the power in those regions? And does this, in turn, show that racism and power are two mutually exclusive concepts that may or may not be connected in any given situation?
 

Conclusion to issue #2

Second of all, we all have an ego, which serves to protect the interests of the “self”...therefore, are we ALL not naturally hesitant and unsure of those things/people that seem unfamiliar or different to us, for the sake of self preservation?  Does this mean that we are ALL biologically hardwired to be racist?
 

Feel free to discuss...

interesting thought process. I’ve always viewed racism as a tool used to manifest power over a group of people. I believe it’s bourn consciously or unconsciously from externalities not internally from an individual. With exception; like if you are a woman frequently abused by males perhaps you grow to think all males are abusive as an example. But even here it’s external that resulted in this individual view. 
 

People who want power point to a group as the enemy or inferior, instantly granting their own followers either righteousness or superiority.
 

It’s a mechanism to manipulate the tribalism of human nature into power over them. It is unfortunately this same personal belief that makes me unable to accept religion. 
 

I also reject that it can only be a majority construct. I guess maybe a majority in a vacuum is necessary, like a Closed online chat room hate groups with only their band of haters allowed or something.  
 

I mean if some group decides they want to kill all people who don’t believe their religion or look like them aren’t they demonstrating race based hatred?  
 

Also if one of the pillars of racism is that smaller group shouldn’t be able to take from our larger group, it seems odd the majority would fear the minority, who as a whole likely possesses less in aggregate. 
 

in this case I’d more expect the minority to be ’ists’ against majority because they have more of everything… right? 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[TH3]

Nah....There are ALOT of white folk here in the red white and blue who think brown people are inferior.....ALOT 

[Frat-Train]

5 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Nah....There are ALOT of white folk here in the red white and blue who think brown people are inferior.....ALOT 

Yes there are.  There’s an overwhelming amount of skin-color related prejudice that still exists.  The good news is hatred or an outward prejudice towards any shade, color, nationality or variety is in itself racism and if we remember that, we can identify it quickly and denounce it in unison.  It’s when we allow racism to transpire without holding every person to the same standards of right and wrong, where we find ourselves in this present predicament.  Racism is the same awful candy, regardless of the different color wrapping on the outside.  

[Big Blitz]

11 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Nah....There are ALOT of white folk here in the red white and blue who think brown people are inferior.....ALOT 

 

 

Yep.

 

They think brown people don't know how to register to vote or get to a voting booth on election day.   

 

They refuse to allow any apartments to be built in lilly white San Francisco.  Which was 13% Black in 1970 and is now 6%.  

 

"Liberals" are the most racist people on earth seeing only the exploitation of race for political gain via identity politics.  

[JaCrispy]

18 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Nah....There are ALOT of white folk here in the red white and blue who think brown people are inferior.....ALOT 

Ok, that is your opinion, and that is fine, but how do you feel about the OP?

3 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Yep.

 

They think brown people don't know how to register to vote or get to a voting booth on election day.   

 

They refuse to allow any apartments to be built in lilly white San Francisco.  Which was 13% Black in 1970 and is now 6%.  

 

"Liberals" are the most racist people on earth seeing only the exploitation of race for political gain via identity politics.  

That is fine to have that opinion but I want to keep this thread more about discussing the premises of the “racist” claims rather than the politics...

 

I want this thread to be about seeking truth and not about scoring political points...

Edited June 26, 2021 by JaCrispy

[Big Blitz]

3 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Ok, that is your opinion, and that is fine, but how do you feel about the OP?

That is fine to have that opinion but I want to keep this thread more about discussing the premises of the “racist” claims rather than the politics...

 

I was this thread to be about seeking truth and not about scoring political points...

 

 

 

Implicit bias is something we should be aware of and do our best to resist before judging.  

 

It's human nature and has kept man away from "harm" since we stood up on 2 legs.  

 

The problem is bad people let them manifest to one sweeping negative general view of an entire race, gender, or ethnicity.  We apply positive biases to btw.  But these biases have turned into "everything is racist."  

[JaCrispy]

28 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

interesting thought process. I’ve always viewed racism as a tool used to manifest power over a group of people. I believe it’s bourn consciously or unconsciously from externalities not internally from an individual. With exception; like if you are a woman frequently abused by males perhaps you grow to think all males are abusive as an example. But even here it’s external that resulted in this individual view. 
 

People who want power point to a group as the enemy or inferior, instantly granting their own followers either righteousness or superiority.
 

It’s a mechanism to manipulate the tribalism of human nature into power over them. It is unfortunately this same personal belief that makes me unable to accept religion. 
 

I also reject that it can only be a majority construct. I guess maybe a majority in a vacuum is necessary, like a Closed online chat room hate groups with only their band of haters allowed or something.  
 

I mean if some group decides they want to kill all people who don’t believe their religion or look like them aren’t they demonstrating race based hatred?  
 

Also if one of the pillars of racism is that smaller group shouldn’t be able to take from our larger group, it seems odd the majority would fear the minority, who as a whole likely possesses less in aggregate. 
 

in this case I’d more expect the minority to be ’ists’ against majority because they have more of everything… right? 

Great post... the bolded really reminded of something I once heard from a public speaker...He claimed there were actually 2 forms of racism, but that one was not as well known as the other...

 

(1) The first kind is the kind we always hear about...It’s when someone believes their race to be superior to another race...Therefore that person would look down on others because they were considered less than...

 

(2) The second kind of racism is the kind we don’t often hear about...It’s the kind where someone believes they are inferior to someone else...And as a result they become jealous and resentful, even hateful, towards another ethnic group...(The example the speaker used was the violence that blacks (more than any other ethnic group) perpetrate on the Asian American community.  The speaker claims that this “black on Asian” hate comes from Asians coming here with nothing, and eventually (on average) earning higher, per capita, wages than white Americans- dispelling the whole narrative of white supremacy keeping people down...It also further shines a light on the black community, and begs the question- what’s your excuse now?

 

(Now, just to keep it real, the black population in America is wealthier than any other black population around the world...In fact, if you combined the total wealth of black Americans, it would constitute the 15th wealthiest nation On Earth.  And that’s after coming through slavery and Jim Crow...so I do feel all the racism talk is a little overblown, to put it mildly.)

58 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

 

Implicit bias is something we should be aware of and do our best to resist before judging.  

 

It's human nature and has kept man away from "harm" since we stood up on 2 legs.  

 

The problem is bad people let them manifest to one sweeping negative general view of an entire race, gender, or ethnicity.  We apply positive biases to btw.  But these biases have turned into "everything is racist."  

Completely agree 👍

[Tiberius]

5 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

I don’t really want this thread to be about mud slinging, but rather open and honest discussion about how we draw conclusions about racism...The following are just random thoughts and musings of how my brain tries to logically make sense of one of the bigger issues of the day...

 

Premise (2 issues)

(1) I never understood people who claimed that only white people could be racist because only they had power...(2) Because then those same people would turn around and say white people were inherently racist, like it was some gene that only white people were born with...But those are two different notions- If white people are born racist, why would they need power to be racist? Let’s examine...

 

Conclusion to issue #1

First of all, if, in order to be racist you must have power, what about in predominantly Asian countries, or Middle Eastern countries, or South American countries? Is a white person, who travels to those countries,” all of a sudden not racist because his race might not be the majority, or not in a position to have power? Furthermore, does that make those majority races racist because they have the power in those regions? And does this, in turn, show that racism and power are two mutually exclusive concepts that may or may not be connected in any given situation?
 

Conclusion to issue #2

Second of all, we all have an ego, which serves to protect the interests of the “self”...therefore, are we ALL not naturally hesitant and unsure of those things/people that seem unfamiliar or different to us, for the sake of self preservation?  Does this mean that we are ALL biologically hardwired to be racist?
 

Feel free to discuss...

Anyone can be racist. It’s a really diverse thing.* 

 

 

*See what I did there? 

5 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

  Does this mean that we are ALL biologically hardwired to be racist?
 

Feel free to discuss...

Seems we are all hard wired to not immediately trust someone who is outside our “group” however you define group. Yet we are also hardwired to cooperate. Both are survival mechanism we inheriated from our ancestors. I guess culture, learning and society take it from there 

[SoCal Deek]

Do humans distinguish between people based on their outward appearance?  Yes they do and always will. None of that makes anyone racist. It makes us ALL human.

[TSOL]

I think the outcry of racism is another one of the .001%'s tools to keep the masses divided, which plays into the power brokers grip on society. 

 

If we were united, us regular folks could get a much bigger piece of pie.

 

I don't think the average American is nearly as racist as the screens will lead you to believe. 

[Motorin']

Racism is more than one thing. The OP's question pertains to two different forms of racism without distinguishing them.

 

It seems obvious that a black person can hold racist thoughts about white people and engage in interpersonal racism in their behavior. 

 

When people have said "only white people can be racist" they are talking about structural racism in America. Structural racism being the establishment of laws and social structures implemented to benefit white people.

 

Imo, white people can benefit from structural racism without holding any racist views perosonaly. And if they didn't enact the structurally racist systems that benefit them, and if they are unaware of the existance of those structures, it's hard to say there are racist.

 

But the staying power of structural racism has been made possible through the denial of the existance of racism. Often that denial is pertaining to personally held racist beliefs, not the actual structures of law, economic and social infrastructure. So it is convenient if you've benefited from racist structures if you don't believe they exist. 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Motorin'

[Beach]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

Racism is more than one thing. The OP's question pertains to two different forms of racism without distinguishing them.

 

It seems obvious that a black person can hold racist thoughts about white people and engage in interpersonal racism in their behavior. 

 

When people have said "only white people can be racist" they are talking about structural racism in America. Structural racism being the establishment of laws and social structures implemented to benefit white people.

 

Imo, white people can benefit from structural racism without holding any racist views perosonaly. And if they didn't enact the structurally racist systems that benefit them, and if they are unaware of the existance of those structures, it's hard to say there are racist.

 

But the staying power of structural racism has been made possible through the denial of the existance of racism. Often that denial is pertaining to personally held racist beliefs, not the actual structures of law, economic and social infrastructure. So it is convenient if you've benefited from racist structures if you don't believe they exist. 

 

 

are you saying there are current "establishment of laws and social structures implemented to benefit white people."?

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Beach said:

are you saying there are current "establishment of laws and social structures implemented to benefit white people."?

 

There are definitely remnants that still function towards that end despite much reform. And in areas that have been reformed, there have been long lags between the the changes on paper and change in practice. And in the areas that have been changed in practice, there are still many debts owed to make up for the blatant discrimination. 

 

I don't deny that  a ton of progress has been made, and that the structure of our society is much less racist than it once was. 

 

I'm happy to talk specifics and get into objective measures. Though my experience has show that there is a deep unwillingness to accept the possibility for their still to be racism or any meaningful discrimination to make amends for. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Motorin'

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Beach said:

are you saying there are current "establishment of laws and social structures implemented to benefit white people."?

Which laws and social structures ...specifically? Enough with the generalities. 

[Motorin']

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Which laws and social structures ...specifically? Enough with the generalities. 

 

That does not come off as someone who wants to have an open discussion on the topic.