India Walton

[Doc Brown]

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

And not on the ballot because the deadline passed before the centrist faced-off against the marxist, and lost, weeks later?

The law seems silly on its face but Byron knew the law.  I have mixed feelings about it tbh.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

The law seems silly on its face but Byron knew the law.  I have mixed feelings about it tbh.

 

Unless he's psychic...

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Unless he's psychic...

I meant he should've taken the democratic primary a bit more seriously knowing he couldn't later file as an Independent.  The state basically created its own sore loser law.

[Buffalo716]

I see a good amount of write in Byron Brown signs around the city 

[Doc]

10 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I meant he should've taken the democratic primary a bit more seriously knowing he couldn't later file as an Independent.  The state basically created its own sore loser law.

 

I did not follow that situation at all so I don't know if him not taking it more seriously was the issue.  It just seems dumb to have the deadline before a candidate can be chose for either party (I'm assuming it's the same for Repubs) because no one knows who will win.  Did Walton register as another party before the deadline?

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 9/7/2021 at 5:04 PM, Doc said:

Why?  Because she's not connected like he is?  Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  But on the face of it, to have a May 28th deadline when the Dem primary is in June is dumb.

 

Yes, not being connected, which also ties directly into her political philosophy.

 

On 9/7/2021 at 5:50 PM, snafu said:

(1) Castro wasn't a dictator in 1950.  He was trying to get into the machine but the machine changed the rules.  Sound familiar?  He BECAME a dictator after he came into power in order to consolidate and retain his power.  The comparison isn't comically laughable -- it is the logical extension (or the execution of) what starts out to be laudable goals in theory.  It's  nice to have the lofty goals she lists in her website.  But when the policy needs to be implemented, the hand gets heavier and heavier.  You want a different comparison, let's go with Evo Morales, or any of the "pink tide" leftist leaders in South America.

 

(2) the closest I can see in her policy statements is WRT housing and canceling rent and holding landlords accountable because of her declaration that housing is a right.  Sure it is a right.  But if you don't OWN your housing, then you need to RENT your housing.  For money.  Or go live with your parents forever.  To take (or even to diminish) the property rights of one class of people in order to distribute the fruits of those rights to another class of people is pretty damn "command economy/socialist".  If she wants to limit herself to holding Landlords accountable for substandard living conditions, then yes, sure, whatever.  If she will eventually tell Landlords that they can't set the market -- which is the direction she's heading -- then what do you call it?  And, hey, why limit this to renters?  Why not have any single family homeowner paying a mortgage get their debt canceled?

 

(3) You're sounding like a January 6 conspiracist.  I think you and I agree on the sh***y nature of party electoral gameplay.

 

(4) Looks like we agree on my "time will tell" answer.

 

(5) Can't be scaled up.  If someone wants to live in a commune, then there's plenty of places to go.  That should be a personal election, not imposed upon people who don't choose to live collectively.  And I'd add that for India Walton to believe for a second that just because Byron Brown lost focus in the primary doesn't mean that she's got a mandate or ANY broad public support to implement her platform.  Her level of support, Citywide, from the potential constituents that she would be working for is miniscule.

 

1. This is getting silly. Fidel Castro, like authoritarian leaders from all political orientations throughout recorded history, demonstrated serious anti-social behavior and a propensity for criminal violence years before obtaining power. India Walton has no such background. Furthermore, Castro had the power of the military to enforce his policies. A Buffalo mayor will not. Any attempt to prove that democratic socialism inevitably leads to far-left authoritarianism falls apart when Latin American politics are invoked. You simply CANNOT decouple their politics from the influence of American imperialism or from a whole list of other cultural, geographic, and economic factors (including Chinese mercantilism!). The common themes of violence and corruption in Latin American government transcend the left-right paradigm. For every Evo Morales mentioned, I can counter with a Pinochet. A lot of the pink tide politicians did great things, too, along with some less than great things. I think I’ll take a Lula any day over the social democrat lineup we have in American politics…

 

2. The argument in favor of public housing options is as much the position of a typical American liberal as it is that of a socialist. That has been my point. The unique “cancel rent” movement is in the context of COVID-19, where the government forced people to not be able to work. Consequently, the government should have been fully responsible for financially compensating the people for not working. Landlords and homeowners definitely SHOULD have the same pandemic protections as tenants. Otherwise, banks and super wealthy people can just come in and buy up all the financially delinquent properties. And of course that was the desired outcome all along, but I digress… Also, I have no problem with rent control measures in certain scenarios, but that’s yet another topic that I don’t want to get into right now…

 

3. I’m not a January 6 conspiracist. Trump’s argument was blown out in the courts. For the time being, that is good enough evidence for me.

 

4. Yes, we do.

 

5. You’re talking about communes now, while I’m focused specifically on worker cooperatives i.e. different ways individual businesses can organize their leadership and ownership structures. Otherwise, we’re not really in disagreement here. In the unlikely event India Walton wins, I agree that she wouldn’t have a mandate for massive socialism impositions. You are engaging in McCarthyite fearmongering here, however, because the office of the mayor is quite limited in the extent that business systems can be imposed whereby “workers own the means of production.”

 

On 9/7/2021 at 9:47 PM, Doc Brown said:

That’s a really good point.  She’d be laughed out of the room.
 

In a way though wouldn’t it be better for the progressive movement as a whole to show it can beat a more centrist candidate in a general election without the excuse of that person losing only because the centrist candidate’s name wasn’t on the ballot?

 

Sure, of course. But a more interesting question: is it better to win with an asterisk** or lose with grace? To me, that answer depends heavily on India Walton’s (currently unknown) level of professional competence.

 

**- insert Bill Belichick joke here.

[Doc]

46 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

Yes, not being connected, which also ties directly into her political philosophy.

 

And if she were to become mayor, she wouldn't use connections?  Right.

[snafu]

2 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Yes, not being connected, which also ties directly into her political philosophy.

 

 

1. This is getting silly. Fidel Castro, like authoritarian leaders from all political orientations throughout recorded history, demonstrated serious anti-social behavior and a propensity for criminal violence years before obtaining power. India Walton has no such background. Furthermore, Castro had the power of the military to enforce his policies. A Buffalo mayor will not. Any attempt to prove that democratic socialism inevitably leads to far-left authoritarianism falls apart when Latin American politics are invoked. You simply CANNOT decouple their politics from the influence of American imperialism or from a whole list of other cultural, geographic, and economic factors (including Chinese mercantilism!). The common themes of violence and corruption in Latin American government transcend the left-right paradigm. For every Evo Morales mentioned, I can counter with a Pinochet. A lot of the pink tide politicians did great things, too, along with some less than great things. I think I’ll take a Lula any day over the social democrat lineup we have in American politics…

 

2. The argument in favor of public housing options is as much the position of a typical American liberal as it is that of a socialist. That has been my point. The unique “cancel rent” movement is in the context of COVID-19, where the government forced people to not be able to work. Consequently, the government should have been fully responsible for financially compensating the people for not working. Landlords and homeowners definitely SHOULD have the same pandemic protections as tenants. Otherwise, banks and super wealthy people can just come in and buy up all the financially delinquent properties. And of course that was the desired outcome all along, but I digress… Also, I have no problem with rent control measures in certain scenarios, but that’s yet another topic that I don’t want to get into right now…

 

3. I’m not a January 6 conspiracist. Trump’s argument was blown out in the courts. For the time being, that is good enough evidence for me.

 

4. Yes, we do.

 

5. You’re talking about communes now, while I’m focused specifically on worker cooperatives i.e. different ways individual businesses can organize their leadership and ownership structures. Otherwise, we’re not really in disagreement here. In the unlikely event India Walton wins, I agree that she wouldn’t have a mandate for massive socialism impositions. You are engaging in McCarthyite fearmongering here, however, because the office of the mayor is quite limited in the extent that business systems can be imposed whereby “workers own the means of production.”

 

 

Sure, of course. But a more interesting question: is it better to win with an asterisk** or lose with grace? To me, that answer depends heavily on India Walton’s (currently unknown) level of professional competence.

 

**- insert Bill Belichick joke here.

1. Castro is just as much a logical extension as any other long-term Marxist leader. People lose their freedoms. And please don’t ask for suggestions just to qualify any suggestion made with excuses like American Imperialism — especially in South America where American influence barely exists over the decades that include the Pink Tide years.  I never implied that India Walton was going to start a military uprising.  I said that one a Socialist come in then the manner of implementing policies becomes necessarily more and more draconian.  Why have a dialogue if you’re going to focus on Castro’s violence.  You asked for a specific time period.  I specifically said Castro in his earliest of years — before any revolution or violence followed.  Everyone starts small, Kay.  Then when you didn’t like that example, I switched to Evo Morales.  You said he “did some good things”. Well there’s a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one. And then you trotted out Military Dictator, Pinochet. 
 

2. Public housing is an available option.  I never said to abolish it.  Again, you asked for an example.  Public housing should be improved to the point where the government has enough credibility to tell any private property owner what to do or how to set a market.  You didn’t address the mayoral candidate’s desired result of altering a free market other than to peripherally say that you support rent control.  You asked for an example of a socialist policy and I gave you one.  There’s a whole entire ton of housing topics and you stretched the conversation to touch on some of them. But you avoided this one. 

3. I didn’t call you a 1/6 conspiracist.  I was just pointing out the similarities in the 2020 election to this here mayoral race.  You were grinding your gears about the tricks being played, and I was agreeing with you.  Others think there was some shady stuff that happened in 2020 — and they sound a lot like you.  You say the Federal Court decision is probably tainted by a judge who had a preferred outcome, and then hide behind courts to defend the 2020 results.  For the record, I believe that Trump lost all on his own. 
 

4. That’s nice.

 

5. If workers want to privately collect themselves to run a business or a million businesses, then that’s great.  Why should the government be involved? We were talking and actually agreeing that Socialism can not be scaled up to fit any large model.  And, Kay, I’m not engaging in fearmongering here. And since we primarily agree on this point, if I’m fearmongering then where does that leave you?  You would not have asked Q:4 if you didn’t have a notion that any small city success will be used as a catalyst for the growth of your preferred political governing style.  Why else would all the national news have reported on this but to hold Buffalo up as the example of a city that supports a Socialist — when it really looks like that’s nowhere near the truth.  I’m not fearmongering, I just don’t agree with this governing theory and I’m trying to point out my reasons why.

Kay, it looks like we primarily agree on 3 of 5 of your questions.  You haven’t acknowledged my Q:2 policy example yet, and we seem to disagree on your Q:1.  Not bad!

 

 

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, snafu said:

1. Castro is just as much a logical extension as any other long-term Marxist leader. People lose their freedoms. And please don’t ask for suggestions just to qualify any suggestion made with excuses like American Imperialism — especially in South America where American influence barely exists over the decades that include the Pink Tide years.  I never implied that India Walton was going to start a military uprising.  I said that one a Socialist come in then the manner of implementing policies becomes necessarily more and more draconian.  Why have a dialogue if you’re going to focus on Castro’s violence.  You asked for a specific time period.  I specifically said Castro in his earliest of years — before any revolution or violence followed.  Everyone starts small, Kay.  Then when you didn’t like that example, I switched to Evo Morales.  You said he “did some good things”. Well there’s a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one. And then you trotted out Military Dictator, Pinochet. 
 

2. Public housing is an available option.  I never said to abolish it.  Again, you asked for an example.  Public housing should be improved to the point where the government has enough credibility to tell any private property owner what to do or how to set a market.  You didn’t address the mayoral candidate’s desired result of altering a free market other than to peripherally say that you support rent control.  You asked for an example of a socialist policy and I gave you one.  There’s a whole entire ton of housing topics and you stretched the conversation to touch on some of them. But you avoided this one. 

3. I didn’t call you a 1/6 conspiracist.  I was just pointing out the similarities in the 2020 election to this here mayoral race.  You were grinding your gears about the tricks being played, and I was agreeing with you.  Others think there was some shady stuff that happened in 2020 — and they sound a lot like you.  You say the Federal Court decision is probably tainted by a judge who had a preferred outcome, and then hide behind courts to defend the 2020 results.  For the record, I believe that Trump lost all on his own. 
 

4. That’s nice.

 

5. If workers want to privately collect themselves to run a business or a million businesses, then that’s great.  Why should the government be involved? We were talking and actually agreeing that Socialism can not be scaled up to fit any large model.  And, Kay, I’m not engaging in fearmongering here. And since we primarily agree on this point, if I’m fearmongering then where does that leave you?  You would not have asked Q:4 if you didn’t have a notion that any small city success will be used as a catalyst for the growth of your preferred political governing style.  Why else would all the national news have reported on this but to hold Buffalo up as the example of a city that supports a Socialist — when it really looks like that’s nowhere near the truth.  I’m not fearmongering, I just don’t agree with this governing theory and I’m trying to point out my reasons why.

Kay, it looks like we primarily agree on 3 of 5 of your questions.  You haven’t acknowledged my Q:2 policy example yet, and we seem to disagree on your Q:1.  Not bad!

 

 

That's silly. Heck, the "Marxists" were not even following Marx, they really followed the authoritarian leaders they replaced. Democracy is here to stay and just because someone calls themselves socialist here in no way means they will be like Communist Russia 

 

Now the racists on the other hand. Look at the damage they have done! 

[ComradeKayAdams]

3 hours ago, snafu said:

1. Castro is just as much a logical extension as any other long-term Marxist leader. People lose their freedoms. And please don’t ask for suggestions just to qualify any suggestion made with excuses like American Imperialism — especially in South America where American influence barely exists over the decades that include the Pink Tide years.  I never implied that India Walton was going to start a military uprising.  I said that one a Socialist come in then the manner of implementing policies becomes necessarily more and more draconian.  Why have a dialogue if you’re going to focus on Castro’s violence.  You asked for a specific time period.  I specifically said Castro in his earliest of years — before any revolution or violence followed.  Everyone starts small, Kay.  Then when you didn’t like that example, I switched to Evo Morales.  You said he “did some good things”. Well there’s a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one. And then you trotted out Military Dictator, Pinochet. 
 

2. Public housing is an available option.  I never said to abolish it.  Again, you asked for an example.  Public housing should be improved to the point where the government has enough credibility to tell any private property owner what to do or how to set a market.  You didn’t address the mayoral candidate’s desired result of altering a free market other than to peripherally say that you support rent control.  You asked for an example of a socialist policy and I gave you one.  There’s a whole entire ton of housing topics and you stretched the conversation to touch on some of them. But you avoided this one. 

3. I didn’t call you a 1/6 conspiracist.  I was just pointing out the similarities in the 2020 election to this here mayoral race.  You were grinding your gears about the tricks being played, and I was agreeing with you.  Others think there was some shady stuff that happened in 2020 — and they sound a lot like you.  You say the Federal Court decision is probably tainted by a judge who had a preferred outcome, and then hide behind courts to defend the 2020 results.  For the record, I believe that Trump lost all on his own. 
 

4. That’s nice.

 

5. If workers want to privately collect themselves to run a business or a million businesses, then that’s great.  Why should the government be involved? We were talking and actually agreeing that Socialism can not be scaled up to fit any large model.  And, Kay, I’m not engaging in fearmongering here. And since we primarily agree on this point, if I’m fearmongering then where does that leave you?  You would not have asked Q:4 if you didn’t have a notion that any small city success will be used as a catalyst for the growth of your preferred political governing style.  Why else would all the national news have reported on this but to hold Buffalo up as the example of a city that supports a Socialist — when it really looks like that’s nowhere near the truth.  I’m not fearmongering, I just don’t agree with this governing theory and I’m trying to point out my reasons why.

Kay, it looks like we primarily agree on 3 of 5 of your questions.  You haven’t acknowledged my Q:2 policy example yet, and we seem to disagree on your Q:1.  Not bad!

 

1. Oh, American imperialism was very much an ever-present force during the Pink Tide! We can do a full country-by-country breakdown if you’d like lol. Here at PPP, I’ve already done it for Cuba and Venezuela. It may have receded relative to the second half of the twentieth century, but the LEGACY of American imperialism in Latin America persisted too and is what catalyzed all the internal revolutions against neoliberalism. Plus, Chinese mercantilism came in to fill whatever imperialist void the United States left. The theme of Latin American politics is that corruption, violence, and authoritarianism exist on both the socialist left and the U.S.-sponsored neoliberal right. Why do Latin American socialists tend to get violent? Maybe for the reasons you cite. Maybe also because violence is the only remaining power that the poor have when they have no other resources and are up against U.S.-backed corporate oligarchs funded to undermine their democratic elections. There are no good actors in this political play. You can’t extract honest lessons on socialism governance from the rest of the mess that is Latin American politics. Sorry, but you just can’t (in my opinion).

 

2. All I’m saying is that India Walton’s public housing policies aren’t DISTINCTLY socialist. American liberalism routinely allows for government interventions into free market forces that guide landlord-tenant relationships. Now is that a good thing? Sort of…I apologize for not wanting to jump into what would be a long economics debate right now lol, that’s all. If you’re specifically referring to the extended COVID-19 “cancel rent” policy, then yes we agree that it is a bad one because it’s one-sided. A good policy would incorporate equal protections to both prevent mass homelessness and protect the landlords who are victims too. Without any such government interventions, landlords can kick out all the freeloading squatters but then what is the market demand status of their replacements?? Basically, I just disagree that a generalized, non-pandemic-related “cancel rent” policy whereby landlords are ordinarily forced to allow tenants to live in their houses for free is a part of democratic socialism. DSA types believe in options for housing co-ops, more aggressive rent controls, strengthened tenant rights, things of that nature…which often have a lot of overlap with what more establishment Democrats espouse.

 

3. It’s a difference of scale, spotlight, and circumstances. Do I think Judge Sinatra was compromised? I don’t know. I have no proof and I don’t even necessarily disagree with his ruling. I’m mostly just pointing out an appearance of impropriety that would have generated much more of a media uproar if the roles were reversed. An awful lot of highly coordinated corruption would have had to occur in order to take down Trump last November. Maybe it did, but significant claims require significant evidence.

 

4. Yes, it is indeed quite lovely, isn’t it?

 

5. This ties in with point #1 above. You seem very confident that democratic socialism eventually leads to far-left authoritarianism, based heavily on Latin American politics. I’m MUCH less confident on that point, but you can have the “argument win” if you’d like! My main problem is with the people who argue that European-style social democracy eventually leads to far-left authoritarianism…people who argue that universal health care is a slippery slope to the gulags. PLEASE tell me you aren’t one of those types. I’m already so triggered thinking about you typing “yes, Kay, in fact I am.” I’m supposed to be working on a report at work today, and now I can’t focus because of all the emotional turbulence you have induced in me hehehe…

 

EDIT: Corrected a couple spelling mistakes.

Edited September 9, 2021 by ComradeKayAdams

[snafu]

3 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

My main problem is with the people who argue that European-style social democracy eventually leads to far-left authoritarianism…people who argue that universal health care is a slippery slope to the gulags. PLEASE tell me you aren’t one of those types. I’m already so triggered thinking about you typing “yes, Kay, in fact I am.” I’m supposed to be working on a report at work today, and now I can’t focus because of all the emotional turbulence you have induced in me hehehe…

 

Nah, that's not me.

 

 

[Wacka]

She's a commie.

[Buffarukus]

On 9/7/2021 at 12:38 AM, Doc Brown said:

Buffalo isn't NYC and you're talking pure hypotheticals.  We've gained in population over the last decade.  We weren't the epicenter of the initial Covid outbreak in the US.  The Covid restrictions put in place and currently in place here don't differ much from most of the country.  Same goes for vaccine mandates from employers.  Teachers aren't required to be vaccinated.  You also seem to be in your own bubble on how you view the public at large.  Public opinion is pretty split on whether the government is doing too much, the right amount, or too little when it comes to handling Covid.

 

Quote

i specifically said NYC. buffalo is a part of the state. with a flick of the wrist the govenor can make it statewide and mandates have been in descussions federally for a long time. this deep into the pandemic and you think if mandates arent happening right here and now that cannot quickly change. buffalo will not be ordered to adopt a sudo lockdown for the unvaxed that NYC has? 

 

that didnt take long. 

[Doc Brown]

32 minutes ago, Buffarukus said:

that didnt take long. 

Show me where I said it can't quickly change?  Find another straw man. 

 

 

 

 

[Buffarukus]

47 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Show me where I said it can't quickly change?  Find another straw man. 

 

 

 

 

 

straw man? you were saying thats there, not here. me suggesting it could quickly change was "hypotheticals". hypotheticals that instantly became closer to reality.

 

whatever that wasn't the basis of the topic just a side point but i think its about time people understand that there will be nothing about going back to "normal" to get comfortable with. you seem to suggest if its not here then its not worth talking about. is it ok to say they are already identifying variants and suggesting it is vax resistant. just as quickly this can be full blown lockdown again and maybe far worse. people already conditioned to blame the "unvaxed" can be the scapegoats to why vaxes no longer work

 

this isnt a i win the debate. its a wow that was fast and we better get prepared if it goes further just as quickly.

 

dont be so defensive.

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Buffarukus

[Buffalo716]

Write Down Byron Brown!

[SectionC3]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:34 AM, Doc said:

 

I did not follow that situation at all so I don't know if him not taking it more seriously was the issue.  It just seems dumb to have the deadline before a candidate can be chose for either party (I'm assuming it's the same for Repubs) because no one knows who will win.  Did Walton register as another party before the deadline?

 

Nope.  Otherwise she wouldn’t have been able to run in the Democratic primary. (Absent help from the county committee, which never would have materialized.)

[Buffalo716]

To aid in the write in... Byron Browns campaign has purchased 10000+ stamps with his name on it ... And handed them out to supporters so you can stamp in his name  

 

Terribly spelled named will not be accepted

[B-Man]

27 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

To aid in the write in... Byron Browns campaign has purchased 10000+ stamps with his name on it ... And handed them out to supporters so you can stamp in his name  

 

Terribly spelled named will not be accepted

 

If you can't spell Byron Brown you shouldn't be allowed to vote.......

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

If you can't spell Byron Brown you shouldn't be allowed to vote.......

This is the inner city of Buffalo we're talking about

 

Probably alot of Birons on the ballot... Hope they allow that 😝