India Walton

[Markaf431]

29 minutes ago, Wacka said:

The judge said if someone writes in Brown now, the write in vote won't count. With the signs I saw for Brown in SOUTH BUFFALO (basically every lawn)  he will win. People don't want a communist light (socialist) as mayor.

so small thing for me. Just watched the Labor Day parade in south Buffalo. Found it funny that Mayor Brown was walking with his supporters and waving. Walton had like 4-5 cars groups of people and she was sitting in a convertible mustang with two very obvious security guards (one on each side) walking next to the car. I’m not saying Brown didn’t have security (I’m sure he did), but to me those optics scream I’m better than walking with my supporters. 

[Doc Brown]

15 hours ago, Buffarukus said:

 

i understand what your saying tactically.

That's all that really matters at this point.  Look at the zip code breakdown in the city of Buffalo for those that voted Democrat and Republican in this last election.  Most voted for Biden above an 80% clip.  You have to go to South Buffalo just to find areas that Biden didn't win by more than 10 points.  You're incredibly naive not to think the only person that can beat Walton is known as a moderate democrat.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-election-map.html

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Doc Brown

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Markaf431 said:

so small thing for me. Just watched the Labor Day parade in south Buffalo. Found it funny that Mayor Brown was walking with his supporters and waving. Walton had like 4-5 cars groups of people and she was sitting in a convertible mustang with two very obvious security guards (one on each side) walking next to the car. I’m not saying Brown didn’t have security (I’m sure he did), but to me those optics scream I’m better than walking with my supporters. 

 

Or she's in fear for her life.  Although doesn't/wouldn't/shouldn't she support de-funding the police?

[Doc Brown]

Just now, Doc said:

 

Or she's in fear for her life.  Although doesn't/wouldn't/shouldn't she support de-funding the police?

Those are mental health counselors.  How about maybe increase funding to provide training for police officers to how to deal with a call where a mentally ill person is involved?

[Doc]

Just now, Doc Brown said:

Those are mental health counselors.  How about maybe increase funding to provide training for police officers to how to deal with a call where a mentally ill person is involved?

 

Considering it takes years of undergrad and grad courses to become just a psychologist...

[Buffarukus]

38 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

That's all that really matters at this point.  Look at the zip code breakdown in the city of Buffalo for those that voted Democrat and Republican in this last election.  Most voted for Biden above an 80% clip.  You have to go to South Buffalo just to find areas that Biden didn't win by more than 10 points.  You're incredibly naive not to think the only person that can beat Walton is known as a moderate democrat.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-election-map.html

 

 

 

yeah i understand but its not naive to say that the only choices that could win are democrat and democrat light. i dont think any major city will necessarily vote red that is entrenched in blue as its the polar opposite of what they are but a left leaning libertarian, a independent that is a mix taking the good of each side and tossing the controversial topics. new york was won by republican in the past. they just elected a mayor that supports law enforcement as both the mayor and gov were "giving the people what they want" and advocating defunding ect. democrats won georgia when all polling said they only had a chance to win one but NO WAY 2 seats. 

 

the rules of the game have changed since covid for the examples i stated. it will only get worse if peoples only choice for a change is just a far more radical version of what hasn't been working. both sides sliding farther from anything that could be considered compromising. true alternatives may lose and i may be naive but you have 100% of losing a race you never run in. 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Buffarukus

[Doc Brown]

4 minutes ago, Buffarukus said:

 

yeah i understand but its not naive to say that the only choices that could win are democrat and democrat light. i dont think any major city will necessarily vote red that is entrenched in blue as its the polar opposite of what they are but a left leaning libertarian, a independent that is a mix taking the good of each side and tossing the controversial topics. new york was won by republican in the past. they elected a mayor that supports law enforcement as both the mayor and gov both were "giving the people what they want" and advocating defunding ect. democrats won georgia when all polling said they would only had a chance to win one but NO WAY 2 seats. 

 

the rules of the game have changed since covid for the examples i stated. it will only get worse if peoples only choice for a change is just a far more radical version of what hasn't been working. noth sides sliding farther from anything that could be considered compromising. true alternatives may lose and i may be naive but you have 100% of losing a race you never run in.

This isn't the mid 90's and even then Guiliani leaned left on social issues (gun control, affirmative action, gay rights, etc.).  Crime is up but nowhere near where it was then.  If we were still in strict lockdown then it's possible a more conservative candidate that leaned left on social issues could win.  I just don't see it at this point though.  Georgia was unique in that Trump kept conservatives home because he convinced enough people that the results couldn't be trusted.

[Buffarukus]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

This isn't the mid 90's and even then Guiliani leaned left on social issues (gun control, affirmative action, gay rights, etc.).  Crime is up but nowhere near where it was then.  If we were still in strict lockdown then it's possible a more conservative candidate that leaned left on social issues could win.  I just don't see it at this point though.  Georgia was unique in that Trump kept conservatives home because he convinced enough people that the results couldn't be trusted.

 

"If we were still in strict lockdown then it's possible a more conservative candidate that leaned left on social issues could win"

 

ive explained how certain people (the unvaxed) are being put on a strict lockdown and liberals seem to be inching further in that direction. if your a dem, and your official is saying you cant travel, go out, put your children in school, work, service customers ect ect ect then i dont care what your political side is..you will not vote that direction. its happening in NYC so there is a large portion of people that are not republican in any way that would vote for somthing THAT IS NOT THAT. thats a door wide open for "outsiders" to step in. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Buffarukus

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, Buffarukus said:

 

"If we were still in strict lockdown then it's possible a more conservative candidate that leaned left on social issues could win"

 

ive explained how certain people (the unvaxed) are being put on a strict lockdown and liberals seem to be inching further in that direction. if your a dem, and your official is saying you cant travel, go out, put your children in school, work, service customers ect ect ect then i dont care what your political side is..you will not vote that direction. its happening in NYC so there is a large portion of people that are not republican in any way that would vote for somthing THAT IS NOT THAT. thats a door wide open for "outsiders" to step in. 

That's not happening in Buffalo.  School is full in person learning starting this Wednesday.  You can go basically wherever you want without a mask.  The Bills game won't require proof of vaccination.  WTF are you talking about?

Edited September 7, 2021 by Doc Brown

[Buffarukus]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

That's not happening in Buffalo.  School is full in person learning starting this Wednesday.  You can go basically wherever you want without a mask.  The Bills game won't require proof of vaccination.  WTF are you talking about?

 

i specifically said NYC. buffalo is a part of the state. with a flick of the wrist the govenor can make it statewide and mandates have been in descussions federally for a long time. this deep into the pandemic and you think if mandates arent happening right here and now that cannot quickly change. buffalo will not be ordered to adopt a sudo lockdown for the unvaxed that NYC has? 

 

so 56% of NY city is fully vaccinated. 64% is one dose. the rest are subject to what i said... excluded from many things in society and at risk of losing their jobs depending if they are state workers, and probably VERY interested in voting for some one else. seeing as some of the 64% are also subject and being fully doesnt mean you nec agree with the mandates, that's enough to flip a election my friend. seeing as its happening in cali before a election is even scheduled shows they arent fing around with this stuff.

 

side note. NO MEDICAL EXEMPTIONS at this time from what I'm aware. have a med reason you can't get vaxed..oh well, you can watch through the window with the rest of the uncomplaint. 

 

side note #2. austrailia is building camps for the unvaxed that wont be finished until 2022. they seem to be fully expecting the unvaxed scourge to be problematic well into the future..and they are preping now to deal with it 🤔

 

teachers unions are fighting against it. hospital workers are fighting against it. 1 poke does not cut it for them. buisnesses that have scrapped by have to ask for papers or turn away customers. fines are being given. but not in buffalo, right now. if it did and a R was on the ticket for for mayor saying no to all of this, id say its foolosh to count them out.

 

by the way this discussion isn't based soley on liberals and lockdowns. just as many independents could see the lack of mandates in florida ect as putting the public at risk and be open to voting thier leaders out. seeing as florida is gaining population while NY is losing it i think its more likely people prefer freedom of choice on this subject though.

 

if you need links to anything ive said let me know. 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Buffarukus

[Boatdrinks]

9 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Those are mental health counselors.  How about maybe increase funding to provide training for police officers to how to deal with a call where a mentally ill person is involved?

They’d argue all of ‘em are “ mentally ill”. That’s what the attorneys do. 

[Doc Brown]

25 minutes ago, Buffarukus said:

 

i specifically said NYC. buffalo is a part of the state. with a flick of the wrist the govenor can make it statewide and mandates have been in descussions federally for a long time. this deep into the pandemic and you think if mandates arent happening right here and now that cannot quickly change. buffalo will not be ordered to adopt a sudo lockdown for the unvaxed that NYC has? 

 

so 56% of NY city is fully vaccinated. 64% is one dose. the rest are subject to what i said... excluded from many things in society and at risk of losing their jobs depending if they are state workers, and probably VERY interested in voting for some one else. seeing as some of the 64% are also subject and being fully doesnt mean you nec agree with the mandates, that's enough to flip a election my friend.

 

side note. NO MEDICAL EXEMPTIONS at this time from what I'm aware. have a med reason you can't get vaxed..oh well, you can watch through the window with the rest of the uncomplaint. 

 

side note #2. austrailia is building camps for the unvaxed that wont be finished until 2022. they seem to be fully expecting the unvaxed scourge to be problematic well into the future..and they are preping now to deal with it 🤔

 

teachers unions are fighting against it. hospital workers are fighting against it. 1 poke does not cut it for them. buisnesses that have scrapped by have to ask for papers or turn away customers. fines are being given. but not in buffalo, right now. if it did and a R was on the ticket for for mayor saying no to all of this, id say its foolosh to count them out.

 

by the way this discussion isn't based soley on liberals and lockdowns. just as many independents could see the lack of mandates in florida ect as putting the public at risk and be open to voting thier leaders out. seeing as florida is gaining population while NY is losing it i think its more likely people prefer freedom of choice on this subject though.

Buffalo isn't NYC and you're talking pure hypotheticals.  We've gained in population over the last decade.  We weren't the epicenter of the initial Covid outbreak in the US.  The Covid restrictions put in place and currently in place here don't differ much from most of the country.  Same goes for vaccine mandates from employers.  Teachers aren't required to be vaccinated.  You also seem to be in your own bubble on how you view the public at large.  Public opinion is pretty split on whether the government is doing too much, the right amount, or too little when it comes to handling Covid.

[Boatdrinks]

4 hours ago, Buffarukus said:

 

"If we were still in strict lockdown then it's possible a more conservative candidate that leaned left on social issues could win"

 

ive explained how certain people (the unvaxed) are being put on a strict lockdown and liberals seem to be inching further in that direction. if your a dem, and your official is saying you cant travel, go out, put your children in school, work, service customers ect ect ect then i dont care what your political side is..you will not vote that direction. its happening in NYC so there is a large portion of people that are not republican in any way that would vote for somthing THAT IS NOT THAT. thats a door wide open for "outsiders" to step in. 

I’d like to believe that, but all the evidence tells me that most  people in this area aren’t smart. They vote for dogma over themselves. Freedom is too scary to them. They prefer that they ( and everyone else) be TOLD what they must do. 

[Buffarukus]

46 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Buffalo isn't NYC and you're talking pure hypotheticals.  We've gained in population over the last decade.  We weren't the epicenter of the initial Covid outbreak in the US.  The Covid restrictions put in place and currently in place here don't differ much from most of the country.  Same goes for vaccine mandates from employers.  Teachers aren't required to be vaccinated.  You also seem to be in your own bubble on how you view the public at large.  Public opinion is pretty split on whether the government is doing too much, the right amount, or too little when it comes to handling Covid.

 

id say the percentages of the vax in NYC pops my bubble. how can anyone who is unvaxed think the gov is doing just enough or to little? that is a clear indicator that over 30% is not interested in the gov or anyone "saving" them. im pretty sure they are not happy about being punished for that decision, but i have not spoken to them. call it conjecture but im not sure why. the % that only took 1 dose even though they were told 2 will save them i can make assumptions and opinions on. so ill give you that but they to are being punished.

 

at the end of the day your saying im making alot of hypotheticals simply because as of today, right now, in buffalo, your right. removing the very recent history of what's happened and saying with any kind of certainty it won't again is optimistic. that's as far as I'd go.

 

44 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

I’d like to believe that, but all the evidence tells me that most  people in this area aren’t smart. They vote for dogma over themselves. Freedom is too scary to them. They prefer that they ( and everyone else) be TOLD what they must do. 

 

i dont know. people were told do these exact steps and everything will go back to normal. they did them and now are being told thanks for following orders now strap the mask on and continue to distance. you see all those that did not follow us, yeah act like them. i think your right but there are ALOT that have had enough and are no longer in that group, especially parents.

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Buffarukus

[SectionC3]

6 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

I’d like to believe that, but all the evidence tells me that most  people in this area aren’t smart. They vote for dogma over themselves. Freedom is too scary to them. They prefer that they ( and everyone else) be TOLD what they must do. 

You mean like the lower middle

class white guys who vote Republican?  Those are the dumb ones to me.  It takes a special kind of deluded to consistently and proudly vote against your own interests. 

16 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Or she's in fear for her life.  Although doesn't/wouldn't/shouldn't she support de-funding the police?

 

16 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

That's all that really matters at this point.  Look at the zip code breakdown in the city of Buffalo for those that voted Democrat and Republican in this last election.  Most voted for Biden above an 80% clip.  You have to go to South Buffalo just to find areas that Biden didn't win by more than 10 points.  You're incredibly naive not to think the only person that can beat Walton is known as a moderate democrat.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-election-map.html

 

 

Walton is a terrible candidate who won a primary on a protest vote.  Brown is going to run her over in the general.  Minimum four point win.  Normally I’d say a Republican could never be mayor of Buffalo.  But against India, all bets are off.  I’d gladly take Carl Paladino before her, and that’s saying something. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by SectionC3

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 9/6/2021 at 12:23 PM, snafu said:

Hi, Kay.
1. Castro circa 1950. 

2. She doesn’t self-describe in the “Who is India Walton” section of her website.  However, her endorsements label her as a socialist.  Also her site contains this interview of Walton from Jacobin Magazine (there’s a loaded title!) discussing her endorsement by the Democratic Socialists of America. They discussed Socialism and her vision quite a bit.  Not only that, but any media outlet that announced her primary win distinctly labeled her as a straight-up Socialist, and I never saw her push back on that. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/05/india-walton-interview-buffalo-mayor-race-democratic-primary?fbclid=IwAR2GeLuz8_ra-dCgQ60umzdCm27DDHT7w6LTnaEsEWQFion8kcc2x-4IM1M

 

3. I haven’t read Sinatra’s decision and I don’t know who his brother is.  I will say that the decision, coupled with the past recent news that the City Council is thinking of banishing the office of Mayor led me to my answer #1. With your question #3 are you insinuating that you see a political party setting up the apparatus to defeat a political outsider whom they see as an extremist? Hmmm, have we seen this before?

4. Time will tell. Can’t answer that yet. 

 

5. Depends on a lot of things, but I’d say, like everything Socialist and further left: good in theory, bad in practice. Time and basic human nature erodes the good idea and eventually the only way to sustain the idea is through heavy-handed regulation, to say the least. See my answer #1. 

 

Thank you, snafu, for being the only one to directly address my questions in full.

 

1. Ms. Walton is a democratic socialist. Castro was a dictator who ruled as head of a command economy. The political and economic differences between the two systems are comically enormous.

 

2. You didn’t quite answer my question here. I acknowledge Ms. Walton’s socialist identity. But what are her specific public policies that distinguish her as a socialist and not as a typical liberal? I can only count two: neighborhood-owned grocery stores and support for a public bank. But as a city mayor, she has zero power to ever implement a New York state-owned bank. So is this what the McCarthyite fearmongering is reduced to…fear of better produce options for East Side denizens??

 

3. Sinatra’s brother is a major campaign donor to Byron Brown. We are not our siblings, but it still reeks of corruption. Also, the Buffalo Common Council consists entirely of establishment Democrats. Ms. Walton’s allies aren’t the ones suggesting that the mayor’s office be abolished! And I have never denied that the Democratic Party is horribly corrupt, though political corruption isn’t unique to a particular party or political philosophy.

 

4. In my opinion, this mayoral race will probably have a negligible impact on the national stage. American politics and the progressive movement, however, are so charged and unstable right now that Buffalo could be the origins of a political “butterfly effect,” regardless of the mayoral race outcome. A lot could depend on how the media (both corporate mainstream + independent leftist) chooses to cover (or ignore) it.

 

5. We’ve seen worker cooperatives have success in a variety of limited situations around the world and throughout history. I’m most familiar with ones currently existing in Spain, Italy, and France. The question is whether they can be scaled up to the national level and across all industries? I’m not a socialist, so my best guess would be “no” for probably the same reasons you have. However…I consider myself an open-minded person and so have yet to completely give up on market socialism models, either. I’d like to see one attempted without it being sabotaged from American imperialistic forces who want to exploit the foreign labor and foreign natural resources. Also, we’ve seen more than enough from variations of laissez-faire capitalism to know that it doesn’t work for the working class (or for the environment) and inevitably devolves into crony capitalism models (see: American history: Gilded Age, Great Depression, 1980-now).

 

On 9/6/2021 at 12:32 PM, Doc said:

Is 3. even material?  Why shouldn't Brown have his name on the ballot?

 

Because he missed the state’s ballot petition deadline. On electoral substance alone, I don’t even mind the judge’s ruling. What’s galling is that we all know Ms. Walton would have not been granted the same exception if the roles of her and Brown had been reversed.

[Doc]

53 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

Because he missed the state’s ballot petition deadline. On electoral substance alone, I don’t even mind the judge’s ruling. What’s galling is that we all know Ms. Walton would have not been granted the same exception if the roles of her and Brown had been reversed.

 

Why?  Because she's not connected like he is?  Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  But on the face of it, to have a May 28th deadline when the Dem primary is in June is dumb.

[snafu]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Thank you, snafu, for being the only one to directly address my questions in full.

 

1. Ms. Walton is a democratic socialist. Castro was a dictator who ruled as head of a command economy. The political and economic differences between the two systems are comically enormous.

 

2. You didn’t quite answer my question here. I acknowledge Ms. Walton’s socialist identity. But what are her specific public policies that distinguish her as a socialist and not as a typical liberal? I can only count two: neighborhood-owned grocery stores and support for a public bank. But as a city mayor, she has zero power to ever implement a New York state-owned bank. So is this what the McCarthyite fearmongering is reduced to…fear of better produce options for East Side denizens??

 

3. Sinatra’s brother is a major campaign donor to Byron Brown. We are not our siblings, but it still reeks of corruption. Also, the Buffalo Common Council consists entirely of establishment Democrats. Ms. Walton’s allies aren’t the ones suggesting that the mayor’s office be abolished! And I have never denied that the Democratic Party is horribly corrupt, though political corruption isn’t unique to a particular party or political philosophy.

 

4. In my opinion, this mayoral race will probably have a negligible impact on the national stage. American politics and the progressive movement, however, are so charged and unstable right now that Buffalo could be the origins of a political “butterfly effect,” regardless of the mayoral race outcome. A lot could depend on how the media (both corporate mainstream + independent leftist) chooses to cover (or ignore) it.

 

5. We’ve seen worker cooperatives have success in a variety of limited situations around the world and throughout history. I’m most familiar with ones currently existing in Spain, Italy, and France. The question is whether they can be scaled up to the national level and across all industries? I’m not a socialist, so my best guess would be “no” for probably the same reasons you have. However…I consider myself an open-minded person and so have yet to completely give up on market socialism models, either. I’d like to see one attempted without it being sabotaged from American imperialistic forces who want to exploit the foreign labor and foreign natural resources. Also, we’ve seen more than enough from variations of laissez-faire capitalism to know that it doesn’t work for the working class (or for the environment) and inevitably devolves into crony capitalism models (see: American history: Gilded Age, Great Depression, 1980-now).

 

 

Because he missed the state’s ballot petition deadline. On electoral substance alone, I don’t even mind the judge’s ruling. What’s galling is that we all know Ms. Walton would have not been granted the same exception if the roles of her and Brown had been reversed.

 

(1) Castro wasn't a dictator in 1950.  He was trying to get into the machine but the machine changed the rules.  Sound familiar?  He BECAME a dictator after he came into power in order to consolidate and retain his power.  The comparison isn't comically laughable -- it is the logical extension (or the execution of) what starts out to be laudable goals in theory.  It's  nice to have the lofty goals she lists in her website.  But when the policy needs to be implemented, the hand gets heavier and heavier.  You want a different comparison, let's go with Evo Morales, or any of the "pink tide" leftist leaders in South America.

 

(2) the closest I can see in her policy statements is WRT housing and canceling rent and holding landlords accountable because of her declaration that housing is a right.  Sure it is a right.  But if you don't OWN your housing, then you need to RENT your housing.  For money.  Or go live with your parents forever.  To take (or even to diminish) the property rights of one class of people in order to distribute the fruits of those rights to another class of people is pretty damn "command economy/socialist".  If she wants to limit herself to holding Landlords accountable for substandard living conditions, then yes, sure, whatever.  If she will eventually tell Landlords that they can't set the market -- which is the direction she's heading -- then what do you call it?  And, hey, why limit this to renters?  Why not have any single family homeowner paying a mortgage get their debt canceled?

 

(3) You're sounding like a January 6 conspiracist.  I think you and I agree on the sh***y nature of party electoral gameplay.

 

(4) Looks like we agree on my "time will tell" answer.

 

(5) Can't be scaled up.  If someone wants to live in a commune, then there's plenty of places to go.  That should be a personal election, not imposed upon people who don't choose to live collectively.  And I'd add that for India Walton to believe for a second that just because Byron Brown lost focus in the primary doesn't mean that she's got a mandate or ANY broad public support to implement her platform.  Her level of support, Citywide, from the potential constituents that she would be working for is miniscule.

 

[Doc Brown]

5 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

That’s a really good point.  She’d be laughed out of the room.
 

In a way though wouldn’t it be better for the progressive movement as a whole to show it can beat a more centrist candidate in a general election without the excuse of that person losing only because the centrist candidate’s name wasn’t on the ballot?

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

That’s a really good point.  She’d be laughed out of the room.
 

In a way though wouldn’t it be better for the progressive movement as a whole to show it can beat a more centrist candidate in a general election without the excuse of that person losing only because the centrist candidate’s name wasn’t on the ballot?

 

And not on the ballot because the deadline passed before the centrist faced-off against the marxist, and lost, weeks later?