EDIT: Total cost to taxpayers? Bills select sports firm to represent ownership in building new open air stadium in OP, targeted for 2025

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

It clearly wouldn’t be a clone, and I am definitely on the side of having a roof stadium, but if MB Stadium in ATL costs 1.5 billion, that place is now costing 2+ billion in this current economy, and more for us given the need to build a roof designed for potential heavy snow. 
 

Half this board is freaking out over 1.4 billion… can’t imagine an ask for 2.4 billion. 

You can look at it from both sides.  How much did that ridiculous roof of MB(that they had all kind of problems with) add to the project?

 

...and I’d venture to guess that the suites and club level seating capacity at MB is much greater than anything that would be included in RWS replacement. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by BTB

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

Here is a really great resource for anything Bills stadium related and also anything stadium related - 

 

https://www.fieldofschemes.com/category/nfl/buffalo-bills/

 

I was furious when the initial reports of the Pegulas wanting the stadium 100% funded by the public & would be furious if it ends up being anything worse than a 50/50 split.  The community benefit (as described in tremendous detail throughout the above link) is always vastly overstated and the Pegulas would clearly benefit the most.   They own the team so that's not unreasonable but to take advantage of the team's success to bend over the WNY taxpayers is obscene particularly if the price tag is the insanely outrageous $1.5 billion and very particularly if it is an open air stadium, and yes even MORE particularly if it has to include upgrades for anything related to the dumpster fire Sabres.

 

To the point of open air vs. dome and the whole idea of home field weather advantage...what on earth are you all talking about?  We're good now but where was that advantage for almost 20 years?  Also, do you really even want the chance of weather causing havoc or maybe even being a deciding factor in a home playoff game?  I've seen the Colts game cited as an example but just look at the Ravens game last year.  No blizzard but the wind definitely hamstrung the offense.  I'd rather eliminate that altogether.  Also discounting the Colts game as an aberration is a bit weird because I'm not sure if you've noticed but Buffalo can get some pretty spectacular winter weather.  It could easily happen again.

 

I don't see the team moving but I also think that its naive to think it is 100% out of the realm of possibilities.  Yeah the Pegulas kept the team in Buffalo but if you think they care or that the NFL cares about anything other than $$$, you're delusional - both have demonstrated that.  Some have said that Austin wouldn't make sense...why not?  It's a much bigger city that's growing exponentially and could easily support an NFL team.

 

 

 

That is just the thing - I would rather see it 100% publicly financed than a significantly even split - just for my game day experience.

 

Yes - you are financially supporting a billionaire, but if you want to see what a private financed stadium deal looks like - look at the Pats.

 

He privately financed the stadium and then moved ticket prices up and up as they won - until an average price is over $255 a ticket.  He then went about renovating end zones and other areas - cutting away more cheap seats and turning it into a corporate game - it is no longer alive.

 

The higher the private financing done by the Pegula’s- the more they need to charge in either PSLs and seat costs.  People are complaining about moving downtown and losing tailgating, but if your seats cost 3 times what you pay now and you have a PSL on top - that will kill tailgating far faster - as a whole different crowd will start attending games.

 

On the other hand - if based upon the surveys - people want to keep the tailgating and the feel - then they need to keep the cost of tickets down - maybe a 1.5 times increase instead - to do that - you need to spread that cost over a bigger percentage of people and have much more public financing.

 

The stadium will not pay for itself and keeping it in OP means that even more so it will not pay for itself.  The question becomes where is the 1.4 billion coming from - is it coming from the public via taxes and other funding or is it coming from the public via higher seat prices, PSLs, and other fees?  
 

You are paying either way - just different if it is spread out across the state and the area or more impactful on the users.

[Motorin']

26 minutes ago, BTB said:

Just my 2 cents, but the training and practice facilities were not going anywhere regardless of where a new stadium was built in WNY. 

 

Wish there was a "that makes since" I on to click. 

[SCBills]

21 minutes ago, BTB said:

You can look at it from both sides.  How much did that ridiculous roof of MB(that they had all kind of problems with) add to the project?

 

...and I’d venture to guess that the suites and club level seating capacity at MB is much greater than anything that would be included in RWS replacement. 

Agreed, and it’s - admittedly - not a fair comparison as MB Stadium is in Midtown Atlanta and hosts a ton of events… I highly doubt Kanye would try to live in the new Bills Stadium.  
 

I have no idea why we wouldn’t want something like the Vikings have, but it seems everyone is dead set on open air. 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, OrtonHearsaWho said:

Here is a really great resource for anything Bills stadium related and also anything stadium related - 

 

https://www.fieldofschemes.com/category/nfl/buffalo-bills/

 

I was furious when the initial reports of the Pegulas wanting the stadium 100% funded by the public & would be furious if it ends up being anything worse than a 50/50 split.  The community benefit (as described in tremendous detail throughout the above link) is always vastly overstated and the Pegulas would clearly benefit the most.   They own the team so that's not unreasonable but to take advantage of the team's success to bend over the WNY taxpayers is obscene particularly if the price tag is the insanely outrageous $1.5 billion and very particularly if it is an open air stadium, and yes even MORE particularly if it has to include upgrades for anything related to the dumpster fire Sabres.

 

To the point of open air vs. dome and the whole idea of home field weather advantage...what on earth are you all talking about?  We're good now but where was that advantage for almost 20 years?  Also, do you really even want the chance of weather causing havoc or maybe even being a deciding factor in a home playoff game?  I've seen the Colts game cited as an example but just look at the Ravens game last year.  No blizzard but the wind definitely hamstrung the offense.  I'd rather eliminate that altogether.  Also discounting the Colts game as an aberration is a bit weird because I'm not sure if you've noticed but Buffalo can get some pretty spectacular winter weather.  It could easily happen again.

 

I don't see the team moving but I also think that its naive to think it is 100% out of the realm of possibilities.  Yeah the Pegulas kept the team in Buffalo but if you think they care or that the NFL cares about anything other than $$$, you're delusional - both have demonstrated that.  Some have said that Austin wouldn't make sense...why not?  It's a much bigger city that's growing exponentially and could easily support an NFL team.

 

Prepare to be mad.  The Pegulas aren't spending $700M of their own money on the stadium.  And they won't have to.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Doc

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I didn't say anything about downtown. Location really isn't a big deal to me. 

 

I think they decided to build there a while ago which is why they started building up the practice facilities. 

To me if you are going to spend $1billion plus, it needs to be downtown.  Asking the taxpayers for that much money, and you have to at least TRY to justify more use than just 10 bills games per year.  Will you get your money back no matter what? probably not, but you can make a case for greater use downtown than you can tucking it away in Orchard park.

 

But if you REALLY want to keep it in Orchard park, the cost has to be a lot lower.  Down there you don't need a 'modern' palace.  You want it there, then it will be enjoyed by the same people who go to the game now.  It can be brand new, but you don't need much/many of the modern ammenities.

 

We could go round and round on this topic and everyone has their own point of view, but for me it is simple...if it is staying in Orchard park, the taxpayer portion of the bill better be pretty small. You want a LOT of taxpayer money?  The the project better be downtown.

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

To me if you are going to spend $1billion plus, it needs to be downtown.  Asking the taxpayers for that much money, and you have to at least TRY to justify more use than just 10 bills games per year.  Will you get your money back no matter what? probably not, but you can make a case for greater use downtown than you can tucking it away in Orchard park.

 

But if you REALLY want to keep it in Orchard park, the cost has to be a lot lower.  Down there you don't need a 'modern' palace.  You want it there, then it will be enjoyed by the same people who go to the game now.  It can be brand new, but you don't need much/many of the modern ammenities.

 

We could go round and round on this topic and everyone has their own point of view, but for me it is simple...if it is staying in Orchard park, the taxpayer portion of the bill better be pretty small. You want a LOT of taxpayer money?  The the project better be downtown.

 

Again it will cost almost $1B more to build it downtown.

[Saxum]

43 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Agreed, and it’s - admittedly - not a fair comparison as MB Stadium is in Midtown Atlanta and hosts a ton of events… I highly doubt Kanye would try to live in the new Bills Stadium.  
 

I have no idea why we wouldn’t want something like the Vikings have, but it seems everyone is dead set on open air. 

 

The Vikings stadium is only covered stadium I have liked but I have not been there - how are sight lines?

 

Every dome stadium I have been in sucked.

[Rochesterfan]

2 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

To me if you are going to spend $1billion plus, it needs to be downtown.  Asking the taxpayers for that much money, and you have to at least TRY to justify more use than just 10 bills games per year.  Will you get your money back no matter what? probably not, but you can make a case for greater use downtown than you can tucking it away in Orchard park.

 

But if you REALLY want to keep it in Orchard park, the cost has to be a lot lower.  Down there you don't need a 'modern' palace.  You want it there, then it will be enjoyed by the same people who go to the game now.  It can be brand new, but you don't need much/many of the modern ammenities.

 

We could go round and round on this topic and everyone has their own point of view, but for me it is simple...if it is staying in Orchard park, the taxpayer portion of the bill better be pretty small. You want a LOT of taxpayer money?  The the project better be downtown.

 

I don’t disagree with what you are saying, I disagree with the taxpayer sentiment.  The taxpayer portion is going to be huge either way.  I would prefer if that was logically spent downtown with a Ford Field, Indy, or Minnesota type stadium.

 

If they are going the cheap route with a new open air in OP - I still expect the taxpayers to foot most of the bill - the overall cost will just be less.  It provides nothing but a game day experience, but the cost will be smaller.

 

Downtown brings much more availability, but the costs rise.  

[mjd1001]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Again it will cost almost $1B more to build it downtown.

So my original point stands...if you are going to build it in Orchard park, then the taxpayer cost better be pretty low ($500 million or less).  does that sound unreasonable?  Maybe, but if you are not going to bring much new other than a replacement in the same location, then there really isn't much benefit for the public at large to build something that cost that much.   The taxpayers won't get their money back with it downtown, but if you are asking for any public money, at least you are giving SOMETHING back to the city...by keeping it in OP, you aren't giving as much back (esp if it will be used pretty much for Bills games only).  Other than for the 70,000 poeple who attend the games, what will a new stadium down there bring to the rest of the community?

[Doc]

Just now, mjd1001 said:

So my original point stands...if you are going to build it in Orchard park, then the taxpayer cost better be pretty low ($500 million or less).  does that sound unreasonable?  Maybe, but if you are not going to bring much new other than a replacement in the same location, then there really isn't much benefit for the public at large to build something that cost that much.   The taxpayers won't get their money back with it downtown, but if you are asking for any public money, at least you are giving SOMETHING back to the city...by keeping it in OP, you aren't giving as much back (esp if it will be used pretty much for Bills games only).  Other than for the 70,000 poeple who attend the games, what will a new stadium down there bring to the rest of the community?

 

If the stadium generates $900M over 20 years, then it's worth the investment.  The alternative is the team moves.

[Rochesterfan]

1 minute ago, Limeaid said:

 

The Vikings stadium is only covered stadium I have liked but I have not been there - how are sight lines?

 

Every dome stadium I have been in sucked.

 

Sal was talking about Ford Field having really nice sight lines.

 

Indy had fine sight lines for the game I saw there.

 

I have heard Minny was phenomenal and I can’t wait to hear how the new LA and LV stadiums actually seem with fans, but both seemed fine.

 

I think old designs forced bad sight lines for roofed stadiums, but the newer stadiums seemed to have solved most of that issue.  I think the roofed stadiums lose some of that ambiance that we love, but also controls the weather better when you have a top flight offense.

2 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

So my original point stands...if you are going to build it in Orchard park, then the taxpayer cost better be pretty low ($500 million or less).  does that sound unreasonable?  Maybe, but if you are not going to bring much new other than a replacement in the same location, then there really isn't much benefit for the public at large to build something that cost that much.   The taxpayers won't get their money back with it downtown, but if you are asking for any public money, at least you are giving SOMETHING back to the city...by keeping it in OP, you aren't giving as much back (esp if it will be used pretty much for Bills games only).  Other than for the 70,000 poeple who attend the games, what will a new stadium down there bring to the rest of the community?

 

I think you are going to be pretty upset then.  My guess will be the new OP stadium is going to run about a billion for the taxpayer - twice what you are looking at.

 

I also think if it was going downtown that would be closer to 2 billion in taxpayer cost - so staying in OP will be much lower for taxpayers, but it is still going to be a lot.

[BuffaloBills1998]

39 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Prepare to be mad.  The Pegulas aren't spending $700M of their own money on the stadium.  And they won't have to.

How do you know this?? The article that came out explained that the Pegulas weren’t expecting the public to front the whole cost. I expect the Pegulas will be paying a fair amount out of they’re own pocket as they should

[Desert Bills Fan]

I have been back to Buffalo on several occasions and found the downtown canal side area to be a wonderful addition.

Putting a domed stadium would allow year round enjoyment for things other than the Bills - like a first rate concert venue, trade shows, etc. Extended light rail could deliver fans to the game.

Being tax dollar built- I hope the region thinks bigger than just the Bills games. But agree it needs to be a first rate football venue. 

An open air in OP seems to be short sighted to me, think BIG Buffalo.

[RiotAct]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The stadium will not pay for itself and keeping it in OP means that even more so it will not pay for itself.  The question becomes where is the 1.4 billion coming from - is it coming from the public via taxes and other funding or is it coming from the public via higher seat prices, PSLs, and other fees?  

 

Should be the latter.  In my opinion.  Let the folks who want to pay for the product, pay it.

 

 

My question is, for the amount funded by taxpayers, which “pool” of money does that come out of, and how is that pool replenished (if at all)?

[LabattBlue]

23 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Again it will cost almost $1B more to build it downtown.

This is just a wild guess on your part...unless you have access to the study the Pegula’s had contracted for last year. 

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, Desert Bills Fan said:

I have been back to Buffalo on several occasions and found the downtown canal side area to be a wonderful addition.

Putting a domed stadium would allow year round enjoyment for things other than the Bills - like a first rate concert venue, trade shows, etc. Extended light rail could deliver fans to the game.

Being tax dollar built- I hope the region thinks bigger than just the Bills games. But agree it needs to be a first rate football venue. 

An open air in OP seems to be short sighted to me, think BIG Buffalo.

Why does buffalo have to think big? Downtown stadiums are trendy, that's all

 

They don't bring any economic impact, dozens of studies have already shown that... Buffalo is a blue collar, rust belt, gothic art deco style City

 

The last thing it needs is a couple billion dollar Palace downtown

 

The people of Buffalo are also blue collar, hard working, embrace the elements people... Literally the idea of a domed stadium flies in the face of that 

 

Football is a game that was made for the elements, and the city has always embraced that

 

Not to mention the fact that we have the best long-standing tailgating tradition in the NFL, which will disappear if it goes downtown

 

All of those signs point to an open air stadium in orchard Park

 

Everybody has their own opinions.. the majority of Buffalonians don't want to lose anything of what I stated 

 

We embrace the elements, and we have a long tradition of Tailgating with family , friends and fun..

 

The bills are building a football stadium, not a multi-purpose facility

Edited August 13, 2021 by Buffalo716

[LeGOATski]

Doesn't the cost largely depend on where it's built, too? Like state to state. Isn't that why MetLife was built in NJ? So a direct comparison to stadiums in other states would not be accurate. I have very little knowledge of these matters, though.

 

The fact that they already own the OP land helps. They should definitely build it there and keep the same game day atmosphere they have now.

 

Downtown covered stadiums for football? How incredibly boring.

[Rochesterfan]

20 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

Should be the latter.  In my opinion.  Let the folks who want to pay for the product, pay it.

 

 

My question is, for the amount funded by taxpayers, which “pool” of money does that come out of, and how is that pool replenished (if at all)?

 

I don’t disagree, but then people need to expect to see major changes to the game day fans.  If you have 65,000 season tickets - you need essentially come up with $16,000 per person to cover the private cost over a short time.  The longer it takes the more you need to cover interest.  
 

So upping the cost to over $200 per ticket and $5,000 psl per seat and you begin to cover the cost in 10-15 years, but if it costs over $7000 for tickets and $20,000 for a psl for 4 tickets - how many regular fans are signing up for that?

 

You are then changing the clientele completely and if it doesn’t sell out - you have to find other ways to get that money.

 

If you spread that out through the state with 20 million people - you could cover that with a much smaller cut - 5$ a year covering 10 years hits 1 Billion and you could do that with a state wide stadium fee - that covers that and other stadium needs in the future.

[RiotAct]

“For just $5 a year, you can keep a Bills Mafia member’s dreams of attending a game alive!”