Buffalo716 Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 18 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I was in San Antonio this weekend and drove past the Alamodome sitting there right on the edge of downtown. I couldn’t help but think of the many times that it was rumored to have been built for the Bills. It never happened and so there it sits. A 65,000 seat domed venue…empty. UTSA plays there
BuffaloBills1998 Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said: This really spells out what Buffalo is up against. Bottom line: Buffalo is a poor market. https://e-edition.buffalonews.com?selDate=20210808&goTo=A01&artid=2 We are not a poor market, it’s gotten a hell of a lot better in Buffalo than what it was in the older years. 100 bucks says we’re building the stadium in OP since it would be the cheapest move
BuffaloRebound Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said: This really spells out what Buffalo is up against. Bottom line: Buffalo is a poor market. https://e-edition.buffalonews.com?selDate=20210808&goTo=A01&artid=2 What a chicken little BS article. NFL loses way more than it gains if it leaves Buffalo. Plus there is no obvious relocation candidate like LA was for 25 years. The TV and media contract accounts for large majority of NFL revenues. If you go by Forbes, the Pegulas $1.4B investment has increased by $900m since they bought franchise. Being from WNY we know to never get over-confident, but government/taxpayers hold most of the cards in the stadium negotiations.
Buffalo716 Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said: We are not a poor market, it’s gotten a hell of a lot better in Buffalo than what it was in the older years. 100 bucks says we’re building the stadium in OP since it would be the cheapest move I mean I've been a resident my entire life, and objectively, Buffalo is still a poor city It doesn't mean that downtown isnt beautiful, or that there's nice parts of the city.. Buffalo is an extremely beautiful city But a lot of the residents of the city are extremely poor or living in poverty The East side neighborhoods which is the largest area of the city, have been and still are poverty stricken That said we're still getting a new stadium and I agree in orchard Park Edited August 9, 2021 by Buffalo716 2
PromoTheRobot Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said: What a chicken little BS article. NFL loses way more than it gains if it leaves Buffalo. Plus there is no obvious relocation candidate like LA was for 25 years. The TV and media contract accounts for large majority of NFL revenues. If you go by Forbes, the Pegulas $1.4B investment has increased by $900m since they bought franchise. Being from WNY we know to never get over-confident, but government/taxpayers hold most of the cards in the stadium negotiations. The point is the NFL is driven by the almighty buck and Buffalo as a market lacks the basis for selling lots of luxury box and high end seating. The only way it works for the NFL is if the team doesn't carry the debt. Everyone points at other owners covering some or all of the cost. But that's because those owners feel they will make it back. You can't make it back here. Don't forget as long as the border stays closed, both the Bills and Sabres are losing potential fans. They will need to get really creative. Edited August 9, 2021 by PromoTheRobot
BuffaloRebound Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 50 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: The point is the NFL is driven by the almighty buck and Buffalo as a market lacks the basis for selling lots of luxury box and high end seating. The only way it works for the NFL is if the team doesn't carry the debt. Everyone points at other owners covering some or all of the cost. But that's because those owners feel they will make it back. You can't make it back here. Don't forget as long as the border stays closed, both the Bills and Sabres are losing potential fans. They will need to get really creative. Then don’t build a new stadium. Nobody’s asking for it other than the NFL owners. Is the NFL really gonna jettison one of its most passionate fanbases for an extra $100-200m in luxury seating when it makes $20B overall and it’s TV contracts are already set for next 10 years?
PromoTheRobot Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said: Then don’t build a new stadium. Nobody’s asking for it other than the NFL owners. Is the NFL really gonna jettison one of its most passionate fanbases for an extra $100-200m in luxury seating when it makes $20B overall and it’s TV contracts are already set for next 10 years? They will, without losing a night's sleep. I think they need to take a long look and see if they could creatively spread the pain of a $1B over 30 years. Rooms & meals tax earmarked for a stadium? (Sorry but) PSLs? Sell bonds? You don't have to spend a ton of money to make a new stadium with a lot of revenue opportunities. It calls for forward thinking and design. And lastly, better get used to paying more for tickets. Buffalo is $30 under then next lowest average. The league will not tolerate this unless they close the gap some. Edited August 9, 2021 by PromoTheRobot
BuffaloRebound Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: They will, without losing a night's sleep. I disagree. There’s no LA out there anymore. An Austin or St. Louis move isn’t a jackpot for Pegula. Increases value of Bills by $1B at most. Then subtract from that all the investments Pegula has made in WNY which will basically become worthless. Then factor in that he and his family will become the most hated people ever in WNY and among Bills fans all over the country.
PromoTheRobot Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 32 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said: I disagree. There’s no LA out there anymore. An Austin or St. Louis move isn’t a jackpot for Pegula. Increases value of Bills by $1B at most. Then subtract from that all the investments Pegula has made in WNY which will basically become worthless. Then factor in that he and his family will become the most hated people ever in WNY and among Bills fans all over the country. Hope you're right.
GoBills! Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 Build in orchard park, have a hotel built in to the complex for teams and visitors wanting to stay along with a few restaurants available all year long. People would still stay on away game weekends with rooms with a view for a fun time. 1
SectionC3 Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 7 hours ago, GoBills! said: Build in orchard park, have a hotel built in to the complex for teams and visitors wanting to stay along with a few restaurants available all year long. People would still stay on away game weekends with rooms with a view for a fun time. The hotel is the Marriott downtown. Development around the stadium is basically pointless. Look at what's there now. Prohibition is basically empty all of the time. O'Neill's appears to be an ECC South bar. Even the Big Tree is basically dead most of the time. The stadium is about building a place to attract high-end money on game day. Nothing more, nothing less. That's the market in which we live.
SectionC3 Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 1 hour ago, SectionC3 said: The hotel is the Marriott downtown. Development around the stadium is basically pointless. Look at what's there now. Prohibition is basically empty all of the time. O'Neill's appears to be an ECC South bar. Even the Big Tree is basically dead most of the time. The stadium is about building a place to attract high-end money on game day. Nothing more, nothing less. That's the market in which we live. EDIT: Just did a little market research. We're DMA #52 in Buffalo. Obviously a small market. But add Rochester (roughly 90 minutes from the stadium on a slow day, and a completely reasonable "add" if we're going to consider, for example, how long it takes to get to Foxboro from parts of the Boston DMA and to Met Life from basically anywhere in the NYC DMA) and the "Hamilton/Niagara Falls" slice of Toronto and we're probably market #20. That is not too shabby. So, again, the trick is getting those luxury seats sold. And that's where we have to be able to tap Toronto, what's left in Rochester, whatever is in Albany, and even (really) New York City. Josh Allen is the "hook" for all of those things. 9 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: Hope you're right. It's a math problem. If the Pegulas weren't serious about wanting to stay in Buffalo, they wouldn't have hired the lobbyist with tons of Albany connections. So, basically, New York State has to make it better financially for them to build here than to pay to leave for Austin, etc., and to build there. It's that simple.
BuffaloBills1998 Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 9 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: Hope you're right. He can’t move the team, he would have to either sell or move the Sabres and he’s not doing either. The Bills are staying in Buffalo no matter what anyone thinks
Rochesterfan Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 9 hours ago, GoBills! said: Build in orchard park, have a hotel built in to the complex for teams and visitors wanting to stay along with a few restaurants available all year long. People would still stay on away game weekends with rooms with a view for a fun time. Nope a hotel attached and restaurants do very little for 350 days a year. At least downtown those hotels and restaurants can cater to the working people that are there everyday - plus you hit hockey, baseball, festivals, just a ton of potential dates, but in OP - there is nothing to feed it. You would need to build a stadium, a fan experience, a hall of fame with gift shop, hotel, restaurants, an office complex to help support the restaurants during the off season, some shopping and movie spots to bring customers to the area. Basically you are building the galleria mall around the stadium and hoping it can bring enough people that it doesn’t collapse on itself with the cost. You are also doing this at a time that destination shopping and restaurants are starting to go under as people order items from Amazon, Grub Hub, Door Dash, etc. those exact type of things are going under all over the country.
Rochesterfan Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 14 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said: He can’t move the team, he would have to either sell or move the Sabres and he’s not doing either. The Bills are staying in Buffalo no matter what anyone thinks I agree there is no way they are moving, but that doesn’t mean they are making the best choices of what to do for themselves and the area. It sounds to me like they are offering the cheapest deal and therefore are asking for the most public support. My guess is their “studies” and “questionnaires” have shown then the current fan base doesn’t want PSLs and wants the stadium in OP and is willing to spend a little more, but not like NE or NYC. Therefore if the Pegula’s understand the market - and maintain as current some minimal PSLs, and hike seat prices some - even doubling them - how do they pay off the investment on the stadium. The analysis says if the average ticket price in the new stadium was $50 higher per seat and it was at a 65,000 capacity - it would take over 41 years to pay off the initial 1 billion cost. During that 41 years - if you have some games with down years and/or you need to remodel/renovate - then you fall further behind. The final breakdown will be a compromise of county, state, and federal public funds - along with a small private contribution from the Pegula’s. Their big compromise will be keeping it in OP - helping to keep costs down, but preventing them from changing the clientele and cost point at the game. It moves it away from their investments and limits to some degree the corporate sponsorship. They are not moving the team, but they are also not getting what would be best for the future - a downtown multi-use venue that could support the area and drive change - like better metro trains from the outlying suburbs to central hubs downtown. Like additional hotels and restaurants that could be used for hockey, baseball, and other events. A stadium will never “pay” for itself, but it can help provide needed infrastructure and businesses that when combined with other venues in the area can help grow snd support each other. 2
May Day 10 Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 30 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Nope a hotel attached and restaurants do very little for 350 days a year. At least downtown those hotels and restaurants can cater to the working people that are there everyday - plus you hit hockey, baseball, festivals, just a ton of potential dates, but in OP - there is nothing to feed it. You would need to build a stadium, a fan experience, a hall of fame with gift shop, hotel, restaurants, an office complex to help support the restaurants during the off season, some shopping and movie spots to bring customers to the area. Basically you are building the galleria mall around the stadium and hoping it can bring enough people that it doesn’t collapse on itself with the cost. You are also doing this at a time that destination shopping and restaurants are starting to go under as people order items from Amazon, Grub Hub, Door Dash, etc. those exact type of things are going under all over the country. Well, you may be trying to get a lot of the Canadian fans (or potential fans) to stay there 'on campus'. Then you get a number of shopping options right there with some eateries and such. Plus, with sports-gambling, who knows what they are going to have on the premises (or what they can have). Out of town non-canadian fans too would likely go there and stay. You could have some real hustle and bustle and fun for those 8-10 weekends the Bills play... Kind of a ritzier version of the RV-lot. But yeah, you would need a hook for other dates and more of a constant flow. Let's say they can nab 10 decent draw events over the course of a typical year (might be generous, but who knows what they can get).
BuffaloRebound Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 9 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: I agree there is no way they are moving, but that doesn’t mean they are making the best choices of what to do for themselves and the area. It sounds to me like they are offering the cheapest deal and therefore are asking for the most public support. My guess is their “studies” and “questionnaires” have shown then the current fan base doesn’t want PSLs and wants the stadium in OP and is willing to spend a little more, but not like NE or NYC. Therefore if the Pegula’s understand the market - and maintain as current some minimal PSLs, and hike seat prices some - even doubling them - how do they pay off the investment on the stadium. The analysis says if the average ticket price in the new stadium was $50 higher per seat and it was at a 65,000 capacity - it would take over 41 years to pay off the initial 1 billion cost. During that 41 years - if you have some games with down years and/or you need to remodel/renovate - then you fall further behind. The final breakdown will be a compromise of county, state, and federal public funds - along with a small private contribution from the Pegula’s. Their big compromise will be keeping it in OP - helping to keep costs down, but preventing them from changing the clientele and cost point at the game. It moves it away from their investments and limits to some degree the corporate sponsorship. They are not moving the team, but they are also not getting what would be best for the future - a downtown multi-use venue that could support the area and drive change - like better metro trains from the outlying suburbs to central hubs downtown. Like additional hotels and restaurants that could be used for hockey, baseball, and other events. A stadium will never “pay” for itself, but it can help provide needed infrastructure and businesses that when combined with other venues in the area can help grow snd support each other. I agree with almost all of this, but I think a Niagara Falls NY stadium is the only option that won’t be a complete money pit. Niagara Falls is by far the best thing WNY has going for it. It was once a must see destination and could be again with the right investments. Downtown Buffalo doesn’t have the corporate/business base and nobody vacations in Buffalo. There is even less reason to build something new in Orchard Park.
Rochesterfan Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 6 minutes ago, May Day 10 said: Well, you may be trying to get a lot of the Canadian fans (or potential fans) to stay there 'on campus'. Then you get a number of shopping options right there with some eateries and such. Plus, with sports-gambling, who knows what they are going to have on the premises (or what they can have). Out of town non-canadian fans too would likely go there and stay. You could have some real hustle and bustle and fun for those 8-10 weekends the Bills play... Kind of a ritzier version of the RV-lot. But yeah, you would need a hook for other dates and more of a constant flow. Let's say they can nab 10 decent draw events over the course of a typical year (might be generous, but who knows what they can get). I totally agree it would rock for those Bills weekends - even being generous with playoffs and we hit 11 or 12 weekends - it is great - I just don’t think it would be sustainable M-Thursday and the other 40 weekends a year. Any kind of sports gambling and etc would also be available (and already is available now with the downtown casino) wherever the stadium was built. 6 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said: I agree with almost all of this, but I think a Niagara Falls NY stadium is the only option that won’t be a complete money pit. Niagara Falls is by far the best thing WNY has going for it. It was once a must see destination and could be again with the right investments. Downtown Buffalo doesn’t have the corporate/business base and nobody vacations in Buffalo. There is even less reason to build something new in Orchard Park. I have no issue with this thinking - just Niagara Falls NY is not what it used to be, but it would be better than OP for helping out.
SectionC3 Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 I’m just going to leave this here for thought: https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/31991886/arizona-cardinals-become-1st-nfl-team-announce-plans-retail-sportsbook-stadium
Albany,n.y. Posted August 9, 2021 Posted August 9, 2021 (edited) I haven't read all 76 pages so I don't know if anyone proposed this: The county sells all the property to the Bills for X dollars. The county then takes the $ the Bills paid them & gives it back to the Pegulas to help build the new stadium. Now under this scenario the Pegulas basically pay for the whole thing, but in return, they now own the stadium, all the facilities on the land & by owning the stadium increase the value of the franchise (since the stadium is worth more than half what the team is worth & they own it). They no longer have a lease and own the whole property, parking lots and all. 9 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: I’m just going to leave this here for thought: https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/31991886/arizona-cardinals-become-1st-nfl-team-announce-plans-retail-sportsbook-stadium When you go to a game at Met-Life they have a sportsbook at the racetrack which is basically on the same property. You can park your car, walk over to the sportsbook, bet the game, go inside & watch it & then cash your bet after the game. I've never done it but I have seen the sports book people in the parking lot at Met-Life telling people where they can bet during tailgates. Edited August 9, 2021 by Albany,n.y.
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