SoCal Deek Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said: Well I'm no architect but I have to imagine a lot hinges on the stadium footprint. One of the big reasons the original Rich Stadium only cost $23MM to build in 1973 was most of the stadium was built in the ground. The result was a wide bowl. Great for fan views but not good if you want to put a roof on. If they did want to put a roof on later they would have to limit the footprint. It would have to be a taller, narrower structure with stacked decks, like Foxboro, which was built totally above ground. One of the big drivers of building in OP again could be, again, the cost of a stadium partially built into the ground. If they replicate that Rich Stadium template, they'll save money upfront but will make it that much difficult to cover it later. I am an architect, and you’re mostly correct! 👍 1
haroldwaide Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 I've been thinking and its my belief that the proposal that is being leaked is a dummy proposal. Get the fan base upset about the team playing elsewhere for two years during construction ( mentioning playing in toronto is a great way to do that ) and then say "you know, for a few hundred million dollars more we COULD do this instead..." And then unveil their true stadium proposal... 1 1
PromoTheRobot Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I am an architect, and you’re mostly correct! 👍 So let me ask you this. Could they get creative and come up with a plan that allows both? Lower cost being in the ground but with support points that allow a roof later? One idea I had was a "cloverleaf" design. Each seating section, both sidelines and endzones, are distinct, separated by supports in the corners. You wind up losing most of your seating in the corners, or maybe create areas with obstructed views. (Could be used for concession areas.) I got the idea seeing the Danish soccer stadium in Copenhagen. The Alamodome in San Antonio used the same plan. 6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: Edited June 21, 2021 by PromoTheRobot 1
nucci Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 To me the most important thing is to limit the wind inside the stadium. 1 1
SoCal Deek Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: So let me ask you this. Could they get creative and come up with a plan that allows both? Lower cost being in the ground but with support points that allow a roof later? One idea I had was a "cloverleaf" design. Each seating section, both sidelines and endzones, are distinct, separated by supports in the corners. You wind up losing most of your seating in the corners, or maybe create areas with obstructed views. (Could be used for concession areas.) I got the idea seeing the Danish soccer stadium in Copenhagen. The Alamodome in San Antonio used the same plan. Building the stadium into the ground saves tons of money because the lower bowl is nothing more than a slab on grade structure. There are limits though to the depth because of the natural water table on the site. You can only go so deep. The new Los Angeles stadium was built into the ground due to height constraints from nearby LAX airport. The real cost issue in truly enclosing an air conditioned dome is keeping the perimeter profile of the upper deck relatively uniform, otherwise you end up with large window walls like in Minnesota (which look great but are very costly...and there’s nothing to look at out the window in Orchard Park). Interestingly, LA is not an enclosed dome but in reality just a big umbrella. There’s no heating or cooling required, due to the temperate climate. So remember, we’ve not even scratched the surface of costs related to a heating and cooling system for a facility of this large volume. 1
SectionC3 Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: Building the stadium into the ground saves tons of money because the lower bowl is nothing more than a slab on grade structure. There are limits though to the depth because of the natural water table on the site. You can only go so deep. The new Los Angeles stadium was built into the ground due to height constraints from nearby LAX airport. The real cost issue in truly enclosing an air conditioned dome is keeping the perimeter profile of the upper deck relatively uniform, otherwise you end up with large window walls like in Minnesota (which look great but are very costly...and there’s nothing to look at out the window in Orchard Park). Interestingly, LA is not an enclosed dome but in reality just a big umbrella. There’s no heating or cooling required, due to the temperate climate. So remember, we’ve not even scratched the surface of costs related to a heating and cooling system for a facility of this large volume. This is an interesting discussion. How would (or would) geothermal assist in heating/cooling if a significant part of the new stadium is below grade? I’ll add that my guess is that the water table wouldn’t be too much of an issue if the new stadium is build either close to the west side of Abbott or on the SE corner of Abbott and Southwestern. The existing stadium is on a hill, and the west side of Abbott is similarly sort of high. Things start to slope a bit down as one gets closer to ECC academic buildings and the intersection of 20A/20/McKinley.
Putin Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 (edited) On 6/18/2021 at 12:17 PM, nucci said: not yet when would people go to these shops and restaurants? the tables breaking Bills mafia crowd will hit those shops and restaurants after tailgating as soon as all alcohol is consumed !!! Edited June 21, 2021 by Putin 2
SoCal Deek Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 53 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: This is an interesting discussion. How would (or would) geothermal assist in heating/cooling if a significant part of the new stadium is below grade? I’ll add that my guess is that the water table wouldn’t be too much of an issue if the new stadium is build either close to the west side of Abbott or on the SE corner of Abbott and Southwestern. The existing stadium is on a hill, and the west side of Abbott is similarly sort of high. Things start to slope a bit down as one gets closer to ECC academic buildings and the intersection of 20A/20/McKinley. The water table is not as impacted by the slopes you mention. It has a lot to do with makeup of the soil directly under the construction site, but to a certain point you are correct. With regard to geothermal, I have to admit I have no idea if it’s been tried on a facility of this large of a scale. In general, sustainable practices can offer an assist to traditional sources but they rarely supply the entire facility. However, with a stadium only open a few dates a year it’s possible to use the down days to create power that can be sold back to the ‘grid’. 1
May Day 10 Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 I wonder if they got this Jerry Jones firm on-board to be the bad guy. I always thought it would be a very awkward situation with pegula and his/their whole persona of being unquestionably committed to Buffalo and they seem to always want to be liked by the fans and community (in fact, Terry said to his people that was his primary goal when he first bought the Sabres) So it would be weird for the Pegulas to play any sort of hardball in these negotiations, and I wonder if the State would really take advantage of that, Im pretty sure Polancarz/EC will/would. So they got this firm to come in and lob the threats and all that. 1
PromoTheRobot Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 1 hour ago, May Day 10 said: I wonder if they got this Jerry Jones firm on-board to be the bad guy. I always thought it would be a very awkward situation with pegula and his/their whole persona of being unquestionably committed to Buffalo and they seem to always want to be liked by the fans and community (in fact, Terry said to his people that was his primary goal when he first bought the Sabres) So it would be weird for the Pegulas to play any sort of hardball in these negotiations, and I wonder if the State would really take advantage of that, Im pretty sure Polancarz/EC will/would. So they got this firm to come in and lob the threats and all that. Good cop/a**hole cop?
SectionC3 Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: The water table is not as impacted by the slopes you mention. It has a lot to do with makeup of the soil directly under the construction site, but to a certain point you are correct. With regard to geothermal, I have to admit I have no idea if it’s been tried on a facility of this large of a scale. In general, sustainable practices can offer an assist to traditional sources but they rarely supply the entire facility. However, with a stadium only open a few dates a year it’s possible to use the down days to create power that can be sold back to the ‘grid’. Good point on the water table. And good knowledge, too. What i was—very inartfully trying to get at—was that, as a neophyte in this area, I figured that if “they” could dig at the current stadium site, there might not be too much of an issue digging a few hundred yards west on the other side of Abbott.
billsfan89 Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 If there is a 1-2 year gap in the stadium lease vs. when a new stadium opens up I suspect they will just extend the lease 1-2 years. Simple solution. Hopefully the Bills keep the open air stadium.
716er Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: If there is a 1-2 year gap in the stadium lease vs. when a new stadium opens up I suspect they will just extend the lease 1-2 years. Simple solution. Hopefully the Bills keep the open air stadium. From what I have read they’ll need to destroy the Ralph before they break ground on the new stadium as it’ll be in roughly the same spot. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. Edited June 21, 2021 by 716er
PromoTheRobot Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 31 minutes ago, 716er said: From what I have read they’ll need to destroy the Ralph before they break ground on the new stadium as it’ll be in roughly the same spot. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. That seems to be the suggestion but does it have to be? Several other stadium projects were built side by side (Philly & Foxboro) Why can't they do that in OP? 1
Ned Flanders Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: That seems to be the suggestion but does it have to be? Several other stadium projects were built side by side (Philly & Foxboro) Why can't they do that in OP? May want to start buying stock in Hammer Lot Properties, LLC. 1
RyanC883 Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 7 hours ago, nucci said: a dome is expensive, to cut some cost, cut some seats. If the team/league needs more revenue per seat, then 65K would easily clear the threshold, and being in a dome would provide all season demand. I don't think making a new outdoor stadium is going to do anything to increase the value to an average game attendee. Unless it's smaller to increase the price per seat/margin, it won't make any more money, IMO. 1
foreboding Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 (edited) On 6/18/2021 at 12:59 PM, BornAgainBillsFan said: If this were a legal case, with Goodell as the judge and Jones as an attorney, Jones would be asked to recuse himself due to a conflict of interest. Why is that not happening now? Let's just win the Super Bowl. Then this frilly stuff will take care of itself. Legal?? This is planning and fabricating a building...unless Jerry builds secret cameras into the stadium...I know having an experienced firm is a smart idea. Why wouldn't you want the guy that built Jerry-World to help? Edited June 21, 2021 by foreboding 2
LabattBlue Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 Each passing day since this thread was started, I shake my head more and more wondering what led them to an open air stadium. IMO...such a big mistake. 1
DrDawkinstein Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 1 minute ago, BTB said: Each passing day since this thread was started, I shake my head more and more wondering what led them to an open air stadium. IMO...such a big mistake. Nothing is decided yet. Not even close. IMO, this is all negotiating through the media with the city. "We'll just stay in OP, AND move the team away for a year or two. Unless we can get a deal done downtown..." 1
nucci Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 26 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: Nothing is decided yet. Not even close. IMO, this is all negotiating through the media with the city. "We'll just stay in OP, AND move the team away for a year or two. Unless we can get a deal done downtown..." Agreed, No way Bills are moving away for a couple of seasons while stadium is being built 1 1
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