plenzmd1 Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 16 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said: Does Belichick honor those deals? No. Does any team? No. Why should the player have the same expectation? Did you say the Bills should have honored John Brown's deal instead of cutting him? Any player who signs a second deal knows exactly what he is getting. If a player signs a 6 year deal with $30 m guaranteed up front , with very little dead cap hit in the last couple of years, those years would be better termed “ club option “ years. Everyone knows that what it is, the player, the agent , the team .. everyone. if they wanted in cut table contracts, they would do 3 year deals with guaranteed salary and no signing bonus likes Cousins does. the players who get screwed hard in this CBA really are the young players on first contracts that have no choice in contract numbers and structure outside a few small areas. And man, if you an UDFA you really screwed. but to say a player on second contract was ever screwed is just not right. They knew exactly what they signed, and for how long they were guaranteed to be in the team. Just like Mahomes deal right now. He is tied to the Chiefs for 10 years, but the Chiefs are only tied to him for 4. That’s why agents were very losses with that deal. Great team friendly deal, let’s hope the Bills can get something similar to that for JA. OTOH, ( forgetting legal issue) Watsons 4 year contract guaranteed he would be paid for 4 years, and then get another crack at a massive contract when new media deals kicked in. Smart agent, smart player 1
BarleyNY Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, maddenboy said: PFT said that Gilmore's $7mm this year is really a lot more, but in a re-structure last year they moved (like $4.5mm iirc) from this year to last year, as cashish. "His minicamp plans have been a question because he’s heading into the final year of his contract with a salary of $7 million after the team moved $4.5 million of his base salary into his 2020 compensation and missing all of this week’s work would signal he wants a new deal in New England." So his real compensation for this year is much more than 7. Yeah, $11.5mm might still be below market, but still . . . And makes the argument "you signed the deal, so stop crying" much stronger in this situation. That’s not at all correct. Gilmore has previously restructured by converting salary to signing bonuses, but he never moved salary to a different year. In fact moving his 2021 salary to previous seasons would have been counterproductive for NE. All that happened was that NE moved some of his cap hits to future years. $7M for him is ludicrously under market. NE has known for years that he would not play for that and that they’d have to give him a new contract or trade to a team that would. I’ve got no problem with him holding out - or with a team cutting a player underperforming their contract. Edited June 15, 2021 by BarleyNY 1
Southern_Bills Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 Eh, The players know they have no intention of honoring the last few years when they sign. The team knows they will cut them if age/injury hinder their performance. Both parties have intentions that are not honorable, so I say let them have at it. Won't effect my day at all, they both knew they were heading to this long ago. Gilmore kinda "won" because he stayed healthy and a viable CB.
YoloinOhio Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: Any player who signs a second deal knows exactly what he is getting. If a player signs a 6 year deal with $30 m guaranteed up front , with very little dead cap hit in the last couple of years, those years would be better termed “ club option “ years. Everyone knows that what it is, the player, the agent , the team .. everyone. if they wanted in cut table contracts, they would do 3 year deals with guaranteed salary and no signing bonus likes Cousins does. the players who get screwed hard in this CBA really are the young players on first contracts that have no choice in contract numbers and structure outside a few small areas. And man, if you an UDFA you really screwed. but to say a player on second contract was ever screwed is just not right. They knew exactly what they signed, and for how long they were guaranteed to be in the team. Just like Mahomes deal right now. He is tied to the Chiefs for 10 years, but the Chiefs are only tied to him for 4. That’s why agents were very losses with that deal. Great team friendly deal, let’s hope the Bills can get something similar to that for JA. OTOH, ( forgetting legal issue) Watsons 4 year contract guaranteed he would be paid for 4 years, and then get another crack at a massive contract when new media deals kicked in. Smart agent, smart player Plenz! Long time no see 1
Ethan in Cleveland Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: Any player who signs a second deal knows exactly what he is getting. If a player signs a 6 year deal with $30 m guaranteed up front , with very little dead cap hit in the last couple of years, those years would be better termed “ club option “ years. Everyone knows that what it is, the player, the agent , the team .. everyone. if they wanted in cut table contracts, they would do 3 year deals with guaranteed salary and no signing bonus likes Cousins does. the players who get screwed hard in this CBA really are the young players on first contracts that have no choice in contract numbers and structure outside a few small areas. And man, if you an UDFA you really screwed. but to say a player on second contract was ever screwed is just not right. They knew exactly what they signed, and for how long they were guaranteed to be in the team. Just like Mahomes deal right now. He is tied to the Chiefs for 10 years, but the Chiefs are only tied to him for 4. That’s why agents were very losses with that deal. Great team friendly deal, let’s hope the Bills can get something similar to that for JA. OTOH, ( forgetting legal issue) Watsons 4 year contract guaranteed he would be paid for 4 years, and then get another crack at a massive contract when new media deals kicked in. Smart agent, smart player That’s not the point. I agree with everything you said but Virgil and others say the player should “honor the contract”. The teams don’t honor the contract so why should the player. The team can cut him and the player can hold out to negotiate a new deal. That’s the system. Why blame the player and absolve the teams? As you said all parties know the final year money is fantasy. If the player is bad they get cut. If the player outperforms the contract they renegotiate. Skipping OTA is standard practice when renegotiating.
plenzmd1 Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said: That’s not the point. I agree with everything you said but Virgil and others say the player should “honor the contract”. The teams don’t honor the contract so why should the player. The team can cut him and the player can hold out to negotiate a new deal. That’s the system. Why blame the player and absolve the teams? As you said all parties know the final year money is fantasy. If the player is bad they get cut. If the player outperforms the contract they renegotiate. Skipping OTA is standard practice when renegotiating. Well, I would argue the team says thIs” we pay you $30m upfront, we have your rights for 5 years. Now we may not exercise that right for all 5 years, but that is why we are paying you your money NOW, as opposed to year 4. if you prefer guaranteed contracts like the NBA and the NHL, okay you get $10m guaranteed a year for 3 years, club option for a 4 th at $15m. Put you get paid that $10m over the 17 weeks , over 3 years. Nothing up front. cousins did this, any nfl player could do it, but they LOVE seeing that $30m check up front!
ALF Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 After recording three straight coverage grades of at least 85.0 in New England’s defense, Gilmore put up just a 58.5 coverage grade in 2020. He recorded just one interception and two pass breakups on 42 targets, allowing a career-high 96.7 passer rating into his coverage. Whether it was injuries or age starting to show in one of the man-heaviest defenses in the NFL, he was not the same player in 2020. https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-cornerback-rankings-the-32-best-outside-cornerbacks-entering-the-2021-nfl-season hope he stays in NE if he keeps playing like last season
maddenboy Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, BarleyNY said: That’s not at all correct. Gilmore has previously restructured by converting salary to signing bonuses, but he never moved salary to a different year. In fact moving his 2021 salary to previous seasons would have been counterproductive for NE. All that happened was that NE moved some of his cap hits to future years. $7M for him is ludicrously under market. NE has known for years that he would not play for that and that they’d have to give him a new contract or trade to a team that would. I’ve got no problem with him holding out - or with a team cutting a player underperforming their contract. Not necessarily counter-productive for NE to do that last year. They were awash in cap and maybe wanted to, or had to, burn some of it to keep Gilmore happy. Looks like they moved some of his cap hit from this year to last year. I will agree that NE must have known he wouldnt play for 11.5mm in 2021 anyway. But I cant read it any other way than that his salary for 2021 was 11.5mm and now its 7mm. It is not that his 2021 salary was always supposed to be $7mm when he signed his contract. I'm only saying that Gilmore is crying about only making 11.5mm this year (some of which has already been paid). Agree that its below-market at 11.5mm. Edited June 15, 2021 by maddenboy
BarleyNY Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 21 minutes ago, maddenboy said: Not necessarily counter-productive for NE to do that last year. They were awash in cap and maybe wanted to, or had to, burn some of it to keep Gilmore happy. Looks like they moved some of his cap hit from this year to last year. I will agree that NE must have known he wouldnt play for 11.5mm in 2021 anyway. But I cant read it any other way than that his salary for 2021 was 11.5mm and now its 7mm. It is not that his 2021 salary was always supposed to be $7mm when he signed his contract. I'm only saying that Gilmore is crying about only making 11.5mm this year (some of which has already been paid). Agree that its below-market at 11.5mm. Ah. I see the advance noted In this article. I did not see anything with it linked and was going by Spotrac’s info - which doesn’t mention the advance at all. It just shows the consequences of it. So NE gave him the $4.5M advance last season to keep him from holding out. Both sides still knew he wouldn’t play for another $7M this season, but NE got a little additional leverage by doing it that way rather than voiding this year. A side note on something that is often misunderstood: Advancing money from a future season as in this case (almost) never gives a team any cap advantage. That’s because carryover eliminates any advantage of using additional space in a current year versus rolling it over. The team just loses flexibility in the short term. The other issue with it is that moving cap hits to future seasons provides an accounting discount since the cap almost always increases. Even negative consequences from a single season (like this one) with a decreased cap can be circumvented. The cap would have to decrease for multiple seasons in a row to make it advantageous to move future cap hits to a current season.
maddenboy Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 15 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: A side note on something that is often misunderstood: Advancing money from a future season as in this case (almost) never gives a team any cap advantage. That’s because carryover eliminates any advantage of using additional space in a current year versus rolling it over. . . . The cap would have to decrease for multiple seasons in a row to make it advantageous to move future cap hits to a current season. I guess the exception might be where a team had to spend up to the cap floor, didnt want to give anyone a raise, and just moved cap from the future into this year. I could see NE being cheap like that. All that cap space they reportedly had last year, and still wanting to gain an advantage in the future. I mean, we all expected 2021 cap to be larger than 2020, but nobody knew how much more. IF that was what NE was thinking, and also IF they didnt plan to keep Gilmore anyway, then it is a shrewd move. 1
ALF Posted June 16, 2021 Posted June 16, 2021 5 year $65M , a cap hit in 2021 of $16.265M counting signing bonus and restructure sounds fair https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/stephon-gilmore-9820/
Doc Posted June 16, 2021 Posted June 16, 2021 14 minutes ago, ALF said: 5 year $65M , a cap hit in 2021 of $16.265M counting signing bonus and restructure sounds fair https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/stephon-gilmore-9820/ Yeah but he took just $13M/year. He’ll want to get back pay.
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