Logan Thomas - a success or a miss?

[Doc]

Teller was a miss, Thomas, no.  Teller was only with the Bills for a season and was playing the same position he did in college.  Thomas was with the Bills for a little over 2 seasons, making a major position change from college and his previous time in the pros and showed nothing, then went to another team with a franchise QB and also showed nothing.  I've shown that when it comes to targets, Knox's and Thomas' production are identical.  Beyond that,Thomas will be 30 in less than 3 weeks.

 

 

[Mark Vader]

Ahhh, the joy of off season topics.

[BarleyNY]

36 minutes ago, Logic said:

These things go both ways.

 

Logan Thomas and Wyatt Teller didn’t do squat here and then broke out elsewhere.

 

On the other hand, current Bills Jerry Hughes, Daryl Williams, Jordan Poyer, and Micah Hyde are all quite good and were all either traded or allowed by their previous teams to walk in Free Agency.

 

Scheme fit, depth chart, opportunity, chemistry...there are a lot of variables that factor into a player’s success or failure with a given team. Painting in broad strokes on this issue is ill-advised.

I agree that both sides of the coin are important to look at.  Some people here really get worked up over any perceived criticism even when presented in a fuller context.  The Bills have been on the wrong side of stuff like this at times - and that can be frustrating - but they’ve been in the right side a lot too.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Wyatt Teller is a head scratcher.  Vlad "The Impaler" Ducasse and John Miller were the definition of mediocre to bad.  Vlad clearly had compromising pictures of McBeane, because he wasn't good at guard.  Teller looked good in limited action, but we shipped him to CLE, for draft picks

 

You know that Ducasse and Miller weren't kept in preference to Teller, right? 

 

In 2018, Teller displaced Ducasse at LG while Ducasse displaced Miller at RG, which is probably the right order of skill, though Ducasse was still bad.  The person Vlad had compromising pics of was apparently "Teflon Juan" Castillo (no, seriously, he was brought in with Castillo, to teach his blocking style, so he was kinda "Coach's pet").

 

When Bobby Johnson replaced Castillo as OL coach, all that changed. 

Miller was a FA in spring 2019, having played out his rookie contract in B'lo and not retained (signed with Cincy)

Ducasse was released August 11, 2019 when it was clear he was way down the depth chart.

 

Teller was an end-of-preseason (August 29) trade to Cincy.   

 

In retrospect, it would have been better to keep and develop Teller vs. Spencer Long, but the Bills were determined to keep a quality OL in front of Allen that year.  Morse was out with a concussion until late in training camp.  The Bills  succumbed to the siren song of "positional flexibility" and kept the vet(s) who had demonstrated ability to play both sides of the line and center in Feliciano and Long, over Teller.

 

The following season Long was out of the league

 

That's how it goes sometimes, but if you go back to late that August where the Bills were determined that Allen would play the season with a better center than Russ Bodine or Ryan Groy, the decision isn't a head-scratcher, it makes logistical sense in that context and I can't say it was wrong.

 

 

[BobbyC81]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

    I think the fact that Allen Doesn’t dump it off shouldn’t be discounted.

    Not saying he isn’t better than Onox but I’m not sure he gets 600 playing for us last year. I assume a ton of those receptions were short yardage completions in a conservative ball control offense.

    Others have stated it but Josh needs to learn to take the dump off . 

 

And Alex Smith dumped it off a lot.  

[MJS]

You aren't going to get them all. Sometimes players need the change of scheme, team, and surrounding talent to have things click. Marshawn Lynch was a great example of that. He ran himself out of Buffalo, still had some issues in Seattle, but finally matured mentally and got his career on track while there. Then he was awesome.

 

Thomas was really raw because of the position change. He needed the time to develop and learn the position. Things clocked for him with his new team.

 

I think it is futile to lament about the ones who got away. It's like complaining about the Bills not taking Tom Brady in the 5th round. You never know how players will turn out when they are drafted, or when they sign somewhere in free agency.

[Mountain Man]

3 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

I think these were two very big misses.  

Let's put it in perspective. It's Logan Thomas, not Travis Kelce. 

[Malazan]

Sometimes, I worry about where humanity is headed and what seems like inevitable destruction of our entire race. This thread cured me of my worry. 

[JGMcD2]

5 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

After seeing Logan Thomas break out with the WFT, my initial thought was how did the staff miss his future development having him in Buffalo for two years.  It's not as if there was a superstar TE that got 90% of the reps.  Of course it reminds you of the Wyatt Teller story as well.  I then decided to put a different spin on it.  Maybe the Bills' staff is the reason he has progressed.  Maybe they deserve a lot of the credit.  Maybe they can do the same with Knox and Sweeney,  

🤦🏼

[Saxum]

2 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

Ahhh, the joy of off season topics.

 

Better than 56 page thread on Eagles TE Ecch.

Truly a MAD thread which was not closed fast enough.

[billsfan89]

Neither player was going to get the snaps needed to produce. That’s what happens when you have a lot of talent some of it escapes to other teams. It is a good problem to have.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

8 hours ago, Maybe Someday said:

There have been plenty of guys over the years that have put up good stats in one season because that team had no one else and they just got lots of reps. Let’s wait to see if he does it a few more years before calling Logan Thomas the missing piece of a championship. 

I didn't say he was the missing piece.  I agree he may very well be a one-hit wonder.  

7 hours ago, Logic said:

These things go both ways.

 

Logan Thomas and Wyatt Teller didn’t do squat here and then broke out elsewhere.

 

On the other hand, current Bills Jerry Hughes, Daryl Williams, Jordan Poyer, and Micah Hyde are all quite good and were all either traded or allowed by their previous teams to walk in Free Agency.

 

Scheme fit, depth chart, opportunity, chemistry...there are a lot of variables that factor into a player’s success or failure with a given team. Painting in broad strokes on this issue is ill-advised.

Good take.  I do think on balance McD's staff seems to coach players up more than not.  As others have said, he may have been getting better just not fast enough and they made the move to draft Knox and Sweeney.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

6 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

Ahhh, the joy of off season topics.

And what?  If you don't like the thread don't read it or don't comment on it.  Logan Thomas was the lead story for the NFL section of ESPN.com today making the thread timely.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

Neither player was going to get the snaps needed to produce. That’s what happens when you have a lot of talent some of it escapes to other teams. It is a good problem to have.

Yes and no.  Teller and Thomas were already on the team when they added more talent at TE and guard.  But you are correct, teh deeper the roseter the more liekly they are to lose a quality player.  This year will be no different i'm sure.  They are usually good for one "IR" draft pick per year.  I'm sure you will see one of the swing tackles or the C/G from the 7th round tweak a calf and be put on IR to stash them for next year.

[Alphadawg7]

10 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

After seeing Logan Thomas break out with the WFT, my initial thought was how did the staff miss his future development having him in Buffalo for two years.  It's not as if there was a superstar TE that got 90% of the reps.  Of course it reminds you of the Wyatt Teller story as well.  I then decided to put a different spin on it.  Maybe the Bills' staff is the reason he has progressed.  Maybe they deserve a lot of the credit.  Maybe they can do the same with Knox and Sweeney,  

 No.  Wasn’t a miss.  You can’t always wait 3-5 years for a player to “break out”.  
 

He was a former QB, it took time for him to bust out and he wasnt very important in Detroit either.  
 

You only have so many roster spots, if a guy isn’t earning the playing time on the practice field or in games, he’s not going to stick around very long.  
 

Wyatt Teller was a developmental player, there are only so many spots for that type of player.  When you cut or trade one, most go on to do nothing, but some will breakout at some point, that’s just the nature of the game.
 

Coaches and GMs can’t see the future, it’s not like Teller was playing anywhere near the level here that he’s playing at now.  We had good players on the OL and he was buried on the depth chart.  An opportunity came to move him for something rather than cut him for nothing or risk losing him for nothing on the PS.  
 

No GM in the history of any sport has ever approached being right on even just half their personnel decisions.  That means there will be guys they didn’t draft that go on to be better than guys they drafted instead…they will cut guys that will go on to be good players on other teams…they will trade guys that exceed the trade compensation at some point.  
 

What makes a great GM is not batting a thousand, it’s consistency and hitting home runs on big swings with key players.  They are still going to be a .350 batter, but that .350 will likely be the best or among the best in the league.  
 

Also, the NFL is heavily driven by scheme and scheme fit.  A guy like McKenzie is a fringe player on most rosters, but in our offense he’s a valuable cog.  And also, opportunity is a major factor as well.  Sometimes players are stuck behind entrenched veterans who they just weren’t ready to unseat, then go to a lesser team where they have more opportunities for lesser established players and that extra playing time allows them to finally break through.  
 

So again, the answer is Nope, we didn’t miss the boat.  We added plenty of other valuable players during those time frames too.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Alphadawg7

[Ethan in Cleveland]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 No.  Wasn’t a miss.  You can’t always wait 3-5 years for a player to “break out”.  
 

He was a former QB, it took time for him to bust out and he wasnt very important in Detroit either.  
 

You only have so many roster spots, if a guy isn’t earning the playing time on the practice field or in games, he’s not going to stick around very long.  
 

Wyatt Teller was a developmental player, there are only so many spots for that type of player.  When you cut or trade one, most go on to do nothing, but some will breakout at some point, that’s just the nature of the game.
 

Coaches and GMs can’t see the future, it’s not like Teller was playing anywhere near the level here that he’s playing at now.  We had good players on the OL and he was buried on the depth chart.  An opportunity came to move him for something rather than cut him for nothing or risk losing him for nothing on the PS.  
 

No GM in the history of any sport has ever approached being right on even just half their personnel decisions.  That means there will be guys they didn’t draft that go on to be better than guys they drafted instead…they will cut guys that will go on to be good players on other teams…they will trade guys that exceed the trade compensation at some point.  
 

What makes a great GM is not batting a thousand, it’s consistency and hitting home runs on big swings with key players.  They are still going to be a .350 batter, but that .350 will likely be the best or among the best in the league.  
 

Also, the NFL is heavily driven by scheme and scheme fit.  A guy like McKenzie is a fringe player on most rosters, but in our offense he’s a valuable cog.  And also, opportunity is a major factor as well.  Sometimes players are stuck behind entrenched veterans who they just weren’t ready to unseat, then go to a lesser team where they have more opportunities for lesser established players and that extra playing time allows them to finally break through.  
 

So again, the answer is Nope, we didn’t miss the boat.  We added plenty of other valuable players during those time frames too.

No one has addressed my other point. Maybe the staff did a good job in developing him but it just took too long to see the finished product.  Heck maybe he completely regresses next year.  Who knows.  

[Bob in STL]

I think these “great player that got away” threads are a testament to our scouting (college and pro).  Beane brings in a lot of talent and good competition every year. 
 

Sometimes a good young player gets away.   It least we can find them.  

Edited June 13, 2021 by Bob in STL

[HardyBoy]

Hopkins was by far the bigger miss and forced the Bills to spend a valuable pick on a kicker.

 

I am a huge Bass fan, but you could almost make an argument that the Bills traded Teller because they spent a 5th on a kicker (edit before it gets called out: Bass and Hopkins were both 6th rd picks), and needed to trade teller to get back the extra pick in a way.

 

Granted, i think Beane knew he wanted to trade a first for a valuable receiver at some point and figured he would need the extra pick for Teller to make the trade work...I doubt it was random that the pick received for Teller was later used in a trade, guessing that was on purpose.

 

Anyway, forget all this other talk of misreading talent...Hopkins might be the biggest talent miss, where the player went on and did great elsewhere that I can recall in many, many years.

Edited June 13, 2021 by HardyBoy

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

Hopkins was by far the bigger miss and forced the Bills to spend a valuable pick on a kicker.

 

I am a huge Bass fan, but you could almost make an argument that the Bills traded Teller because they spent a 5th on a kicker (edit before it gets called out: Bass and Hopkins were both 6th rd picks), and needed to trade teller to get back the extra pick in a way.

 

Granted, i think Beane knew he wanted to trade a first for a valuable receiver at some point and figured he would need the extra pick for Teller to make the trade work...I doubt it was random that the pick received for Teller was later used in a trade, guessing that was on purpose.

 

Anyway, forget all this other talk of misreading talent...Hopkins might be the biggest talent miss, where the player went on and did great elsewhere that I can recall in many, many years.

 

I put Hopkins in the Logan Thomas basket of "was nothing special for years" bin.  He was drafted in 2013 and had no chance to unseat Carpenter, who the Bills had just signed.  And from what I recall, he was terrible.  He was out of football the next 2 seasons and hooked-up with Washington in 2015, a year in which Carpenter was still kicking well.  And a 6th rounder is typically a throwaway pick. 

[Rochesterfan]

27 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

Hopkins was by far the bigger miss and forced the Bills to spend a valuable pick on a kicker.

 

I am a huge Bass fan, but you could almost make an argument that the Bills traded Teller because they spent a 5th on a kicker (edit before it gets called out: Bass and Hopkins were both 6th rd picks), and needed to trade teller to get back the extra pick in a way.

 

Granted, i think Beane knew he wanted to trade a first for a valuable receiver at some point and figured he would need the extra pick for Teller to make the trade work...I doubt it was random that the pick received for Teller was later used in a trade, guessing that was on purpose.

 

Anyway, forget all this other talk of misreading talent...Hopkins might be the biggest talent miss, where the player went on and did great elsewhere that I can recall in many, many years.

 

Are you talking Dustin Hopkins from the 2013 draft - multiple FOs ago.  
 

The miss on Hopkins was so long ago and had no bearing on the other events.  The Teller trade gave additional ammo for Diggs and the extra 6th was used on Bass, but both occurred 9 months after the Teller trade - the Teller trade was not made in anticipation of those moves.

 

Hopkins would of been nice and had beat out Lindell, but got injured just before the start of the season.  The Bills were forced to bring in Carpenter - who has a career year in 2013 and beats out Hopkins in 2014.  Hopkins finally emerged in 2015.  The Bills totally recognized Hopkins talent - which was why he won the job before the injury.  Kicker is a hard place to hang onto a guy after injury - when his replacement goes 33 of 36 and has most kickoffs for touchbacks.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Rochesterfan