BringMetheHeadofLeonLett Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 Maybe there were some devil's advocate debates that Whaley has spun around or something. No way a 40 year scout looks at EJ's college play-by-play and thinks, "Awkward, inconsistent and brutally inaccurate... I've gotta have this guy." EJ Manuel is a pick by someone who saw a few crazy-good plays, got a scouting *****, and no blood left for the upper brain. Whaley
Billy Claude Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 (edited) I think these type of interviews are more of an indication he has given up on getting an NFL job. Throwing your old boss under the bus in public is not going to look good to a perspective employer. One thing that always seem strange to me was how quickly his relations with Marrone, Rex, and McDermott went sour. We know Marrone was against the Watkins trade but he bented over backwards to draft Rex's guys. The hostility with Marrone and Rex seem more personal then professional. Did they think he was source of the leaks that were occurring regularly during this time? Edited June 8, 2021 by Billy Claude
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 Whaley continuously found ways to eliminate competition to make sure EJ kept a roster spot. The guy is full of *****. 1 1
Jauronimo Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said: Whaley continuously found ways to eliminate competition to make sure EJ kept a roster spot. The guy is full of *****. Like what? As I recall Whaley brought in two guys who took EJ's starting job and signed a revolving door of other guys hoping to find a diamond. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 20 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said: If you go back through the archives, you can find posts of people who were adamant that a team has to build its OL before going for a QB. Others were totally against using a 1st round pick on a QB. Many times I would reply that you get the QB 1st & build around him and the best place to find him is in the 1st round of the draft. I was glad that when Beane came here he stated his intention to do exactly what people on my side of the arguments wanted. That would be me. I was one of these people "build the OL first", having lived through St Louis ruining Sam Bradford by putting him behind an OL sieve. I don't think it did Sam Darnold any favors in NYC either. And of course, going in the 'QB first' direction wasn't good for Joe Burrow in Cleveland last season. Of course I agree the best place to find a QB is in the 1st round, preferably high in the 1st round. So there are arguments to be made on both sides. Frankly, I think the Bills got a bit lucky with Josh Allen in that his athleticism and his competitive spirit were both strong enough to surmount working with a crap OL his first season. I think it did teach him some bad habits it took until partway through his second season to coach out. I also think the Bills felt they had a stronger OL in place for their rookie QB than they did. It's notable that they drafted Dawkins as a franchise T and extended Wood as their C in 2017. They may have felt Glenn-Cog-Wood-RG-Dawkins was a solid OL to put a rookie behind - they had drafted Teller in 2018, so maybe they weren't as wedded to Ducasse as it seemed. Losing both Wood and 'Cog that year was a blow. But then of course, Dawkins did pretty well at LT and Beane decided Glenn was a chip he could use to move up for QB. Dawkins-Ducasse-Bodine-Miller-Mills makes me shudder just typing it. Beane has admitted he didn't do enough at OL in 2018.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 On 6/6/2021 at 7:56 PM, Rico said: I don’t blame Whaley for the EJ pick, I put that on Nix. Nix also gets credit for the Robert Woods pick and the Jerry Hughes trade. I do blame Whaley for keeping EJ on the team for 4 years though instead of cutting losses and moving on. Well. That's a key point, isn't it? If EJ wasn't Whaley's pick - and Whaley evaluated EJ as a 3rd or 4th round pick - why didn't Whaley cut his losses and move on from EJ sooner, instead of publicly claiming whoever they hired as HC should commit to developing EJ? Observation: Whaley bleated about the Bills being in "QB purgatory" where they were drafting too low to nail a top QB in the draft but didn't have the QB they needed to compete at a higher level. Meanwhile Beane came in and systematically figured out how to move in the draft to get where he felt we needed to be to draft their desired QB. The Ravens used scouting and coordinated player personnel/scheme/draft choice to identify a talent they could draft late in the 1st and put the right scheme and personnel around them. Two different strategies for getting the job done, neither of which involved sitting there whinging about "QB purgatory" and pointing fingers in other directions. I don't know what Whaley is trying to achieve, but if he's lobbying for a new NFL job he's sawing off the branch behind himself. 3 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said: Whaley continuously found ways to eliminate competition to make sure EJ kept a roster spot. How did he do that? He brought in Orton, who outplayed EJ and put him on the bench. Then when Orton retired (which it appears the Bills/Marrone did not want), he brought in Tyrod Taylor, who again outplayed EJ and kept him on the bench.
Patrick Duffy Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jauronimo said: Like what? As I recall Whaley brought in two guys who took EJ's starting job and signed a revolving door of other guys hoping to find a diamond. Yeah if I remember correctly Whaley wasn't too high on EJ. I don't recall the exact words, or situation, but think he didn't really want EJ starting or whatnot. Think I remember it was kinda an issue with someone kinda forcing it ( I guess you could say) because he was a 1st round pick. I don't recall the details, but I agree with you he wasn't an EJ fan, or it didn't seem that way. Edited June 8, 2021 by Patrick_Duffy 1
DrDawkinstein Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 21 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Getting the QB as soon as possible should have been common sense. Watching them march Edwards back out there and hearing the excuse that they were going to use "that season" to evaluate the roster was disheartening. That roster had been evaluated for 3 years prior. All they needed to do was watch the tape. "As Possible" are the often overlooked key words of the phrase "ASAP" Nix's first draft was 2010. Who should they have drafted in 2010 that they overlooked? 2010 QB Picks: Sam Bradford (picked before Bills) Tim Tebow Jimmy Clausen Colt McCoy Mike Kafka John Skelton Jonathan Crompton Rusty Smith Dan LeFevour Joe Webb Tony Pike Levi Brown (lol) Sean Canfield Zac Robinson UDFA Thad Lewis (double lol) Same can be said for 2011. We had no shot at Newton, and then it's a bunch of JAGs. Mayyybe Andy Dalton, but he's not great. Big miss was obviously in 2012 with trading up for TJ Graham over Russell Wilson in the 3rd. This is the defining moment of the Nix legacy, imo. Maybe Nick Foles or Cousins in that draft too. Those guys are just meh anyways, and our team at the time would have made them just another Trent Edwards. But now we're practically all the way back to 2013. So again, as soon "as possible".
Albany,n.y. Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 I think Sam Bradford's problems were more with his own body than his O-line. The guy was a rich man's Rob Johnson. He was drafted off a year where he lost most of the college season with multiple injuries. I think Sam Darnold's problems at WR were worse than his O-line. He had 1 decent receiver & they let him (Anderson) go to Carolina as a FA. I believe that 2 things happened in Josh's rookie year: 1) Management was blindsided by the loss of both Incognito & Wood and since they were going all in for a QB, using a lot of draft capital to get up to #7 they couldn't fix the OL or get any decent WRs. It was worse than just no O-line since the WRs were the worst group in the league. 2) AJ McCarron was so bad in camp, that Nate Peterman appeared to be the better option. The Bills planned on sitting Josh for at least the 1st half of the season, but McCarron's & Peterman's failures blew up that plan. When Orton retired Marrone quit rather than be stuck with EJ. If the coach didn't want a QB bad enough to quit, that should have told Whaley something. Now it was pretty slim pickings in the 2015 draft as every QB, including the top 2 picks, busted or drastically underachieved. So you can't blame Whaley for passing on any QBs in 2015 in the draft. When Rex came in, he was the driving force behind the Tyrod signing after hearing from his Baltimore connections.
nucci Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 18 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: "As Possible" are the often overlooked key words of the phrase "ASAP" Nix's first draft was 2010. Who should they have drafted in 2010 that they overlooked? 2010 QB Picks: Sam Bradford (picked before Bills) Tim Tebow Jimmy Clausen Colt McCoy Mike Kafka John Skelton Jonathan Crompton Rusty Smith Dan LeFevour Joe Webb Tony Pike Levi Brown (lol) Sean Canfield Zac Robinson UDFA Thad Lewis (double lol) Same can be said for 2011. We had no shot at Newton, and then it's a bunch of JAGs. Mayyybe Andy Dalton, but he's not great. Big miss was obviously in 2012 with trading up for TJ Graham over Russell Wilson in the 3rd. This is the defining moment of the Nix legacy, imo. Maybe Nick Foles or Cousins in that draft too. Those guys are just meh anyways, and our team at the time would have made them just another Trent Edwards. But now we're practically all the way back to 2013. So again, as soon "as possible". impossible to do it sooner😀 2
DrDawkinstein Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 3 minutes ago, nucci said: impossible to do it sooner😀 I had an old boss who LOVED telling people "I'll get on that ASAP" to appease demanding customers/partners, and then kick back and smile and say "who knows when it will be possible though". 🤣 1 1
BADOLBILZ Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 36 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: "As Possible" are the often overlooked key words of the phrase "ASAP" Nix's first draft was 2010. Who should they have drafted in 2010 that they overlooked? 2010 QB Picks: Sam Bradford (picked before Bills) Tim Tebow Jimmy Clausen Colt McCoy Mike Kafka John Skelton Jonathan Crompton Rusty Smith Dan LeFevour Joe Webb Tony Pike Levi Brown (lol) Sean Canfield Zac Robinson UDFA Thad Lewis (double lol) Same can be said for 2011. We had no shot at Newton, and then it's a bunch of JAGs. Mayyybe Andy Dalton, but he's not great. Big miss was obviously in 2012 with trading up for TJ Graham over Russell Wilson in the 3rd. This is the defining moment of the Nix legacy, imo. Maybe Nick Foles or Cousins in that draft too. Those guys are just meh anyways, and our team at the time would have made them just another Trent Edwards. But now we're practically all the way back to 2013. So again, as soon "as possible". No question that Nix and Whaley weren't as QB-fortunate as McDermott and Beane. For McDermott to not pick a QB in his first draft in 2017............using the fundamentally flawed logic that they didn't have time to evaluate them()..........and literally trade away the chance to select Mahomes or Watson and then STILL get a chance at Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson the very next draft was incredibly fortuitous. Effectively trading Mahomes to a conference rival was probably the most regrettable and worst player transaction that the organization has ever or will ever make. But as you said..........Buddy had A chance with Wilson........he missed. You could also argue that Kaepernick was a missed chance. Ultimately it doesn't matter if you get two good chances or only one.........you gotta' get a QB or your body of work is going to look bad. 1
Nihilarian Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 Yea, Whaley was so convinced that EJ wasn't the "guy"... that the next year he traded up to the #4 spot with Cleveland to draft a wide receiver for him that would fix everything. 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: That would be me. I was one of these people "build the OL first", having lived through St Louis ruining Sam Bradford by putting him behind an OL sieve. I don't think it did Sam Darnold any favors in NYC either. And of course, going in the 'QB first' direction wasn't good for Joe Burrow in Cleveland last season. Of course I agree the best place to find a QB is in the 1st round, preferably high in the 1st round. So there are arguments to be made on both sides. Frankly, I think the Bills got a bit lucky with Josh Allen in that his athleticism and his competitive spirit were both strong enough to surmount working with a crap OL his first season. I think it did teach him some bad habits it took until partway through his second season to coach out. I also think the Bills felt they had a stronger OL in place for their rookie QB than they did. It's notable that they drafted Dawkins as a franchise T and extended Wood as their C in 2017. They may have felt Glenn-Cog-Wood-RG-Dawkins was a solid OL to put a rookie behind - they had drafted Teller in 2018, so maybe they weren't as wedded to Ducasse as it seemed. Losing both Wood and 'Cog that year was a blow. But then of course, Dawkins did pretty well at LT and Beane decided Glenn was a chip he could use to move up for QB. Dawkins-Ducasse-Bodine-Miller-Mills makes me shudder just typing it. Beane has admitted he didn't do enough at OL in 2018. And me! After watching many rookie QB's get ruined and destroyed by bad O lines their first years. Bradford, Derek Carr, Joey Harrington among others. Bad coaching and bad surround cast with little to no run game didn't help them either. I'd say the Bills are exceeding lucky that the Bills drafted the right guy in Josh Allen to survive that first season behind that dreadful O line. People forget...2018 Allen going 5-6 in 11 game starts, 10 TDs, 12 INTs. A 52.8 completion percentage. 89 rush attempts for 631 yards, 8 rushing TDs. a 7.1 yard per carry average. Josh's awesome running saved him in many games I realize that Nathan Peterman was drafted in 2017 (before Beane) with a 5th round pick. It still makes wonder who thought Peterman had the talent to start that 2018 season...and against the Blitz crazy Ravens no less. Josh did miss a few weeks due to injury after he was knocked out of the game against the Texans, week 6. Peterman stunk so badly throwing 2 INTs that lost that game 13-20. The next week (week 7) QB Derek Anderson started against the Colts in a 37-5 loss. Against the Patriots the following week the Bills managed to keep Brady out of the end zone in a 25-6 loss on MNF. Anderson suffered a concussion in the game. Week 9, against the Bears in Chicago Peterman got the start and went 31 of 49 for 188 yards, 3 INTs, 4 sacks. 41-9 Loss! Peterman stunk so bad in Chicago that the Bills went to QB Matt Barkley in week 10 against the NY Jets. a 41-10 win! Week 11, Josh Allen was back at QB against the Jags and led the team in rushing 13 rushes for 99 yards. Bills win 21-24. Along with Nathan Peterman, the Buffalo Bills special teams were also pathetic in 2018. The Bills lost a few games due to bad special teams that season.
K-9 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 22 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said: If you go back through the archives, you can find posts of people who were adamant that a team has to build its OL before going for a QB. Others were totally against using a 1st round pick on a QB. Many times I would reply that you get the QB 1st & build around him and the best place to find him is in the 1st round of the draft. I was glad that when Beane came here he stated his intention to do exactly what people on my side of the arguments wanted. Building a team is not a linear process. Especially for teams bereft of talent across the board. You don’t pass on a blue chip OT or DE in favor of a much lower graded QB. And vice versa. That said, and contrary to Whaley’s revisionist history, EJ had been rising up most draft boards over the several months leading up to that draft and was projected as a late first, early second by the time draft day arrived. Similar to Josh Freeman’s arc several years earlier. And while we took him a lot higher at pick 16, there is something to be said for targeting you guy and getting him, regardless. And EJ was INDEED Whaley’s guy. 17 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said: Not to toot my own horn, but I knew that guy was a bust within his first few games. He never looked fluid in his motions at all kind of like an Android imitating a quarterback. You know you're playing like crap when Kyle Orton comes in and looks like Peyton Manning. EJ was schizo when it came to his mechanics. Very compact and efficient above the waist and a total train wreck below. Just horrible footwork and hips. 2
Arm of Harm Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 37 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Effectively trading Mahomes to a conference rival was probably the most regrettable and worst player transaction that the organization has ever or will ever make. There's a strong argument to be made for the Losman pick having been the worst player transaction the organization has ever made. In the 2004 draft, TD had wanted to trade up for Roethlisberger. But he decided that the price for doing so would have been too high, so instead he stayed put and took Lee Evans (WR) 13th overall. He then traded back into the first for Losman (QB, 20th overall). To accomplish that trade he surrendered his 2nd round pick for 2004 and his 1st round pick for 2005. In the 2005 draft, the Packers drafted Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers was drafted after where the Bills' first round pick would have been, had they not traded it away. Nor did TD have any reason to try to trade into the first round of the 2005 draft for Rodgers, because he believed his quarterback of the future was already on the roster. Had TD realized that Losman would be a bust, there is a strong chance he would have either a) sucked it up and paid the high price for Roethlisberger, or b) waited a year, then drafted Rodgers. Either way you're missing out on a Hall of Fame quarterback. Of the two I'd rather have had Rodgers. But had the Bills taken either player, they would have been set at the quarterback position for the next 15 years. Instead, they endured 12 years of quarterback purgatory, before finally doing something right and drafting Josh Allen. 12 years down the drain, all because of TD's failure to realize that Losman would be a bust.
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well. That's a key point, isn't it? If EJ wasn't Whaley's pick - and Whaley evaluated EJ as a 3rd or 4th round pick - why didn't Whaley cut his losses and move on from EJ sooner, instead of publicly claiming whoever they hired as HC should commit to developing EJ? Observation: Whaley bleated about the Bills being in "QB purgatory" where they were drafting too low to nail a top QB in the draft but didn't have the QB they needed to compete at a higher level. Meanwhile Beane came in and systematically figured out how to move in the draft to get where he felt we needed to be to draft their desired QB. The Ravens used scouting and coordinated player personnel/scheme/draft choice to identify a talent they could draft late in the 1st and put the right scheme and personnel around them. Two different strategies for getting the job done, neither of which involved sitting there whinging about "QB purgatory" and pointing fingers in other directions. I don't know what Whaley is trying to achieve, but if he's lobbying for a new NFL job he's sawing off the branch behind himself. How did he do that? He brought in Orton, who outplayed EJ and put him on the bench. Then when Orton retired (which it appears the Bills/Marrone did not want), he brought in Tyrod Taylor, who again outplayed EJ and kept him on the bench. Whaley constantly kept the qb competition at zero to ensure EJ could get playing time. He got rid of Fitz right away when he could have easily brought him back to complete and help teach. The other veteran qb they brought in was a complete bum like Kevin Kolb. Then afterwards, the backups were Jeff Tuel and Thad Lewis. I’m not even going further into this. The rock bottom of my days as a bills fan were dealing with EJ manuel. Literally fighting about him almost every day. The guy was complete trash and was one of the biggest busts in Bills history. He was outplayed by nearly everyone else that was given a chance. He had all the physical tools and did absolutely nothing with them. The guy was at his best in his first 2 games. That shows he was either lazy or had no clue how to work to improve. I’m so happy he’s gone. He was the complete opposite of Josh Allen. I ended up being right all along about EJ but I don’t have it in me to go back through it all over again. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Yeah if I remember correctly Whaley wasn't too high on EJ. I don't recall the exact words, or situation, but think he didn't really want EJ starting or whatnot. Think I remember it was kinda an issue with someone kinda forcing it ( I guess you could say) because he was a 1st round pick. I don't recall the details, but I agree with you he wasn't an EJ fan, or it didn't seem that way. I don't want to argue with your memory, but my memory features Whaley extolling EJ at various PR events for fans; Whaley trading up to draft a #1 WR in the hope of making EJ better (along the lines of the Dalton to Green connection); Whaley being seen arguing with Marrone just before Orton was brought in - allegedly about the feasibility of starting EJ; Whaley saying publicly that the next head coach (after Marrone) should commit to developing EJ as the Bills QB. Now maybe he had a skull implant prompting him to all these words and actions. Or maybe the notion that Whaley was against drafting EJ and considered him a 3rd or 4th round pick is revisionist. 1
Mat68 Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well. That's a key point, isn't it? If EJ wasn't Whaley's pick - and Whaley evaluated EJ as a 3rd or 4th round pick - why didn't Whaley cut his losses and move on from EJ sooner, instead of publicly claiming whoever they hired as HC should commit to developing EJ? Observation: Whaley bleated about the Bills being in "QB purgatory" where they were drafting too low to nail a top QB in the draft but didn't have the QB they needed to compete at a higher level. Meanwhile Beane came in and systematically figured out how to move in the draft to get where he felt we needed to be to draft their desired QB. The Ravens used scouting and coordinated player personnel/scheme/draft choice to identify a talent they could draft late in the 1st and put the right scheme and personnel around them. Two different strategies for getting the job done, neither of which involved sitting there whinging about "QB purgatory" and pointing fingers in other directions. I don't know what Whaley is trying to achieve, but if he's lobbying for a new NFL job he's sawing off the branch behind himself. How did he do that? He brought in Orton, who outplayed EJ and put him on the bench. Then when Orton retired (which it appears the Bills/Marrone did not want), he brought in Tyrod Taylor, who again outplayed EJ and kept him on the bench. Same Era Wilson and Dak were drafted later in the draft. Players are all over you just have to find them. Hearing him talk takes me back to the clown car the franchise was. In fighting, media leaks. It was a disaster and Whaley was in the center of it. Edited June 8, 2021 by Mat68 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 4 minutes ago, Mat68 said: Same Era Wilson and Dak were drafted later in the draft. Players are all over you just have to find them. Hearing him talk takes me back to the clown car the franchise was. In fighting, media leaks. It was a disaster and Whaley was in the center of it. I actually think Russ Brandon was at the center of it and life got better when Brandon got gone 1
Rico Posted June 8, 2021 Posted June 8, 2021 48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I actually think Russ Brandon was at the center of it and life got better when Brandon got gone No doubt it got better when Brandon left… but it all started with Ralph. Everyone who fell under his organizational tree of woe had to go.
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