Tiberius Posted June 20, 2021 Author Posted June 20, 2021 21 minutes ago, Capco said: I see what you're saying but it's more nuanced than that. Different branches of social science can be used as tools that help people directly, like psychology for example (well, psychology isn't exactly a social science but it can be considered one). And I think you're presenting a false premise when you compare CRT to the Lost Cause narrative. I've been able to put that sh*t down hard in the past without ever bringing up CRT, or before I even knew of CRT. Well, I plead ignorance as an excuse. No clue what CRT exactly is. I do know that racial theories have played a critical role in American history. And judging by the Conservative reaction against this thing (CRT) I cant help but feel it has more to do with hiding the past. 1
BillStime Posted June 20, 2021 Posted June 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Well, I plead ignorance as an excuse. No clue what CRT exactly is. I do know that racial theories have played a critical role in American history. And judging by the Conservative reaction against this thing (CRT) I cant help but feel it has more to do with hiding the past. And continue the status quo of hate and supremacy.
Tiberius Posted June 20, 2021 Author Posted June 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, BillStime said: This is exactly how I see it.
Chef Jim Posted June 20, 2021 Posted June 20, 2021 4 hours ago, BillStime said: Who’s asking them to stop teaching our history? Your memes are very much like your debate tactics. Failures.
Chef Jim Posted June 20, 2021 Posted June 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: Well, I plead ignorance as an excuse. No clue what CRT exactly is. I do know that racial theories have played a critical role in American history. And judging by the Conservative reaction against this thing (CRT) I cant help but feel it has more to do with hiding the past. Why are you claiming an ignorance stance when it’s so easy to do your research and learn? Are too afraid of what you might find out? Ignorance is only blissful to the ignorant.
Capco Posted June 20, 2021 Posted June 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Tiberius said: Well, I plead ignorance as an excuse. No clue what CRT exactly is. I do know that racial theories have played a critical role in American history. And judging by the Conservative reaction against this thing (CRT) I cant help but feel it has more to do with hiding the past. On 6/18/2021 at 11:27 PM, Capco said: But the more I read about some of the specific views that are espoused in search of this goal, the more I just cannot get behind CRT as anything more than something to get you thinking. I meant to expand on this but I got tired and never actually touched on the specifics that trouble me. I'm just gonna copy/paste from the Wiki page on CRT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory), but this page has been watched like a hawk by Wiki's editors lately so I'm pretty sure most of the information on here is accurate. The sources, which I will list at the end, seem legit. Quote Critique of liberalism: Critical race theory scholars question foundational liberal concepts such as Enlightenment rationalism, legal equality, and Constitutional neutrality, and challenge the incrementalist approach of traditional civil-rights discourse.[13] They favor a race-conscious approach to social transformation, critiquing liberal ideas such as affirmative action, color blindness, role modeling, or the merit principle[29] with an approach that relies more on political organizing, in contrast to liberalism's reliance on rights-based remedies. First, let's get this "liberal/ism" thing out of the way for the people that see the word and immediately cry foul. In this context it is not a reference to modern day political party ideology, so leave that at the door please. Anyway, my reservations with CRT begin with scholars that question concepts like rationalism, legal equality, and Constitutional neutrality. These are, imo, extremely important concepts. The implementation of these concepts is necessary for democracy to function at a high level. Furthermore, critiquing ideas like color blindness, role modeling, and the merit principle leave me scratching my head. For example, I don't understand how one can attack the concept of colorblindness. Every single child is born colorblind. If you put 10 toddlers in a room with toys and observe them, they will all start to play with each other irrespective of skin color. They haven't learned about race yet. And rational thought is exactly what brought me to this conclusion. But this is also where the food for thought part of CRT can come into play. For example, if the above reasoning is true, and race isn't a "real" thing, then someone else might come along and say "racism cannot be a real thing if race itself isn't a real thing." Yet we all know that racism is very much a real phenomenon. Quote Revisionist interpretations of American civil rights law and progress: Criticism of civil-rights scholarship and anti-discrimination law, such as Brown v. Board of Education. Derrick Bell, one of CRT's founders, argues that civil-rights advances for black people coincided with the self-interest of white elitists. Likewise, Mary L. Dudziak performed extensive archival research in the U.S. Department of State and Department of Justice, including the correspondence by U.S. ambassadors abroad, and concluded that U.S. civil-rights legislation was not passed because people of color were discriminated against; rather, it was enacted in order to improve the image of the United States in the eyes of third-world countries that the US needed as allies during the Cold War.[32] Criticize Brown v. Board of Education... okay. That doesn't exactly put you in good company. But the underlined part is... well, tbh it sounds like quite a stretch. Quote Non-white cultural nationalism/separatism: The exploration of more radical views that argue for separation and reparations as a form of foreign aid (including black nationalism).[30] Reparations is something I have no problem with. But separation? Black nationalism? Are these not divisive stances to take? If black nationalism is okay, then is white nationalism okay too? If not, then there is inherent hypocrisy. And if so, then that ultimately sounds kinda... well, racist, doesn't it? Also note that these quotes are from Views/Common Themes section, and not the Criticism section of the article. Another view CRT holds is the use of storytelling to "name one's own reality." Critics argue that this view, combined with a rejection of merit and rational thought, ends up elevating storytelling over reason and evidence. The following quotes are from the Criticism section, which I believe are pretty self-explanatory. Quote In the Boston College Law Review, Jeffrey Pyle argues that critical race theory undermines confidence in the rule of law, saying that "critical race theorists attack the very foundations of the liberal legal order, including equality theory, legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism, and neutral principles of constitutional law".[51] Quote Judge Richard Posner of the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals argued in 1997 that critical race theory "turns its back on the Western tradition of rational inquiry, forswearing analysis for narrative", and that "by repudiating reasoned argumentation, [critical race theorists] reinforce stereotypes about the intellectual capacities of nonwhites."[9] Former Judge Alex Kozinski, who served on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, criticized critical race theorists in 1997 for raising "insuperable barriers to mutual understanding" and thus eliminating opportunities for "meaningful dialogue".[52] Sources: [9] "The Skin Trade", Richard Posner, 1997 [13] "Critical race theory: An Introduction", Delgado and Stefancic, 2017 [29, 30, 32] "Critical Race Theory: An Annotated Bibliography", Delgado and Stefancic, 1993 [51] "Race, Equality and the Rule of Law: Critical Race Theory's Attack on the Promises of Liberalism", Jeffrey Pyle, 1999 [52] "Bending the Law", Alex Kozinski, 1997 1 1
SoCal Deek Posted June 20, 2021 Posted June 20, 2021 The very premise of CRT is all wrong. It’s a simple matter of cause and effect. The country doesn’t suffer from systemic racism....it ‘suffers’ from systemic capitalism. Now, it just so happens that blacks find themselves at the low end of the economic ladder...but it’s certainly not from racism. It’s been caused from decades of well intentioned but horrible liberal social policies. In a nutshell!
Buffalo716 Posted June 20, 2021 Posted June 20, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, BillStime said: The problem with this tweet is everything needs context America was still segregated in 1946.. that doesn't make it right, but it was federally segregated.. schools teach that, they don't lie about it And there was no language in the GI Bill denoting race at all.. what there was, was Jim crow in the south So a racist representative (John Rankin), basically made it status quo.. he made sure the states lingo was put in... sure all GIs could get college grants.. but black people can only get them to Black universities because segregation The GI Bill gave home loans.. but black people couldn't get a loan in a white neighborhood because segregation It was all because of one lead sponsor of the bill who was deeply racist.. the media would want you to believe that all white people are racist.. it's literally a minute number The media would want you to think that all whites are descended from slave owners.. truth is only 10% of US families owned slaves There's a lot of stuff in this country's history to not be proud about.. you could say the same about every country on Earth.. But the vast majority of people in this country are not some backwoods racist.. there's a reason why millions of Union troops were willing to die to free the slaves They didn't agree ( I always thought my history degree was worthless but I get to use it occasionally ) Edited June 20, 2021 by Buffalo716 2
Frat-Train Posted June 20, 2021 Posted June 20, 2021 This side of the forum is just... icky, but... As someone who’s sat through some of the elements of CRT, I’d like to suggest it’s really poorly reflected in this “left vs right vs the world” thread. I’m sure behind these keyboards are reasonable people that would like an honest perspective. Our reason tends to vanish when our passions get the better of us, but here goes... My experience with CRT in corporate deployment was enlightening. I’m of Portuguese decent, so I’m of no cultural allegiance to anyone. What I found most enlightening is not just how opposite it is to everything before it, (judge not on appearance, people are not inherently evil, but learn to be, etc), but how far the core concepts had to be stretched to even seemingly make the furthest part of the theory, work. I’d even go as far to say that our facilitator never stuck her landing. Make no mistake, the entry into the theory and backstory is interesting and there’s so much more we can do to learn from our past, to shape the future. But not at behest of instilling prejudices to combat supposed prejudices, deduced solely by appearance. Any subject that teaches its audience how to become what it opposes doesn’t stand on its own merits, IMO. This is as close to being taught how to be racist as I’d truly like to ever be. I kept waiting for our facilitator to say something like, “So that feeling your feeling right now, after sitting through all of this, is all you’ll need to ever remember before subjecting anyone you meet, to what we’ve subjected you to. THAT’s Critical Race Theory!” But THAT didn’t happen. The content delivered was dead serious and made my group worse than how they found us. 2
JaCrispy Posted June 20, 2021 Posted June 20, 2021 (edited) The sad part about CRT is that, even if there is some truth about what it teaches, the prescribed solution (more racism and discrimination) causes people to reject the theory in its entirety...a Furthermore, how does CRT work in countries that aren’t primarily Caucasian? Are Asians the oppressors in predominantly Asian countries? Are blacks the oppressors in predominantly black countries? Are Latinos the oppressors in predominantly Latino countries? And are white people the oppressed? Edited June 20, 2021 by JaCrispy
SoCal Deek Posted June 20, 2021 Posted June 20, 2021 50 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: The sad part about CRT is that, even if there is some truth about what it teaches, the prescribed solution (more racism and discrimination) causes people to reject the theory in its entirety...a Furthermore, how does CRT work in countries that aren’t primarily Caucasian? Are Asians the oppressors in predominantly Asian countries? Are blacks the oppressors in predominantly black countries? Are Latinos the oppressors in predominantly Latino countries? And are white people the oppressed? Common Denominator: The rich are the oppressors and the poor are the oppressed...every time. It’s simple really.
Tiberius Posted June 20, 2021 Author Posted June 20, 2021 Surprised this example has not been used in discussing wrongs of the past https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-international-news-western-europe-germany-europe-fe70a989c90101e79ff8ee4d9abcf7b0 59 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: The sad part about CRT is that, even if there is some truth about what it teaches, the prescribed solution (more racism and discrimination) causes people to reject the theory in its entirety...a Furthermore, how does CRT work in countries that aren’t primarily Caucasian? Are Asians the oppressors in predominantly Asian countries? Are blacks the oppressors in predominantly black countries? Are Latinos the oppressors in predominantly Latino countries? And are white people the oppressed? What does it teach?
Buffalo716 Posted June 20, 2021 Posted June 20, 2021 2 hours ago, JaCrispy said: The sad part about CRT is that, even if there is some truth about what it teaches, the prescribed solution (more racism and discrimination) causes people to reject the theory in its entirety...a Furthermore, how does CRT work in countries that aren’t primarily Caucasian? Are Asians the oppressors in predominantly Asian countries? Are blacks the oppressors in predominantly black countries? Are Latinos the oppressors in predominantly Latino countries? And are white people the oppressed? The biggest thing I can take from your post... Is that people from Asian countries, African countries, Middle Eastern countries, and Latino countries ALL come to the United States of America en masse And the majority of them succeed That's all you need to know about minorities being actively oppressed in this country.. they flock here en masse
JaCrispy Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: Surprised this example has not been used in discussing wrongs of the past https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-international-news-western-europe-germany-europe-fe70a989c90101e79ff8ee4d9abcf7b0 What does it teach? It teaches that various identity groups are forever competing to dominate other identity groups... Edited June 21, 2021 by JaCrispy
Tiberius Posted June 21, 2021 Author Posted June 21, 2021 14 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: It teaches that various identity groups are forever competing to dominate other identity groups... From a black persons point of view, that has been their experience.
JaCrispy Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tiberius said: From a black persons point of view, that has been their experience. Oh? Are you black? Because I really hope you’re not a white dude trying to tell me what my point of view and experience has been or should be- because I do not feel like anything you describe... Edited June 21, 2021 by JaCrispy 1 2
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 8 hours ago, Tiberius said: Well, I plead ignorance as an excuse. No clue what CRT exactly is. I do know that racial theories have played a critical role in American history. And judging by the Conservative reaction against this thing (CRT) I cant help but feel it has more to do with hiding the past. Tibs in a nutshell; Don’t understand what I am advocating for, but doing what my mind Sheppard tells me to. the technical definition is useful idiot 2 1
Tiberius Posted June 21, 2021 Author Posted June 21, 2021 11 hours ago, JaCrispy said: Oh? Are you black? Because I really hope you’re not a white dude trying to tell me what my point of view and experience has been or should be- because I do not feel like anything you describe... Lol, that has been the African American experience in the USA. That’s the history. And I am telling you.
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